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Author Topic: Arilou and the Orz: What's the Deal? *spoilers*  (Read 76316 times)
Mage
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Re: Arilou and the Orz: What's the Deal? *spoilers
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2002, 08:11:23 am »

Um about that "DNA modification"... there's no reason to think that the Androsynth's *smell* was different from regular humans', is there?  Unless they stated something like that in SC II.  Otherwise, there's no reason to think that since they were clones, they somehow lacked the proper DNA that would 'hide' them.  They just messed with what they shouldn't have, got "seen" (don't think they said "smelled", but "seen"), which is what the Arilou warn you about when you ask them about it.  That they would "see" you and etc.
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Re: Arilou and the Orz: What's the Deal? *spoilers
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2002, 08:16:15 am »

Time for Matt's really strange theories!

This probably shouldn't be taken too seriously, and I'm probably wrong about a few points; still, I think it makes some sense. Anyway:

It's pretty obvious that the Arilou and the Orz both live in some sort of other dimensions; they may be linked in some way, but it doesn't matter too much. ("Perhaps you know of the Orz. Like us, they are dimensional travellers..."). Now, the Arilou state that "You are one of our... extended family, just as other sentients in other dimensions have their extended families." This statement means a lot: it tells us that there are more beings in other dimensions (likely far more than just the Arilou and Orz), and that most of them seem to take some interest in a species in our space. Perhaps all of the other-dimensional beings share a common source (for example, an evolutionary ancestor, or a common creator), and that causes all of them to want to look after a particular species in our dimension.

It's also clear that there are certain dangers to these other dimensions. The Arilou state that "If I tell you more, you will look where you could never look before and while you are looking you can and will be seen. You do not want to be seen." My theory is that there is some sort of creature living in those dimensions, that somehow *smells* us, and kills/devours us, or something... the details aren't important. Simply knowing about these other dimensions allows us to see into them, and thus be seen by these beings. Whatever they are, they are a great danger... but they are NOT the Orz. The Arilou, Orz, and any other beings in those dimensions are immune to that being; we are not. The Arilou have been slowly, and cautiously, working to change our *smell* and make us immune as well; they do this because they have an interest in us. The reasons for the caution will become clear soon.

The Taalo lived around the area that the Androsynth, and later the Orz, did. They were supposedly killed by the Ur-Quan when the Dnyarri took over, because they had a tremendous immunity to psychic manipulation. The Orz, however, refer to them as if they still exist, and say that they can travel in these other dimensions as well ("Arilou can *slide*. Also Taalo. Many can *slide*, but Orz are better of course."). How can this be? Well, I think that the Taalo were the species that the Orz were watching out for, until they were supposedly destroyed. In fact, while the Ur-Quan assumed that they killed all the Taalo, the Orz really "pulled them through" into their own dimension. Their rather impenetrable mind meant that the dangerous beings of that dimension were unable to sense them. Basically, the Taalo became inter-dimensional travellers; the efforts of the Orz were a success. The Arilou are slowly working to give us the same privilege.

So, the Taalo are now happy in some other dimension, and millennia pass. The Androsynth get created, and move into the space that the Taalo used to occupy. That space is right by an Orz portal (an "easy place," as the Arilou might say). The Orz decide to "adopt" the Androsynth, as the Taalo no longer need their help. They survive the war; after the war, however, the Orz sense some sort of danger for them... the details are not clear; perhaps they already know that the Kohr-Ah will win, and cleanse, unless something significant happens. In their panic, they try to bring the Androsynth into their dimension to save them... but the Orz, who are so unlike any beings in our space, don't realize the Androsynth's vulnerabilities. The Androsynth learn from the Orz about inter-dimensional travel, and begin experimenting; it is then that they *look* and are seen by the dangerous beings. They are pulled into the other dimension and destroyed by these beings; that explains why there are no bodies, and the searching for information about ghosts and poltergeists (they were not all pulled through at once; it was a several day process at least). The Orz are very upset; it's because they are upset that they refuse to talk about the situation. The reason that the Orz are suddenly showing up in that area of space is basically to invesigate the incident. So, all Androsynth are now dead; the Arilou are taking their time with us to avoid something similar. They want to protect us, but are careful to limit our exposure to other dimensions (Quasispace may be one of the safer dimensions). The reason that they state that the Orz are dangerous is that, in their opinion, they are careless; they did not realize the horrible consequences of their actions. They are not evil, they simply made a terrible mistake.

