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Topic: Arilou and the Orz: What's the Deal? *spoilers* (Read 92171 times)
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Zeroarmy
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Ah another day went by and so did the discussion (PsiPhi knows what I mean  ). Anyway, I have a few extra points to add...
1. For those of you who think the Orz and *Nggn* are one in the same can you explain to me why the Arilou would say that they were trying to catch the *Nggn* and then tell us not to trust the Orz? Is it just me or does it seem a little silly for them to call the Orz two different things?
2. Does anyone know what exactly an *easy place* is? I went to the Arilou, to check to see what they said about the *Nggn,* again, and after asking why they are in this area of space, they said that this is an *easy place.* Then if you ask why they are in this *easy place* they say it's to catch *Nggn.* So, I figured instead of arguing about the *Nggn* and Orz thing we could try and figure out what it is because if it's just referring to the Arilou's sphere of influence then they can't be the Orz.
3. And for three we move on to the Taalo. The conversation was shut down by what Paul and Fred said so I thought it best to explain why I think they're alive (it seemed people were still finding it hard believe it).
Ok well let's pretend Fred and Paul didn't say the Taalo were alive. Now, before this statement, it was believed, by most, that the Taalo weren't alive even though the Orz brought them up in conversation. This was of course because the Orz talk in present tense. But, the thing is that even if the Orz can't understand time, and all this *sliding* and playing *time tricks* on them may have happened 22 thousand years ago, doesn't it stand to reason that they're still alive now? After all, everyone was saying that they agreed with what the Orz said, but they didn't think they could understand time. So, anyway, by what the Orz said, the Taalo escaped the Ur-Quan attack and *slide* into another dimension. Then, (the following is my view on what happened) being that the Taalo were more advanced then the Chenjesu and were able to annoy the Orz by playing *tricks* on them (they must've been much stronger then the Orz) they should've easily been able to survive 20 thousand more years.
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mstr
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1. For those of you who think the Orz and *Nggn* are one in the same can you explain to me why the Arilou would say that they were trying to catch the *Nggn* and then tell us not to trust the Orz? Is it just me or does it seem a little silly for them to call the Orz two different things?
Arilou talking about *Nggn* are flying around in hyperspace. They don't reveal you much, because it's arilou policy to protect humans from too much information. After you reach their homeworld, they decide to tell you more.
Ok well let's pretend Fred and Paul didn't say the Taalo were alive. Now, before this statement, it was believed, by most, that the Taalo weren't alive even though the Orz brought them up in conversation. This was of course because the Orz talk in present tense. But, the thing is that even if the Orz can't understand time, and all this *sliding* and playing *time tricks* on them may have happened 22 thousand years ago, doesn't it stand to reason that they're still alive now?
Orz weren't in *heavy space* 22k years ago, so they must have slid to taalo's new dimension, and met them there.
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PsiPhi
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I would first like to say to Krulle that I completely agree with your translation of *juice squeezing* over my 8 year old one. Reading through the Orz text, I can't think how it is that I thought it meant "to make peace", unless I meant something like "to pacify" ... could it not mean "to pacify by force"?
Also, my translation of *silly cows* although catching the idea that it was not something positive, was too harsh. Your "annoying beings" seems to fit a lot better.
And your *enjoy the sauce* makes sense, but again, I still see it as their form of "have a nice day", "safe journey", "godspeed", "good luck", "Live long and prosper". Your interpretation is too specific. They only say that phrase once. They use *sauce* three times. The other two are as *special sauce*. Although it is in an area about fighting and *dissolving* (getting destroyed, dying), it could just have something to do with you becoming or being absorbed by the Orz, which is something good to them.
Looking through this text, it is obvious that *juice* is connected to the Orz being upset. So, my translation above is not right.
EDIT: I just thought of something. What if *squeezing the juice* meant something like, using up energy? I know this will sound very SCIII, but what if the Orz absorb *campers* when they *become* at a *party* and this gives the Orz *juice* (energy). When you force them to *squeeze the juice*, you are making them use up precious energy. Since the Androsynth *silly cows* resisted, they frustrated the Orz because it made it that much harder to absorb them, the effort wasn't worth it. Cows are a source of energy both through milk and meat and they aren't known for intelligence.
I think part of the reason the Orz like *heavy space*, which yes, could mean places with gravity, is because it is very good for their Space Marines. For some reason, a planet allows them to speed up as if they can harness gravity into some way we don't understand. Perhaps *pretty space* lacks gravity. If pretty space IS quasi-space (or one is a subset of the other), then that may make sense since Quasi-Space didn't have any planets or stars in it. And don't tell me, "But the Arilou's world was there", because the Arilou themselves say,
This is our homeworld, Falayalaralfali, nestled safe in this TrueSpace eddy.
