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Topic: Arilou and the Orz: What's the Deal? *spoilers* (Read 101390 times)
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Death 999
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We did. You did. Yes we can. No.
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I would like to point out that in Flatland, Square remains unable to move in three dimensions without the help of Sphere (who comes only once a thousand years). So he ends up stuck in prison for the rest of his life.
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wminsing
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>>Here's the question that bothers me--look at the Arilou ships. They appear to have the ability to bounce around Truespace at will, they have no inertia, etc...Now look at the Orz ships. Orz ships are very advanced machines of war, but they're not especially "alien" in any way. There's no bizarre, otherworldly aspect to their technology that we cannot understand. The manual even describes them as physiologically not unusual, saying "they appear to be straightforward gill-breathers."<<
>>It seems odd to me that the form the Orz take when pushing through from another dimension just happens to be so...physically comprehensible. Especially if their thought processes are as alien as they seem to be.<<
This is why I always figured the Orz had immigrated to Truepsace for good, and are not just "investigating" it, for lack of a better term. I mean, why would wierd, extra-dimensional creatures exploring truespace need ships, or anything like that? Or if they did need ships to get around, why build so many? I mean, the Orz seem to have a fair amount of ships, esp. in their "core systems"? Furthermore, why would they patrol and defend any systems at all, unless there were trying to claim them? That's what leads me to believe, that regardless of where they actually came from, they are planning to stay in Truespace for good (or at least the forseeable future). They trying to adapt to life in this dimension are thouroghly as possiable, and that may be the driving force behind there "Alliance Party" with you. Of course, if they didn't have bodies as we know them from whereever they came from, they might have needed biological material to fashion them. Provides a convient (if not entirely accurate) explantion for where the Androsynth went....
-Will
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unigolyn
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How's that? They're HERE, and HERE you can't break the laws of physics, hence you're subject to them.
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PsiPhi
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After a month away I'm back and what better place to post than here. I can't believe some one resurrected this discussion. Once I saw it fall to page three, I thought it surely dead. It's nice to see others noticed and still have questions, as we all do.
Kizor - thanks for inferring that I'm mad. It really brought a smile to my face to see that people have really taken the time to read through ALL these pages of posts, as a lot of us did, even the really long ones, like mine tend to be.
Matticus - thanks for inferring that I'm insane. I guess when you enjoy something so fully, it crosses over to obsession and yeah, you look crazy to other people. The insane fanatic ... yeah, that's me. Seeing that you admit yourself one, why hold back? Submit your ideas, no matter how long or how crazy they sound. That's the point of the forum ... sharing ideas. If you make clear, valid points and back it up, I'll read it and I'm sure others will too.
I put out my old ORZ dictionary on here and it got criticized and "corrected" and rightfully so. People had insights I failed to realize. Others saw obvious flaws I just missed. But I'm willing to admit when I'm wrong (yes, Kizor, it's possible), and I'd love to see everything presented in a new light.
For instance, Tom Schumm's long, yet informative explanation of the concepts in the book Flatland possibly relating to how the Orz view our space and we view them is brilliant. I've never read the book myself, but I've had many math teachers refer to it, especially my multivariable calc. professor, that I was already familiar with the ideas in it. It fits perfectly with the idea of how one entity from another dimensional could be seen as multiple instances at the same time.
This is why I love this topic and I'm so excited to see it resurface.
I was recently going through an old folder I had stashed away that contained various game maps and hints from years ago and I'm so excited because I found my old SC2 notes on mineral content of various star systems. But the best part was finding the map I had started making of Hyperspace. It's six pieces of graph paper carefully taped together. The entire grid is done and all the quasi space openings are marked in red, but it's mostly unfinished. I really only added the stars in the Pkunk to Yehat region of space and I drew some of the circles of influence. It's not very useful, but like the dictionary, it's a nice memory to have of one of my favorite games.
Mad? Insane? Nah. I'm just a die-hard fan.
-PsiPhi
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unigolyn
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Didn't you read the post about flatland? A. Square was able to move in other physical dimensions as soon as he became aware of their existance. It doesn't matter if WE can only comprehend the 3 spacial dimensions, the Orz and Arilou, it's implied, are able to exist in more.