An interesting consequence of this theory is that the Taalo would exist, and may be able to calm the Ur-Quan... even "adopt" them.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2002, 08:19:48 am by matt » Logged
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Re: Arilou and the Orz: What's the Deal? *spoilers
« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2002, 08:25:26 am »

I don't think it likely that the Taalo still exist.

look at every Orz converstation, EVER.  They never speak in any tense but present tense.  I think that *below* has no time, at least not as we know it.  Thus, the concept of past or future has no meaning, and the Orz speak only in present tense.  But in TrueSpace, time does exist, and so while to the Orz the Taalo are here, to us they WERE here.

One can expand this progression, and speculate that Quasispace has "more" time than TrueSpace.  The
Arilou talk about *time* rather than time, this indicates a different notion of time than we have.
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Re: Arilou and the Orz: What's the Deal? *spoilers
« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2002, 09:16:49 am »

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I found some nice theories and explanations at http://www.classicgaming.com/starcontrol/scsaga/races.htm .  What I've taken from it, is that there are multiple dimensions/planes of reality in the universe, and the Orz are from one w/ the same kind of creatures the Arilou want to keep the humans hidden from (though those creatures populate multiple dimensions/planes).  The Androsynth were basically just clones of humans, so it's not like they were "un-hidden", they just revealed themselves by experimenting with interdimensional fatigue, and that as a result of it, the Orz were able to take advantage of whatever they did, take their place, and stick them all in that dimension instead.  How exactly would Orz eat humans anyways?  They have a glass bowl on their head.   But, the Orz aren't even in the regular universe entirely... they said that the forms that you (the captain) see are like "fingers" or whatever...


That's a good link if you want information about SC in general, but it adds some theories from SCIII and there are some mistakes (it's not the author's fault, he just missed a few lines of dialog from SCII which semi-important issues). Anyway, the Orz say that they *smelled* True-space because of the Androsynth's experiments and by that you could be right. However, I think there's something more then meets the eye. Like the Orz said we're not in for the same fate as the Androsynth because we are "different" (different how? if we are the same as the Androsynth why did the landing party's leader get hurt and not disappear like the Androsynth?) and the Arilou saying they changed our DNA, so certain beings wouldn't be able to *smell* us and in doing so be able to harm us (sound like anyone we know?). Now the Orz said that what the Androsynth did allowed them to *smell* True-Space, but they don't say anything about *smelling* the Androsynth (then again they refuse to tell us what they did to them). What I think they mean is that the Androsynth allowed the Orz to find a way into our space other then the main route (remember the Orz say that the Arilou *jump in front* of them, so if that really means they're stopping them from entering this space, it means that there is a more common way to get here). Once here they *smelled* the Androsynth and wished to harm them because what the Arilou did to humans was added to our clones. After reading all this I see that, although most people believe this, it has little proof to back it up.  :-/
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Re: Arilou and the Orz: What's the Deal? *spoilers
« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2002, 09:46:16 am »

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I don't think it likely that the Taalo still exist.

look at every Orz converstation, EVER.  They never speak in any tense but present tense.  I think that *below* has no time, at least not as we know it.  Thus, the concept of past or future has no meaning, and the Orz speak only in present tense.  But in TrueSpace, time does exist, and so while to the Orz the Taalo are here, to us they WERE here.

One can expand this progression, and speculate that Quasispace has "more" time than TrueSpace.  The
Arilou talk about *time* rather than time, this indicates a different notion of time than we have.