Therefore, the Space Marines would not have this advantage in Quasi-Space, so *heavy space* is good for them.
But I disagree with *party* meaning a large scale war. Arrow is right. Although the exact reasons can never be known, word concepts like *home*, *other home*, *camper*, *party* *alliance* (as well as some others) all seem to tie into, what I perceive as, a ominous (to human's normal existence) and unifying idea that the Orz want to show us other dimensions, or alter us in some way. I'm not saying genetically, but perhaps physically and mentally. When I think of them saying *alliance*, they do not mean as in, mutual support of arms for defense. I think they are referring to bringing us to another dimension, somewhere we do not belong, but are apparently (to the Orz) willing to go thereby being *happy campers* because we would no longer be at our *home* ... *home* being our dimension, or planet, or maybe even our sense of reality. *Camper* meaning, away from *home*.
Although a *home* could be the region of TrueSpace they occupying or the planet itself, that is to them currently, the Taalo *Playground*.
I think the main things to keep in mind are these:
- We all know that the Orz sense of reality is completely different from ours.
- all words that appear in ** can mean more than just one thing. For any one familiar with Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land, I like to think of these "words" as if they are like the word "grok". They mean many things at many times often depending on the situation. It will be difficult for you to understand because you lack the experiece/knowledge/sense due to your physical limitations and/or alternate upbringing.
- The Orz have a completely different agenda from ours. We are looking for allies in a war. The Orz really have no care or concept of why this is important to us. Rather, it seems to me that it is more important that they somehow *pull* or bring *happy*(willing) *campers* (explorers, volunteers) to go through some kind of change.
Reading others thoughts on this, I am now starting to see what they mean by the Orz being confused and upset about the whole matter of the Androsynth. The Androsynth opened a *slippery* place (a portal) and it appears the Orz took this to mean that the Androsynth were ready and willing to go through this *party*, this process, this change. But they weren't. They were just doing research, something the Orz may not understand. Something in the Party went horribly wrong. Perhaps to the Orz, the Androsynth were supposed to be *happy campers* or else, why would they do this thing of opening a *slippery place*? Instead they turned out to be *silly cows*. They frustrated the Orz efforts to ?help? the Androsynth enter this new existence of being. This must have greatly confused the Orz.
I think that when they speak of the biggest *party* this is the Orz idea for this process of transformation (*become*), not just to their dimension, but into a new state of being. What this new state is ... who knows. I always thought that it could mean absorption ... not physically eaten, but an absorption of being, perhaps even becoming part of the Orz, willingly.
The Orz at one time also refer to *cousins*, *sisters* and *relatives*. It seems to us (the Captain) like they want to just form a militray alliance, but what they really mean is we are agreeing to go through the process (party) of becoming something new, something perhaps like the Orz or maybe even part of the Orz. We are volunteering our *sauce* to be absorbed.
Aside from this, I don't read into the "Nggn" thing any further than that it is some "game" the Arilou like to do to keep themselves occupied that we cannot understand. (Not solid enough) I really don't see a connection either. Although, I'll admit, the Orz, "Nnnnggggaaahhh" looks similar, to me, it's nothing more than a GRUNT of impatience and/or anger AND a coincidence. I agree with ZeroArmy. I see no evidence.
As for the *jumping in front*, the Orz say that they never *smelled* our *level* until the Androsynth made the *slippery* place, so for that to SPECIFICALLY mean that they were upset that the Arilou were keeping them out of this dimension seems flawed. However, I do agree that the Arilou and Orz have met in on the *outside* before and that this simply means that the Arilou have been getting in the way of the Orz doing whatever it is that they do, and this is very annoying. Though the Orz are from this other dimension, I don't believe they have IDF (portal spawning) ability like the Arilou. This is why they refer to the Arilou as *quick babies* because they can get from one place to another quickly. They were able to keep the portal the Androsynth made open though. Perhaps once the Androsynth opened it, they didn't know how to close it, or they made an opening in a way that it could no longer be closed OR, since there is a lot of mention of the Taalo and this was their home space, this area of space just happens to be easily connected to the *outside*.
The Taalo did escape annihilation by the Dynarri ... although whether they are still the same beings once they crossed the threshold, that is not known.
