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Author Topic: Arilou and the Orz: What's the Deal? *spoilers*  (Read 76352 times)
Doctuh_Jay
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Re: Arilou and the Orz: What's the Deal? *spoilers
« Reply #30 on: December 11, 2002, 12:18:53 am »

Oh, and about the Orz not being about to smell you, he means that you don't know too much so he isn't going to kill you or feed you to the Eternal1s early or whatever they did to the Androsynth and Supox
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Re: Arilou and the Orz: What's the Deal? *spoilers
« Reply #31 on: December 11, 2002, 12:26:45 am »

Just before the Eternal1 arrival is the WORST time to attack if you work for them!

There is absolutely NO reason why the Eternal1s would want less food!  Killing people just before the harvest makes no sense at all!

As for talking about the Taalo, that's easily explained a hundred other ways.  The Taalo went through *the change*, the Orz ALWAYS speak in present tense, etc.

There is one more OVERWHELMING reason why the Orz have nothing to do with the Eternal1s:  the Eteral1s came from SC3.  NOT TFB.  Therefore, this entire debate is moot since nothing that comes from SC3 is part of the *real* timeline!
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Re: Arilou and the Orz: What's the Deal? *spoilers
« Reply #32 on: December 11, 2002, 12:32:43 am »

First of all, the Orz didn't want to wipe out humans, just kill you because they got worried. How else do you explain them attacking you at such a time? Also, I could be dead wrong, but perhaps TFB had basic plot idea involving the eternal1s and even if they didn't the game was decent. It's just looked at poorly because it had so much to live up to and was only good instead of great. I have a somewhat unique perspective in this because with the exception of some hazy memories of time long gone, I played SCIII first. If TFB makes another sequel it should not ignore SCIII. They should just make the next one as good as the second and leave the third one be because it was still worth playing and finishing, and I've played through it about as many times as I have with SCII (I've lost count).
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Re: Arilou and the Orz: What's the Deal? *spoilers
« Reply #33 on: December 11, 2002, 12:49:48 am »

Is there any connection between the *Nggn* and the Orzine cry of anger *Nnnnggaaahhhhh!*?
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Re: Arilou and the Orz: What's the Deal? *spoilers
« Reply #34 on: December 11, 2002, 12:58:38 am »

Another excellent point! Maybe the Arilou anmed them that after the shouts they make when they catch them for brief periods.
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Re: Arilou and the Orz: What's the Deal? *spoilers
« Reply #35 on: December 11, 2002, 01:14:23 am »

I never treid to say SC3 was a bad game, just that it wasn't TFB and not part of the real timeline.

Also, your idea of TFB independently coming up with the Orz being summoners is pure speculation.  How can they be put there to summon someone if they couldn't even *smell* our *level*?

besides which, TFB has many times indicated that what was done in SC3 is not what they had in mind for the plot.

I also played SC3 before SC or SC2, and I saw absolutely no link between the Orz and the Eternal1s.  Sure, they seem to have some ulterior motive, but you just have to remember that, originally, there was no "Eternal1s" idea.
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Re: Arilou and the Orz: What's the Deal? *spoilers
« Reply #36 on: December 11, 2002, 03:18:53 am »

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And, according to common sense, the only way we could be different is that we were not able to see what the Arilou did to our DNA. So, when we copied our DNA, and made the Androsynth, their DNA was the same as ours was before the Arilou came along.


Common sense dictates totally opposite.

If you make changes to information (whether it is a computer program, biological program aka. DNA or anything else), and after that make copy of that, the copy WILL include the changes made.

Nah. The androsyn did have arilou's *smell* modifications on them just as much as the humans, but their IDF experimentations somehow nullified the effect.
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Re: Arilou and the Orz: What's the Deal? *spoilers
« Reply #37 on: December 11, 2002, 03:40:36 am »

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Well see that's where I think you're wrong. The Pkunk say that they had a vision where large rocks will come to life by an explosion. The only explosion we know of is when we use the Ultron to destroy the Sa-Matra.