Well see that's where I think you're wrong. The Pkunk say that they had a vision where large rocks will come to life by an explosion. The only explosion we know of is when we use the Ultron to destroy the Sa-Matra. So, by that statement, I think TFB was setting up something for SCIII and if it were not the fact that SCIII was made by someone else, they would've been in it (it would've been a good way to get the Ur-Quan to stop their madness). Also, be aware that the Androsynth were able to open a window, to the Orz, not too far from the Taalo's homeworld. So, if they did *slide* into another dimension perhaps there was a window near by that allowed them to do so and that window was also the reason why they were able to let the Orz in with their modifications of the Precursor device (maybe if they tried it somewhere else it wouldn't have worked). If not so be it, but I it seems to be a pretty big coincidence that the Orz say that the Taalo *slid* into another dimension at the same general area where they entered True-space.

Oh and just for the record, the Taalo had to have some way of traveling quickly through hyperspace, otherwise they wouldn't have been able to help the Milieu very much. So, personally I believe they were able to enter Quasi-Space and they allowed the Ur-Quan to know this. Which would be why their Warp Pod was able to be modified to enter Quasi-Space (it had some technology taught to them by the Taalo, but the Taalo disappeared before they were willing to completely share all the details with them). Now if this is true, then it's very possible that they had the ability to go into another dimension when the Ur-Quan attacked them.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2002, 09:49:02 am by Zeroarmy » Logged
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Re: Arilou and the Orz: What's the Deal? *spoilers
« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2002, 12:07:33 pm »

Quote


That's a good link if you want information about SC in general, but it adds some theories from SCIII and there are some mistakes (it's not the author's fault, he just missed a few lines of dialog from SCII which semi-important issues). Anyway, the Orz say that they *smelled* True-space because of the Androsynth's experiments and by that you could be right. However, I think there's something more then meets the eye. Like the Orz said we're not in for the same fate as the Androsynth because we are "different" (different how? if we are the same as the Androsynth why did the landing party's leader get hurt and not disappear like the Androsynth?) and the Arilou saying they changed our DNA, so certain beings wouldn't be able to *smell* us and in doing so be able to harm us (sound like anyone we know?). Now the Orz said that what the Androsynth did allowed them to *smell* True-Space, but they don't say anything about *smelling* the Androsynth (then again they refuse to tell us what they did to them). What I think they mean is that the Androsynth allowed the Orz to find a way into our space other then the main route (remember the Orz say that the Arilou *jump in front* of them, so if that really means they're stopping them from entering this space, it means that there is a more common way to get here). Once here they *smelled* the Androsynth and wished to harm them because what the Arilou did to humans was added to our clones. After reading all this I see that, although most people believe this, it has little proof to back it up.  :-/


Hm, i forgot that the Orz said we were *different*... I wonder what they would think of the syreen.  Even Talaana said it was "more than coincidence" that humans/syreen were so genetically compatible... I think they were some offshoot of a common ancenstor, but relocated by the Arilou during early , early BC history in order to allow 'pure' humans to develop w/out genetic pollution...sort of explains the arilou's lack of interest in them...heh why am i bothering to speculate so much, they'll never make another star control (or at least one addressing these ideas)
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Re: Arilou and the Orz: What's the Deal? *spoilers
« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2002, 12:32:21 pm »

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Hm, i forgot that the Orz said we were *different*... I wonder what they would think of the syreen.  Even Talaana said it was "more than coincidence" that humans/syreen were so genetically compatible... I think they were some offshoot of a common ancenstor, but relocated by the Arilou during early , early BC history in order to allow 'pure' humans to develop w/out genetic pollution...sort of explains the arilou's lack of interest in them...


I agree that we are related with the Syreen, but somehow it seems like the Arilou didn't have anything to do with it. This maybe an anti-SCIII statement or could even be the fact that the Arilou are my favorite race. But, from SCII it seemed that the Arilou were very kind when they wanted to. In SCII their kindness revolved around Humans because they saw us as their children. So, if the Syreen were really the "children" of the Arilou I'm almost certain they would care for them as much as they do for us. To prove this think about a real parent. They may hide things/lie to you (the Arilou not wanting to tell us about those who seek to harm us) but in the end they're doing it because they care for their children and would never want to see harm come to them (remember when the Arilou said how touched he was when he put his hand on your face and you smiled while sleeping).