This explains the Arilou teleporting ability very well, I think.
I meant that they need to exist here as corporeal 3D beings in order to interact with this world fully, which is why they take the form of gill-breathing fishy things. This particular tangent started when someone wondered why the Orz were so mundane, if they're projections of an extradimensional entity. They need to be solid objects while here, because it's not as simple as the flatland example - whoever is behind the *fingers* can't simply break every law of physics in our dimension, because the access to truespace is limited to certain DF points. Unlike flatland, truespace is NOT visible from *pretty space*. My theory is that the Orz creature's conciousness, when tied to the physical shells of the Orz fishies, can 'communicate' interdimensionally, keep control of the bodies just like our individual conciousnesses control our bodies. But without a corporeal body, Orz is blind, it can't see or touch this world. Via DF it can however *smell* the conciousness of beings on this side, and that's what happened with the Androsynth - the Orz creature *smelled* them, and within DF points could convert their organic matter into the fish-creatures, in order to interact with our universe.
All this requires a certain amount of mysticism in the form of accepting (for the purposes of the game universe) mind-body dualism. I don't see this as a problem, though, since the Pkunk are far more mystic than that.
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Matticus
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Before posting my thoughts on the Orz, I'd like to state a few things up front for the sake of clarity. I have always tried to refer to the Orz in the singular. This has been very difficult to do because the Orz appear to be separate beings. But as we all know, Fred and Paul have stated that this is not so:
<Fwiffo> In regards to the Androsynth: They were snagged by the entity who/which projected its fingers into our dimension (which looked to us as the Orz.)
So the Orz is from another dimension and it is a singular entity. Done and done.
And now I may begin. What follows is but a part of my take on the Orz.
I've been thinking a lot about the unorthodox nature of the Orz language that causes the translator such problems. I was reading a transcript of the Orz conversations and something about them suddenly hit me. They seem to have a tendency to communicate in a stream-of-consciousness fashion. There will be almost random insertions of related thoughts that go unanswered because the Orz just keeps talking. An example:
Oh, the *alliance party* *campers* are in the *now space*. It is *happy spices*. Why are you there? Of course because also the Orz are in the *now space*. So I am waiting for you to *spit*. It is a pleasure
See how it asks a question and then answers it right after? Why would it say that out loud and then not wait for a response? It just seems to be something that popped into the Orz's mind and then it immediately answers its own question. It's as though it's just speaking its thoughts directly. Another example:
Androsynth are not here. Orz are here. You are not the same too much like Androsynth. You are *happy campers*. Do you want to see our surprising toys*? No!! Do Not!! Androsynth are so silly. We do not *tell stories* a lot about them. No more Androsynth stories.
What sticks out to me here is the "surprising toys" comment. Why is it there? Is it something the Orz said to the Androsynth, or vice versa? Or perhaps it's a hypothetical question to the Captain that it (for some reason) answers? Or did the Androsynth incident simply remind it of a related thought or memory that it threw in there for no particular reason? Any one of those answers supports my assertion. Another quote:
We are not trusting. We like to be *together*. Do you want to be *together* with us?
Always the other *sad animals* go away, but first we have lots of fun. Too many fun is not enough!! Do you agree? I think you *smell* like you do. This is the story about trusting. It is sad and makes many Orz *dissolve* or burst into several. Why is it that you are trusting? What a funny question. I am tired.
Again, there is a pattern of asking a question and not even waiting for (or even expecting) a response. It just keeps going, almost on a kind of ramble ("I am tired.").
Ok, I believe I've supported that point well enough for some serious discussion. There are more examples, but I'll spare everyone. =)
The question that came to my mind in response to this was "Why does the Orz communicate like that?" And here is what I came up with:
The Orz communications are its internal thought process. The reason why their "language" is so unorthodox is that it's not really a language in that it isn't designed to be communicated to other beings. The Orz just barrages the translator with information without regards to its (The Orz's) own shifting contexts, knowledge, and assumptions. The computer is used to interpreting language, which has a specific structure designed to avoid such ambiguities in order to communicate in as clear a way as possible. This structure seems to be absent (for the most part) in the Orz communications, so the computer has to do its best to make sense of things.