The Pkunk are not especially well known for being overly clear.
This might be a reference to the birth of Chmmr for all we know. Activation of the Sun Device would very well qualify as an explosion (of light).

BTW. The precursor bomb used to destroy thhe Sa-Matra is NOT the Ultron. Latter is not used to destroy anything, only given to the Utwig so they stop thinking mass-suicide and give us the real bomb.

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Which would be why their Warp Pod was able to be modified to enter Quasi-Space (it had some technology taught to them by the Taalo, but the Taalo disappeared before they were willing to completely share all the details with them).


I don't see any reason in game context to believe that Ur-Quan warp pods have anything special to them (they refer to it as being "sufficiently powerful", not having any special technology). ANY warp pod could be modified to become a Quasi-Space pod, Ur-Quan pods just happen to be only ones big enough to be of use on ship as massive as the flagship. The flagships own pod probably could've been used, but then you wouldn't have any hyperspace engines left!
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Re: Arilou and the Orz: What's the Deal? *spoilers
« Reply #38 on: December 11, 2002, 06:33:36 am »

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Hey Zeroarmy,

that Pkunk vision is about when you finish the Process!

on the other hand, I'm not saying its impossible for them to be alive.  I'm just saying its not as likely as some think.


Oh yeah you're right. I just checked it again and it says it's an explosion of light. Too many things about SC too keep strait.  Tongue

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When did they hint that the Arilou created the Syreen? Maybe they did, but if so, then they must have decided that because 99% of thier race was dead, there was no point in protecting the rest. Also, they DID lie about modifying us to protect us. That was their excuse but the real reason was for the DNA. And the reason they didn't evolve was because of Quasi-Space, and that's what I meant. Quasi-Space apparently is diffirent from True-Space enough so that they couldn't evolve properly.


Don't you get it? TFB didn't come up with all of that dialog from SCII just to throw us off. SCIII changed the entire plot and they used their little understanding of SCII to make up lame excuses (ie: "We lied").

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And to those who think the Taalo were alive, they aren't. They were supposed to watch all the other races up to the point that the galaxy had reached its zenith in sentience, and then summon the Eternal1s to come and harvest them all. The taalo were killed, so the Orz took thier place. The *nggh* are likely the Orz, and they trap them to learn about them to find a way to defeat the Eternal1s but let them go, probably before they call the Eternal1s for help or something. It's not hard to piece together. The Orz join you so quick because they want to stop the Kohr-Ah from killing all the sentients and thus wasting the Eternal1s food.


Ok you people are driving me nuts. People in this board don't want to hear about what happened in SCIII. It's not real for post of them. They want to know what TFB (the creators of SCI and SCII) had in mind for their version of SCIII (what would've been if they made it). Now I doubt TFB will go around answering our questions, so it's up to us to use the little bit of information, that we have, to come up with theories. Like I said before, SCIII took alot of plots and ruined them...Mstr already posted few lines from a chat where Fred and Paul said the Taalo are alive. So, again, whatever SCIII said did not really happen. It's like a someone taking information, from a fanfic, and saying that all that information is what will really happened in SCIV (see how silly that sounds?).
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Re: Arilou and the Orz: What's the Deal? *spoilers
« Reply #39 on: December 11, 2002, 07:29:02 am »

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First of all, the Orz didn't want to wipe out humans, just kill you because they got worried. How else do you explain them attacking you at such a time? Also, I could be dead wrong, but perhaps TFB had basic plot idea involving the eternal1s and even if they didn't the game was decent. It's just looked at poorly because it had so much to live up to and was only good instead of great. I have a somewhat unique perspective in this because with the exception of some hazy memories of time long gone, I played SCIII first. If TFB makes another sequel it should not ignore SCIII. They should just make the next one as good as the second and leave the third one be because it was still worth playing and finishing, and I've played through it about as many times as I have with SCII (I've lost count).