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heh why am i bothering to speculate so much, they'll never make another star control (or at least one addressing these ideas)


Oh well, you could be right, speculation is probably pointless. But, this could be our last chance to do it. Once the UQM is out for awhile, less and less people will come here and the forum will be taken down. After which, if we still wish to keep talking about SC (which I won't be doing after there is no more UQM news) we'll have to go to one of the fan boards where you post something and a week later you'll get a reply. Then in a month you'll get another one and a good 3 months later you'll responded to every one of your 5 total replies. Wink
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Re: Arilou and the Orz: What's the Deal? *spoilers
« Reply #22 on: December 10, 2002, 02:01:45 pm »

Quote


2) "We seek to trap *Nggn*, but they dart and leap. YOU cannot catch *Nggn*, do not even try. I don't think you are quite solid enough." What the hell is this supposed to mean?


No one has suggested this yet AFAIK, but I think *Nggn* means the Orz.

Quote
4) What ARE the Orz? The way they talk, it seems like they are actually one single entity that somehow projects multiple selves in our dimension ("I am Orz. I am one with many *fingers* My *fingers* spread into *heavy space*, etc. etc.). And what the hell DID they do with the Androsynth?


Maybe they tried to help androsynth to the same place as Taalo, but Androsynth weren't "solid enough".

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6) What does it mean when the Orz say that the Arilou are always *jumping in front*?


Same as catching the *Nggn*, but from Orz's point of view.

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7) Again, what DID happen to the Androsynth? Why did they look up information about ghosts and poltergiests on their computers when recearching dimensional fatigue?


They looked up the information, when things started going wrong.

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If any of you people have any take on these questions, or have any official information... please let me know! These questions have been bothering me for YEARS!


I'll add here, that I speak as if SC3 never existed:

In my opinion Taalo slided to another dimension.
"<Fwiffo> The Taalo LIVE!"

"<Fwiffo> In regards to the Androsynth: They were snagged by the entity who/which projected its fingers into our dimension (which looked to us as the Orz.)"
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Re: Arilou and the Orz: What's the Deal? *spoilers
« Reply #23 on: December 10, 2002, 02:54:58 pm »

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No one has suggested this yet AFAIK, but I think *Nggn* means the Orz.


Can you explain why you think this? When you ask the Arilou why they are in this area of space (the Circini cluster) they say that they are here to catch *Nggn.* So that means that the *Nggn* live/pass through that area of space and the Orz half the sector from there.


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Maybe they tried to help androsynth to the same place as Taalo, but Androsynth weren't "solid enough".


It's a good theory, but like most of our theories it has little proof to back it up.  :-/ Personally I think the Orz aren't as nice as the Arilou, like some believe, but whatever.

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Same as catching the *Nggn*, but from Orz's point of view.


Again can you explain? While it is possible that *jumping in front* could mean to *jump in front* to catch them. I doubt the Orz would stand by and allow this (they're not really pushovers). Plus the Orz make it seem like this is a long term thing. So, do you think the Arilou were looking for *Nggn* in the Orz's home dimension? Again I find it hard to believe, but it's an original idea.

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They looked up the information, when things started going wrong.


Yeah we got that, but I think the guy wanted to know what went wrong, which later caused them to look up information.

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I'll add here, that I speak as if SC3 never existed:

In my opinion Taalo slided to another dimension.
"<Fwiffo> The Taalo LIVE!"

"<Fwiffo> In regards to the Androsynth: They were snagged by the entity who/which projected its fingers into our dimension (which looked to us as the Orz.)"


Wait, is that what Fwiffo, the Spathi said in SCII or what someone, who calls themself Fwiffo, said in a forum/chat? If that happened in SCII I don't remember reading it...The only two times, that I remember, which talks about the Taalo was when the Pkunk said rocks will come alive by an explosion and the Orz, of course.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2002, 02:56:09 pm by Zeroarmy » Logged
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Re: Arilou and the Orz: What's the Deal? *spoilers
« Reply #24 on: December 10, 2002, 03:36:59 pm »

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Can you explain why you think this? When you ask the Arilou why they are in this area of space (the Circini cluster) they say that they are here to catch *Nggn.* So that means that the *Nggn* live/pass through that area of space and the Orz half the sector from there.