The reason I say this is because the Orz themselves say this:
Yes. Yes. You say words, then I say. It is fun *in between*. More fun than *dancing*. Many *gravity centers* in *heavy space* make good *party places*. This is why we like the *New Town*. So many *Campers* and then what? Even the *Playgrounds*! Such a surprise! At this *Playground*, Taalo are making *Time jokes*. It is too funny for the Orz. Taalo are in *heavy space* and next what? They spread to *Pretty Space* because Dnyarri are chasing them. Now Dnyarri are sleeping, so Orz can *chase* them. Then we can have a *party*. They are even better *campers* than you. Do not feeling bad. You are good enough *campers*, but not yet.
This could mean that the Taalo made it into *pretty space*, where the Orz exist, but without going through this *party* process, that the Orz seem so eager for you to experience.
So, I agree with ZeroArmy (yet again - scary isn't it) that the Taalo survived by making it into another dimension and that some how they have managed to evade the Orz with their *time jokes*, although the Orz still want them.
Never forget, the Orz are strange.
Orz cannot be *strange*. Orz is Orz. Strange is other thing.
You are the *silliest cow* even more so.
At least you can *dance* with Orz.
After the *dancing* Orz think you will make good *special sauce*.
Maybe even for other Orz *party*, so do not be sad.
-PsiPhi
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« Last Edit: December 12, 2002, 01:30:35 pm by PsiPhi »
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Zeroarmy
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Arilou talking about *Nggn* are flying around in hyperspace. They don't reveal you much, because it's arilou policy to protect humans from too much information. After you reach their homeworld, they decide to tell you more.
Well that could be so, but it seems to be that the hyperspace Arilou aren't trying to hold anymore information then those at their homeworld (according to the base commander they didn't give us any information before because we were too busy fighting to ask). And even if they were trying to why wouldn't they simply tell us about the Orz so we could avoid them? I mean it's one thing to not tell us about creatures from another dimension, that way we won't even try to find them, but it's another thing when someone, who the Arilou think might harm us, enter our space.
EDIT: Ok I opened up a old saved game (one before I ever talked to the Arilou) and flew up to their space. After asking "I am confused about our relationship. Please elaborate" several times, (this is to the hyperspace Arilou) they said this...
"You know, we never revealed where in the galaxy one could find our homeworld. There was a good reason. We are not from your space, or your... *time*. Some of your more broad thinkers refer to such realms as other dimensions. Though trivialized, this is a suitable metaphor for your intellect.
Perhaps you know of the Orz. Like us, they are dimensional travellers but that is where our similarity ends. Do not trust the Orz, my Human Captain. They are dangerous. But as to your question... our relationship. To call our interaction with your kind an experiment would be much too simple and impersonal. Let us just say that we have a vested interest in your... development. You are one of our... extended family, just as other sentients in other dimensions have their extended families. We are proud of you as you would be of your children, and some day well, I have said too much already."
Notice the part that I bolded. The Arilou have no problem calling the Orz by their name there, (which means your idea as to why is voided) so why would they call them the *Nnngn* later?
Orz weren't in *heavy space* 22k years ago, so they must have slid to taalo's new dimension, and met them there.
[/quote]
Did you read what I said? I was saying that the Taalo entered the Orz's dimension themselves (in a post before I explained why I thought the Taalo could enter quasi-space when they met the Milieu). There was no way the Orz could've dragged the Taalo into their dimension 22 thousand years ago. For one they'd have to be friends with the Taalo to save them from the Ur-Quan (the Orz only make alliances when it suits them) and they'd have to KNOW about this space (remember they didn't even know it exsisted until the Androsynth's experements).
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« Last Edit: December 12, 2002, 02:02:44 pm by Zeroarmy »
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PsiPhi
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Ah another day went by and so did the discussion (PsiPhi knows what I mean ).
Yes, Yes I do.
2. Does anyone know what exactly an *easy place* is? I went to the Arilou, to check to see what they said about the *Nggn,* again, and after asking why they are in this area of space, they said that this is an *easy place.* Then if you ask why they are in this *easy place* they say it's to catch *Nggn.* So, I figured instead of arguing about the *Nggn* and Orz thing we could try and figure out what it is because if it's just referring to the Arilou's sphere of influence then they can't be the Orz.
I always took "easy place" to mean a natural occurence of interdimensional fatigue, that being the Quasi-space portal that appears for 3 days starting on the 17th of each month.
Frankly, I think the Nggn are like that little pixie the Pkunk says sits on your shoulder and makes funny faces at him ... it's just something quirky added to the game to enhance the fact that these are aliens to which you are speaking.
Nggn are not Orz. The Arilou's attitude towards Nggn is quite jovial and relaxed. Hell, he releases them after he catches them, like it is some kind of game. Maybe its the Arilou version of Frungy. I don't know. I'm not going to kill myself trying to read into something that was mentioned once as an obvious joke. By contrast, the Arilou attitude towards Orz is quite cautious and unfriendly.