You know I'm getting sick of this; "They had so much to live up with," crap. It would be one thing if TFB made the game and it didn't match up to SCII (they would never ruin the plot though). But, it's another thing when someone, who knows very little about SC, takes their ideas, that took them a total of 3 seconds to come up with, and burns down a great game. What you ask? Well there are many reasons, but to save time I'll only talk about the problems that bugged me the most. Firstly, ships...

Ok as we all know there are 2 new ships that will give you back your crew. First, is the Harika/Yorn. Whenever you use your secondary weapon they lose some crew and it slowly builds back it's crew. Now I can understand that the Yorn breed quickly, but there's no way that they can have sex, give birth, and raise their child to adulthood all in 20 seconds. Especially when you're supposed to be in the middle of a battle! Second, is the Doog. Now I played SCI for years, before I even heard of SCII, so I would play with every single ship and because of that I got to know them all very well. In the beginning I would have to make up my own little stories for them, because all I had was the game (I think someone copied the game for my brother). Then I bought the Sega game and read through the Manuel. One of the first things I read was why the Mycon were able to regenerate their crew and I was very happy with this explanation. Well, time passes and I buy SCIII, only to read the manful and see that the Doog can repair their hull! Well I played the game and realized it's not something like the Slylandro probe of SCII where they take damage points (that's why the crew bar is grey). Instead the crew bar is completely green and every time you repair your hull you get a crew member back (it's the stupidest thing ever done to SC). Anyway, I could go on about other ships, but let's move on to the plot, since that's what this topic is about...

As I've said the Arilou, Taalo, Human, and Syreen plots are written by 5 year Olds. The others are bad too, but I'm going to complain about the flagship today. According to SCII the Captain went back to Vela II and built another flagship. Come on, that's just like those guys at the Timewarp forums. There was a whole thread about how you should go back to Vela and build another. What I found funny was that nobody tried to go back to Vela in the game. According to the story, that you read when you first start the game, you are supposed to return to Earth and send a ship for them. So, that the first thing I tried to do in my very first game. I found it a bit well hidden, (probably done on purpose) but halfway through I was able to find it. Well when I got to my beloved home I found an Ur-Quan Dreadnought guarding a slave-shielded world. When you talk to him he'll say that he saw my hyperspace single and was able to track it back to here. And now the baby has returned to the nest to die, or something like that. Well anyway, since when do the Ur-Quan allow their slaves to have Precursor technology to free themselves with? And don't give me that; "They couldn't find it" nonsense. The Ur-Quan used to find Precursor technology for a living and in SCIII they said that when they blew up something far below the Arctic surface and something else that was far below the ocean's floor, it was Precursor technology. So, finding all the technology should've been easy for them. Especially after the original factory was blown up by the colonists (remember they place nukes in the cave in case the hierarcy found them). Now instead of going on to rant about what they did to the Pkunk and Supox, let's move on to graphics...

Ok now this is going to short rant, but you can't honestly tell me you liked the way the game looked? The ships looked dark and grey, while the aliens looked like dried up fruit. For example: The Syreen looked like old women (they didn't even have hair) and Humans looked like Starship troopers (what the hell! is it that hard to stick with the uniform from SCI?). Lastly, we move on to SCIII as a whole...

*Sigh*I'm normally not one who rants about SCIII, but then again this is the first SC forums I've posted in, but anyway  what I can't understand is why people can't bring it up when it's clear the guy wants to know what would've happened if TFB made SCIII. You're basically asking to get flamed for your ideas. Anyway, I've said it before and I'll say it again. SCIII wasn't made by TFB as such there are many mistakes and problems with it. It's fine if you like that, but you can't honestly tell me that the things, which I've brought up thus far, make sense with the rest of SC. Like the Arilou, Orz, (yes they were supposed to be creepy but they're not stupid enough to work for the Eternal One's when they can simply hide in other dimensions to escape from them) Taalo, Precursors, etc. Instead of listing things, I'm asking you to just sit down and think about it. Play SCII and then SCIII and see if it really makes sense to you.
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Re: Arilou and the Orz: What's the Deal? *spoilers
« Reply #40 on: December 11, 2002, 07:46:26 am »

Legend has it that Franz Kafka used to read literary analyses of his writings, and laugh heartily at them.