Depends on how you define "this area of space".

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It's a good theory, but like most of our theories it has little proof to back it up. :-/ Personally I think the Orz aren't as nice as the Arilou, like some believe, but whatever.


There isn't any proof. That's why these all are just theories. I always thought that Arilou are actually far more creepy than Orz.

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Again can you explain? While it is possible that *jumping in front* could mean to *jump in front* to catch them. I doubt the Orz would stand by and allow this (they're not really pushovers). Plus the Orz make it seem like this is a long term thing. So, do you think the Arilou were looking for *Nggn* in the Orz's home dimension? Again I find it hard to believe, but it's an original idea


There are many places of *slow time*. Arilou and Orz may have met in another dimension already. "Jumping in front" may suggest that they have interfered with each other's plans. IMO either of them are up to no good.

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someone, who calls themself Fwiffo, said in a forum/chat?


Exactly! It's from an irclog, and fwiffo is Paul + Fred, not a fictional character.
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Re: Arilou and the Orz: What's the Deal? *spoilers
« Reply #25 on: December 10, 2002, 04:00:17 pm »

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Depends on how you define "this area of space".


Well I define it as the Circini cluster, a.k.a the Arilou's sphere of influnce. I know the Arilou may talk in riddles, but I don't think they're stupid enough to confuse area where we are and sector where we are (remember they have spent many thousands of years getting to know us).

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There isn't any proof. That's why these all are just theories. I always thought that Arilou are actually far more creepy than Orz.


Oh hey I didn't mean that your idea had no proof, I meant that all of ours didn't. To be honest, I wanted to reply to your whole thread and I didn't have anything to respond to 2 with except, "I disagree with your theory, because I like mine better." So, I decided to add so random nonsense to fill to void.  Tongue

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There are many places of *slow time*. Arilou and Orz may have met in another dimension already. "Jumping in front" may suggest that they have interfered with each other's plans. IMO either of them are up to no good.


Well I do think that *jumping in front* has to do with interfering with their plans, like you said now. But, the thing I disagreed with you about was that the Orz were the *Nggn* and *jumping in front* meant catching them. Also, I agree with you, to a point, that they're both up to something, but, personally,  I think the Arilou are generally nice, although they can be creepy (remember that thing where he said he touched your face while you were sleeping).

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Exactly! It's from an irclog, and fwiffo is Paul + Fred, not a fictional character.


Oh! I read some chat logs that were on The Pages of Now and Forever, but I don't keep up with this stuff on everyday, so I often forget the less important facts (like what their chat names are). The thing was your post looked like a copy from a chat, but you didn't explain, so I was thinking that it might be what Fwiffo said in the game (silly me Wink ). Anyway, thanks for posting that. I always assumed that the Taalo were alive, like the Orz said, (I believe most of what the game characters tell me as I doubt TFB came up with hours of dialog that was meant to trick us) until Erek posted his theory (it forced me to think a little, which, as we all know is hard work Wink ).
« Last Edit: December 10, 2002, 04:04:18 pm by Zeroarmy » Logged
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Re: Arilou and the Orz: What's the Deal? *spoilers
« Reply #26 on: December 10, 2002, 05:38:36 pm »

Hey Zeroarmy,

that Pkunk vision is about when you finish the Process!

on the other hand, I'm not saying its impossible for them to be alive.  I'm just saying its not as likely as some think.
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Re: Arilou and the Orz: What's the Deal? *spoilers
« Reply #27 on: December 10, 2002, 07:45:31 pm »

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We all know what happened in SCIII and that is the point. The writers from SCIII made up nonsense from their little understanding of SCII. For example:

In SCII the Arilou say that after the Ur-Quan slave-shielded Humans the Arilou realized we were safe, so they left the 3 remaining races to face the Ur-Quan along (the Syreen, Shofixti, and the Yehat). Yet in SCIII they suggest that the Arilou created the Syreen. Now tell me why the Arilou wouldn't protect the Syreen, like they did with us? Why they didn't watch over their starbase? Why they didn't appear, to them, when they spent 75 years endlessly wandering around in space? Sure you could say that they didn't need their DNA to stay alive and so didn't care about them. But, that too is another messed up plot. In SCII the Arilou say they MODIFIED our DNA and changed our *smell* to protect us from those who seek to harm us. Modified meaning changing, not creating. So, if what SCIII said were to be true, the Arilou flat out lied in SCII. Yet, how do you explain changing our *smell.* According to the Orz we are not in for the same fate as the Androsynth because we have are different. And, according to common sense, the only way we could be different is that we were not able to see what the Arilou did to our DNA. So, when we copied our DNA, and made the Androsynth, their DNA was the same as ours was before the Arilou came along.

That is just one of the many ruined plots of SCIII, so when people, in this forum, ask a question about something having to do with cliff-hangers from SCII they tend to want to know what everyone thinks TFB had in mind and not the writers of SCIII.



When did they hint that the Arilou created the Syreen? Maybe they did, but if so, then they must have decided that because 99% of thier race was dead, there was no point in protecting the rest. Also, they DID lie about modifying us to protect us. That was their excuse but the real reason was for the DNA. And the reason they didn't evolve was because of Quasi-Space, and that's what I meant. Quasi-Space apparently is diffirent from True-Space enough so that they couldn't evolve properly.

And to those who think the Taalo were alive, they aren't. They were supposed to watch all the other races up to the point that the galaxy had reached its zenith in sentience, and then summon the Eternal1s to come and harvest them all. The taalo were killed, so the Orz took thier place. The *nggh* are likely the Orz, and they trap them to learn about them to find a way to defeat the Eternal1s but let them go, probably before they call the Eternal1s for help or something. It's not hard to piece together. The Orz join you so quick because they want to stop the Kohr-Ah from killing all the sentients and thus wasting the Eternal1s food.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2002, 07:46:17 pm by Doctuh_Jay » Logged

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Re: Arilou and the Orz: What's the Deal? *spoilers
« Reply #28 on: December 10, 2002, 08:24:57 pm »

Okay Jay,

As for this whole Taalo thing:  that's only true IF you beleive the Daktaklakpak!  And in my book, that's a HUGE if!  If you don't trust the Arilou, then the Daks ought to be the last ones you trust!  The Taalo were just another race, just like the Chenjesu.  Nobody summoned the Eternal1s.  Nobody.  The heralds just showed up one day.

As for *nggnn*, I don't think the *nggnn* are the Orz, because the Arilou SAY Orz when talking about the Orz!  the *nggnn* is just a bit of flavor that TFB put in.  Also, the Arilou would not let the *nggnn* go if they were dangerous, and the Arilou regard the Orz as dangerous.

I also don't buy the Orz/Eternal1 link.  First of all, TFB didn't even come up with the Eternal1s.  Second, if the Orz worked for the Eternal1s they wouldn't eat theri food, ie the Supox and the Androsynth!
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Re: Arilou and the Orz: What's the Deal? *spoilers
« Reply #29 on: December 11, 2002, 12:14:00 am »

How couldn't you believe the Orz/Eternal1 link?! The orz come and attack you with a big fleet days before the heralds arrive talking about... I forget, but that's not the point. Why else would they attack you. And I'm not relying solely on the daks for the scoop on the Taalo. The Orz are clearly the summoning devices and they talk of the taalo often as well.

And I know that the Arilou also call the Orz "Orz". They call them Orz when they want you to know what they are talking about but the *Nggh* is probably some other name for them. Also, tfb wanted to make the Orz creepier by doing things such as freaking out or something when you take them into Quaasi-Space. Maybe because that's where the Arilou take them when they catch them for the moments to study them or something. Finally, the Arilou say that you aren't solid enough to touch the *Nggh* and in SCIII the Orz say something about being more *solid* than you. It all fits.
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Some of the earliest memories of my life involve me, my dad, and/or my brother playing Star Control 1 on the ol' Amiga! A slightly more recent memory is of Star Control 2 back in '92. Good times!!
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