If you make that connection, then you may as well start making outlandish connections like the Ultron is just a hyperwave receiver/converter and someone like the Umgah are behind some other farcical prank to mislead the Utwig culture. Or that the Spathi Evil Ones are really just the last of the ZoqFotPik's Zebranky, that were transported by the Umgah to Spathiwa for a few laughs. Actually, I'd believe THAT before I'd ever believe that the Orz are the Nggn, simply because they grunt "Nnnngggaaahhhh" whenever they are mad.
But if you choose to believe that, well, I've got a real good deal for you on this powerful artifact called the Trident of Wimbli.
-PsiPhi
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Zeroarmy
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I always took "easy place" to mean a natural occurence of interdimensional fatigue, that being the Quasi-space portal that appears for 3 days starting on the 17th of each month.
See that's what I was thinking, but the Arilou said that there is only one natural occuring portal to Quasi-space, while they said that there were 10 total "easy places."
Frankly, I think the Nggn are like that little pixie the Pkunk says sits on your shoulder and makes funny faces at him ... it's just something quirky added to the game to enhance the fact that these are aliens to which you are speaking.
lol. Call me crazy, but I like the idea of the *Nnngn* being pixies. 
Nggn are not Orz. The Arilou's attitude towards Nggn is quite jovial and relaxed. Hell, he releases them after he catches them, like it is some kind of game. Maybe its the Arilou version of Frungy. I don't know. I'm not going to kill myself trying to read into something that was mentioned once as an obvious joke. By contrast, the Arilou attitude towards Orz is quite cautious and unfriendly.
It's funny you say that because, while editing my post above yours, I was thinking that it maybe the Arilou's version of Frungy. And probably wasn't thought out in detail, like Frungy probably wasn't.
If you make that connection, then you may as well start making outlandish connections like the Ultron is just a hyperwave receiver/converter and someone like the Umgah are behind some other farcical prank to mislead the Utwig culture. Or that the Spathi Evil Ones are really just the last of the ZoqFotPik's Zebranky, that were transported by the Umgah to Spathiwa for a few laughs. Actually, I'd believe THAT before I'd ever believe that the Orz are the Nggn, simply because they grunt "Nnnngggaaahhhh" whenever they are mad.But if you choose to believe that, well, I've got a real good deal for you on this powerful artifact called the Trident of Wimbli.
-PsiPhi
Aww, how cute, you're turning into a ranting maniac, just like me.
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« Last Edit: December 12, 2002, 02:15:40 pm by Zeroarmy »
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PsiPhi
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See that's what I was thinking, but the Arilou said that there is only one natural occuring portal to Quasi-space, while they said that there were 10 total "easy places."
Yeah, you are right and there are 15 entrances from Quasi to Hyper. Even though it does say only natural portal, I wonder if they ommited "in this quadrant". Pure speculation. Other than that, no idea what an easy place is then.
lol. Call me crazy, but I like the idea of the *Nnngn* being pixies.
Yeah, did you ever notice that there are a lot of races that are either psychic (Pkunk, Syreen, Utwig, Arilou) and a lot of them seem to joke about being able to see things you cannot, like the Melnorme trader always bringing up the Keel-Verezy? I think this all just fits into the category of idle chit-chat tidbits thrown into the story that have absolutely NOTHING to do with the plot of the game. But that's the brilliance of this game, because in that way it mimics real-life in a sense. A lot of the time, you need to cut through a lot of the crap to find the gem of info that pertains to you. My friend and I drove each other nuts looking for the Keel-Verezy. We thought that's where we'd get the Cloaking Devce we had heard about. Turns out, red herring. It drove us nuts, but we loved it.
It's funny you say that because, while editing my post above yours, I was thinking that it maybe the Arilou's version of Frungy. And probably wasn't thought out in detail, like Frungy probably wasn't.
Truly strange. And what does the Ultron tell you that I'm thinking now?
Aww, how cute, you're turning into a ranting maniac, just like me.
Oh, I was one WAY before this. Read my other posts on various topics. I mean how far of a stretch is it from being so insanely obsessive and actually taking the time to write an Orz dictionary, create my own map of the quadrant on graph paper (how do you think I found the last five or six rainbow worlds the first time so quick? I picked up a ruler and said ... Oh, don't even TELL ME!), catalog the mineral content, bios, planetary dangers, and gravity of every planet of every star I visited in a notebook (which I seem to have misplaced) AND becoming a ranting maniac on the forums?