Issac Asimov is credited with saying that if he were to take a college course on his own works, he would likely fail it.  (most likely apocryphal, and also credited to William Shakespeare)

In a similar vein, I can only imagine the reaction of one Mr. Fred Ford to threads like this.

That makes me smile.  Keep it up.  Smiley
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Re: Arilou and the Orz: What's the Deal? *spoilers
« Reply #41 on: December 11, 2002, 07:51:38 am »

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Is there any connection between the *Nggn* and the Orzine cry of anger *Nnnnggaaahhhhh!*?


I was thinking about that when I first played, but I think it's because they have interacted a lot in the past and so their language has similar roots.

Quote


Common sense dictates totally opposite.

If you make changes to information (whether it is a computer program, biological program aka. DNA or anything else), and after that make copy of that, the copy WILL include the changes made.

Nah. The androsyn did have arilou's *smell* modifications on them just as much as the humans, but their IDF experimentations somehow nullified the effect.


We're not talking about real life common sense, we're talking about game common sense. Real common sense would say that it's impossible that so many sentient life forms could exist, especially when they're so close to each other. But, here we are playing this game. Anyway, my point was that the Arilou, with their ADVANCED technology had done something to our DNA to change our *smell.* Now do we know what *smell* is or even how it interacts with our DNA? No of course not. So, when our scientists, with their newly invented technology used their small microscopes and other things, to look at our DNA and make a copy of it, they were not able to see what the Arilou did. Remember, back in the day, we didn't even know that germs existed because we didn't have the technology to prove it. Anyway, my point is that it's possible that it was an idea that TFB came up with, but without any game proof we'll never know for sure.
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Re: Arilou and the Orz: What's the Deal? *spoilers
« Reply #42 on: December 11, 2002, 08:39:23 am »

A note on the Harika/Yorn ship, Zeroarmy.

This ship has one Harika and a bunch of Yorn.  Now the Harkia breed slowly, yes, but the Yorn?  They breed like Tribbles!

I mean, the guy eats about 5 of them every conversation!

So do I believe that the Yorn could increase their numbers every 20 seconds?  Yes, espescially if they have some sort of metabolic stimulant they use in battle.  Remember that we are talking about more Yorn, not more Harika.

As for the Doof, well, I basically think that the bums who made 3 screwed up, and didn't want to bother with different colored bars.  If it makes more sense to you, think of it as a grey bar.

On the Arilou:

FACT: The Arilou altered humanity's *smell*.
FACT: Humanity cannot detect these changes.
FACT: Humans made EXACT copies when creating the Androsynth.
INESCAPABLE CONCLUSION: The Androsynth DNA had to include the modifications, because our scientists wouldn't be ABLE to leave them out, even if they wanted to!

The Androsynth were just poking their heads into the Lovecraftian.  They paid the price, one way or another.
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Re: Arilou and the Orz: What's the Deal? *spoilers
« Reply #43 on: December 11, 2002, 09:13:28 am »

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A note on the Harika/Yorn ship, Zeroarmy.

This ship has one Harika and a bunch of Yorn.  Now the Harkia breed slowly, yes, but the Yorn?  They breed like Tribbles!

I mean, the guy eats about 5 of them every conversation!

So do I believe that the Yorn could increase their numbers every 20 seconds?  Yes, espescially if they have some sort of metabolic stimulant they use in battle.  Remember that we are talking about more Yorn, not more Harika.

As for the Doof, well, I basically think that the bums who made 3 screwed up, and didn't want to bother with different colored bars.  If it makes more sense to you, think of it as a grey bar.