This would also explain why all of the verbs in Orz communications are in the present tense. It is shown that the Orz have a concept of time. They say things like "Six or nine *pieces* ago..." and such. And yet all of the verbs are in the present tense. Why? Although the Orz can obviously remember and think about things that have happened in the past, it does this thinking and remembering in the present so that's how it is communicated. It's as though the Orz is replaying the memories in its mind and so communicating as though these things are happening in the present.
Well this would naturally bring about questions relating to how the Orz communicate with beings in its native dimension. My answer to such questions is that either those other beings share similar knowledge and assumptions and can just intuitively pick up the contexts of the information communicated or that there simply are no other beings in the Orz's native dimension it can communicate with. Either such beings do not have the capacity to communicate with the Orz or simply do not exist.
I have a tendency to lean more towards the latter. I believe the Orz is the only being to exist in its dimension. I believe this because the Orz doesn't seem to pick up on the concept that other beings may have different views and opinions of things than it does. It assumes that you will want a *party* and that you want to be *connected* in order for them to share other *levels* with you because that's how it views things. Such a being my have some trouble picking up on the nuance that there are other ways of thinking, which may be why the Orz react with such violent frustration whenever something happens contrary to what they think should happen. After all, what other point of view is there? There is also a statement that would tend to support that the Orz are used to existing alone:
Orz cannot be strange. Orz is Orz. Strange is other thing.
This shows a tendency to view reality as being only one of two things: Orz and everything else. And as everything else, by definition, isn't Orz, everything else is strange. This is further supported by the fact that the Orz doesn't seem to differentiate between other beings beyond its ability to tell individuals or certain groups from one another. For example, consider the Orz's take on the Androsynth and humans from one of my previous quotes:
You are not the same too much like Androsynth. You are *happy campers*.
Uh... humans aren't very similar to the Androsynth? Genetically, they are nigh identical but the Orz either doesn't recognize that or doesn't view it as being important. The Orz does differentiate between humans and Androsynth, but this differentiation is based on the attitude of the Captain towards the Orz as compared to the attitude of the Androsynth in general towards it. It seems to ignore or to be unaware of the physical similarities between Androsynth and humans.
Alright, to sum up: the Orz language causes so many problems because it is not a "language" so much as the direct inner ramblings of the Orz entity. This method of communication is the result of the Orz being the only entity able to communicate in its native dimension, or perhaps of the Orz being the only being in its native dimension. The latter would tend to be supported by the Orz's inability to understand why other things have a different point of view, and also its tendency to view all things in existence as ultimately being either Orz or not Orz. An example of the Orz's inexperience in classification is demonstrated by the Androsynth/human example.
So that's one part of my take on the Orz. Comments are welcome. =)
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« Last Edit: February 03, 2003, 12:25:52 pm by Matticus »
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philosophy is the talk on a cereal box
religion is a smile on a dog
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Soviet_Inclination
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Very interesting theories regarding the Orz! I particularly like the idea of their language being strings of thought picked up by your translatin computer.
I was wondering... this might be a bit strange for this discussion, but how do you people think that the Androsynth vanished? Like, I know the theories of why they vanished, but I want to hear peoples' takes on how it happened. In what manner did the Androsynth die, or get assimilated, or vanish? The lack of bodies on their homeworld seems to be evidence pointing to a method other than killing.
What do you guys think?
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unigolyn
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As I said before, I think the Orz creature slid to truespace on their planet, and after a bit of haunting/mindreading decided that it wanted to come here. Then it started to disassemble the Androsynth and creating the Orz fishies, and as this spread more and more, the Androsynth got desperate and did what humans would do in their place - nuked their world from orbit in hopes of killing off the Orz. Obviously, they didn't succeed.
Another variation is that the fishies didn't appear right away, that the Androsynth were nuking the poltergeist-like Orz who kept snatching their people away into *below*, and doing the conversion from androsynth to fish-creature there.
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Cyamarin
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He does say "nuclear bazookas" but I don't think that necessarily means it was a nuclear attack. I think he was just exaggerating to describe the amount of destruction. He was clearly a little rattled by the whole experience.
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