I tell ya, Juffo-Wup burns strong in me!
-PsiPhi
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peterb
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10 total *easy places* --> 10 rainbow worlds.
Ok, I don't believe it either, but I figured I'd mention it.
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Aquisitor
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I think the Arilou are acting with a lot less altruism than they would like you to believe; mainly because the things they say are exactly what I would say to a talking resource to make it feel better and not try to run away before I expended it, e.g. an Arilou tells you "Rest assured, the well-being of humanity is at the forefront of every Arilou's mind." (Or something like that anyway, it has been a while).
Sounds comforting doesn't it? But if you replace "humanity" with "cattle" and "Arilou" with "farmer" well... the meaning is unchanged, the sentiment is unchanged, but the implacations are whole bunches different, and the Arilou hasn't actualy lied.
There are lots of other examples, but I would have to rebuild my legacy box to access my old savegames.
Also they are so very stingy with their information for an alleged ally with only our best interest in mind (of course they are you idiot, its a game... what the hell kind of game comes with an in-game walk-through? Aside from the Diablo®s I mean.) *Aquisitor cuffs his imaginary 'friend'* Shut up you. Where was I... ah, yes, stingyness.
They say "we cannot help you with ships and beams, blood and bones, but knowledge trancends boundries and this we can give you for example, for the origins of the red probes, seek those on a planet with no surface" that is the riddle they give you instead of "Talk to the Slylandro on the Gas Giant at XX.x, YY.y" Honestly.
As to the behavior of the Orz, perhaps it goes something like this
1 Androsynth play with IDF tech
2 Orz and the poltergiest slashers notice the Androsynth
3 Slashers and Orz manifest; pehaps simultaneously, most likely not.
4 Androsynth concerned
5 Someone nukes the planet to prevent the spread of the slashers; maybe Orz, maybe Androsynth.
6 Orz remain to contain/eliminate/exorcise? the slashers and ensure no more sentients fall prey to them.
So when you talk to the Orz about the Androsynth, and make things *frumple* they kill you because they don't want the slashers turning up, not because it was the Orz that ate the Androsynth. Also notice the Arilou don't actualy say it was the Orz that did it. they say "The Orz are dangerous" (probably true, but so are all races) and they say "There are no more Androsynth, only Orz" and let you make the assumption that one was responsible for the other.
Consider: "The children were playing with matches and while they were doing so they could and did catch fire; now there no children, only firefighters." Now it would be silly to assume that the only people left after the disaster caused teh disaster in this scenario, so why does "The Androsynth were experementing with IDF. While they were doing so they could be and were seen. Now there are no Androsynth, only Orz" automaticly mean "the Orz ate the Androsynth"? (perhaps not literaly, but you know what I mean)
That being said, I still wouldnt trust the Orz either. Not until I knew a lot more about them anyway. For example: why does a creature that is only a *finger* need a medium to breathe? Do you even breathe the ethanol? or is it to stop you *disapating* or something? or is the ethanol more like a movie screen that the *fingers* are projected on? And what exactly is a *finger* anyway? Linguists! get that translation module functioning at least 98% ASAP!
The Orz and the Arilou seem to be subtly competing over us, but I get the feeling it is closer to a claim-stake rather than a custody battle.
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wake
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wake - The translator was inable to produce a word that would correspond with what the Orz were (was) saying. It DID do a translation as well as it could, thus it gave some loosely related words. *Below* means exactly that, but in a fourth dimension. Same ideas with *above* and *middle.*
But it's absurd to believe that even races in TrueSpace have words exactly corresponding to those in the English language. For instance, the Utwig strike me as the kind of race that would have about 200 different words for depression. But the translator still picks up on that. Context is very important for translation, and I think the translator know that.
A good example of words that it can't handle would by the Mycon's *chupwup* or whatever (it's been ages since I played with the text). Naturally, that's some sort of weird plant religious thing, but even we try and translate it to something like "the marvelousness of growing and eating sunlight and reproducing en masse via spores and stuff", we still don't approach an exact translation, because our language doesn't carry the appropriate concepts.
It seems reasonable to say that the case is the same with the Orz. It's fine to translate *below* as some other dimension, because that's only a vague approximation of a translation. But translating their words to things like "fighting", and "good", and "happy", and "stupid", well, I reiterate my hypothesis that if the translator could handle these in other races, they could handle them with the Orz. Of course, a vague approximation may be "fighting" or what not, but if it's only an approximation, then it becomes a LOT harder to figure out what the Orz are actually saying, because you can end up with situations like translating "engaging in battle to protect you" to "engaging in battle".
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