Yes I get that it's the Yorn (remember I said; "Yes I know the Yorn breed quickly, but 20 seconds, come on!"). The thing is that they would not only have to be able to learn quickly, but they would have to grow at a rapid rate. Such is not possible for any animal known in SC or in real life. I would get if their crew would regenerate after a battle, (like the Mycon in the full game version of SCI) but 20 seconds just seems way too little time for someone like the Yorn. I don't know if it's SCIII's lack of explainning it or it really is stupid, but I just don't like the way it was done. And having them thrown into a furnace, or whatever they use, to get a speed burst doesn't seem like them either. The Druuge or insane and that's why they do it, but even the Harika are not mean enough to do that (SCIII said they respected the Yorn, but they eat them because they had to do so to live and the Yorn understood that without the Harika they would kill themselfs via overpopulation).

As for the Doog, it's not that simple, but oh well. I was just trying to make a point, that TFB would never do something like that.

Quote
On the Arilou:

FACT: The Arilou altered humanity's *smell*.
FACT: Humanity cannot detect these changes.
FACT: Humans made EXACT copies when creating the Androsynth.
INESCAPABLE CONCLUSION: The Androsynth DNA had to include the modifications, because our scientists wouldn't be ABLE to leave them out, even if they wanted to!

The Androsynth were just poking their heads into the Lovecraftian.  They paid the price, one way or another.


You know the more I think about the Arilou, the stranger things get. The Arilou said they knew the first Human, but they also said they made changes to us to protect us. Then they say that there are those out there who wish to harm us, yet they say that they will harm us if they didn't change our *smell* and if we "let ourselves be known" to them. To go on with this they say that the Androsynth let themselves be known and now there are only Orz. So, that, alone, lead me to believe that the Orz are those creatures the Arilou say they are trying to protect us from. Ah well. I've been thinking that it may have just been that the Androsynth showed themselves to the Orz, but I can't get over the fact that the Orz said we were different. So, I have to keep going back to my different DNA theory. I don't know much about making a clone, but I'm pretty sure they use a mix of blood samples and their eyes (microscopes) to make one. Now, if the Arilou did something that was so advanced maybe we couldn't copy it with just a blood sample. Again, this is advanced technology, so who knows what they could've done. Or maybe when we messed with their DNA, to make it so that they couldn't reproduce that part was taken out (again who knowns what the Arilou did with their advanced technology). *Sigh*It seems that every theory I come up with leads to another.  :-/ But then again, that's part of what made SCII great.  Cheesy
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Re: Arilou and the Orz: What's the Deal? *spoilers
« Reply #44 on: December 11, 2002, 10:35:39 am »

So many theories! Thank you everyone for posting! I started this thread with hope that more than three or so people would give input, but now there are so many replies... it's just so interesting to see everyone's take on this topic!

I hope this doesn't shift the overall topic, but I think this ties in to it:

Is it just me, or do the Orz seem rather juvenile and advanced in their conversations at the same time? I mean, they get VERY angry if you simply mention the Androsynth... their lingual "best fits" sometimes seem rather purposefully humorous ("*Jumping Peppers*!! It is *smiley* time!!")... hell, they even try to make jokes with you sometimes!

I sometimes get the impression (regarding the latter example) that the Orz are trying to "fit in" as a "typical" alien race that inhabits what they call *heavy space*. Obviously, they are not "typical" in most senses, as reflected by their complex language and how they only speak in present tense. But the Orz go out of their way to make an alliance with you, supply you with plenty of ship plans, and attempt to make casual jokes ("Yes, we do! Hello! I am only joke. It is funny enough! Don't forget to *enjoy the sauce*!!") with you to lighten the situation of their strangeness.

This is just my take on it... if you have any concurrences or differences, please post away!

And I must ask two more questions, one of which I asked earlier with no answer, but it is okay if you're too focused on the primary issue to answer them. Here they are:

1) If the Orz are projections of a different-dimensioned being/entity/species, why did they/it choose the physical form of fish-like creatures that breathe from a liquid ethanol solution?

2) On a lighter and perhaprs sillier note, what do you think the meaning of *enjoy the sauce* is?

Thank you so much everyone for contributing!
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