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Topic: TW-ligt plot (Read 40837 times)
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Strange_Will
Frungy champion
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Posts: 51
I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
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Okay I'm REALLY confused about this game thing...
not so much confused as pissed....
So I start out with a blade, okay this is fine, I blow up a few guys, this is good, now I'm battling a guy and a dumbass shofixti shows up and detenoates right into me ending the game...
Now this wouldn't be so bad if I DIDN'T HAVE TO START ALL OVER I played for like 15 minutes, and I can't get further before a shofixti pops out of nowhere flying in and blowing me up... =\ 
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Art
Guest
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You could have it so there were no knock out ships and there is no killing of innocent lives.
The Arilou give you a device that allows you to teleport crew off of any ship you destroy as it is in the process of exploding. They can then be set free on a life pod. This also allows you to take enemies hostage, which could create some interesting plot situations, if so you pleased. Most importantly, you fight alliance ships in melee with whichever ship you have in your fleet, you don't have to use a stun ship with its particular strengths and weaknesses.
No extra programming, no extra explaining, no extra gameplay issues.
Well, the ability to take enemies prisoners, and so on, *is* an extra gameplay issue. I mean, this makes more sense than knockout ships -- the Arilou are known for quick and silent abductions -- but it's still a lot of extra wrinkles if you're able to take prisoners, interrogate them, retrieve stuff from off of an exploding ship, and so on. And it still feels really convenient that 1) no crew are actually killed *during* the battle -- keeping in mind that, unrealistic as SC2's damage/crew counter is, it seems unlikely that you could batter down a ship to the point of destruction without killing anyone inside it, and 2) it's always possible to get crew off the ship *just in the nick of time*. Why don't they resist, as they do with Orz Space Marines? If the Arilou can forcibly beam them off the ship, why can't you do that *before* the ship blows up? Why can't you teleport onto a ship and take out the captain? And so on.
I'm not saying you couldn't explain this in a way that makes sense, but it's one layer too many, in my opinion. The run-away tactic is already well known from SC2 and doesn't need a new layer of explanation that creates a new tactic. If you really want the player to not fight, it might be best to *actually force him to not fight*, to force him to run away and play coward and understand how hard it is to get away from a hostile foe without harming him, to *tempt* him to use violence. That's more interesting, in my opinion, than looking for a convenient plot device that lets him have exciting battles and indulge his violent streak without worrying about the consequences of violence.
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Art
Guest
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Okay I'm REALLY confused about this game thing... not so much confused as pissed.... So I start out with a blade, okay this is fine, I blow up a few guys, this is good, now I'm battling a guy and a dumbass shofixti shows up and detenoates right into me ending the game... Now this wouldn't be so bad if I DIDN'T HAVE TO START ALL OVER I played for like 15 minutes, and I can't get further before a shofixti pops out of nowhere flying in and blowing me up... =\
What? What does this have to do with anything? We're talking about the plot for the TimeWarp Legacies single-player game. What are you playing, Gob?
If you want to discuss something unrelated start a new thread instead of posting to the bottom of an existing one.
Anyway, I've never played Gob but to win Blade vs. Scout battles you should try to stay out of range of his explosion. Since the Blade lets you accelerate backwards using your special-attack it shouldn't be that hard to pelt him with the seed gun while moving away, so that he stays in your range while you stay out of his. Anyway IIRC if you have full crew a Scout explosion won't completely kill you anyway, while it will completely kill him.
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UAF
*Many bubbles*
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Robot in Disguise
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Strange_Will - The full game is not ready yet, when you press New Game you get into work in progress thingy, which is pretty much GOB with some extra stuff thrown on it just to see if they work...
Anyway this thread is not the place to discuss it, feel free to start a new one though.
As to defeating a scout with a blade I'll refer you to Art's post.
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Deus Siddis
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"Well, the ability to take enemies prisoners, and so on, *is* an extra gameplay issue."
That was just an idea, perhaps for a specific mission. But just forget it, as it was a very minor point. The real point, is to get around killing the alliance crews.
"And it still feels really convenient"
Exactly, convenience is the point of this.
"1) no crew are actually killed *during* the battle -- keeping in mind that, unrealistic as SC2's damage/crew counter is, it seems unlikely that you could batter down a ship to the point of destruction without killing anyone inside it,"
The crew counter thing is a bit of a problem, I guess you could say that they were knocked out, injured, or whatever. They don't get off without a scratch, which gives you the moral dilemma you wanted in the game.
As for the realism, I wouldn't worry about it. I'm sure you can come up with about a million cut corners from SC2. That's what made the game so fun, it was not weighed down by too much realism.
"2) it's always possible to get crew off the ship *just in the nick of time*. Why don't they resist, as they do with Orz Space Marines? If the Arilou can forcibly beam them off the ship, why can't you do that *before* the ship blows up? Why can't you teleport onto a ship and take out the captain?"
You got off just in the nick of time in SC2. Even if the enemy alliance crews wanted to resist against the force which is saving their lives, they just get teleported instantly, so how could they possibly resist it. You can't teleport crew off of a functioning ship, only one that is destructing.
"I'm not saying you couldn't explain this in a way that makes sense, but it's one layer too many,"
Just the opposite, it is an alternative to a layer (stunning/running). At the beginning of the game, you get this device and the arilou tell you that with it, your crew will automatically save the lives of alliance crews, during battle.
This can all be explained, it's just a matter of why you want there to be conflicts with alliance ships, in the first place. Do you:
1) Want the player to get a chance to fight every ship in the game, including alliance ships?
2) Or do you want the player to a have moral dilemma/consequences for killing his kin.
If it's number 2, then the player might eventually get bored of jumping out of battle, or losing stun ships (which should be less powerful than a win-at-all-costs warship, right?)
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Art
Guest
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"Well, the ability to take enemies prisoners, and so on, *is* an extra gameplay issue."
That was just an idea, perhaps for a specific mission. But just forget it, as it was a very minor point. The real point, is to get around killing the alliance crews.
And you shouldn't be able to do that at the drop of a hat, in a way that makes the game make less sense.
"And it still feels really convenient"
Exactly, convenience is the point of this.
It *feels* convenient, is the problem. It feels like this isn't something that happens naturally in the game -- it's something created by the designers just to get out of a sticky quandary. You don't *want* loose ends like that all over your game -- you want to plan *ahead* so that the game feels seamless, rather than leave visible the places where you painted yourself into a corner and cheated yourself out.
SC2 had moments like that, but they were fewer and farther between than in other games, which is what made SC2 a *better game* than other games.
The crew counter thing is a bit of a problem, I guess you could say that they were knocked out, injured, or whatever. They don't get off without a scratch, which gives you the moral dilemma you wanted in the game.
Look -- if you don't have a problem with a moral dilemma, then just *kill the crew*. Don't pussyfoot around with this "they're-just-wounded" nonsense.
That's what made the game so fun, it was not weighed down by too much realism.
Not "realism" so much as "mimesis" -- it doesn't have to feel like this could happen in real life, it just has to feel like they're not cheating. There's a difference.
There's a blatant feeling of annoying fakeness that creeps over me when I watch old kids' shows like GI Joe, say, where no matter how bad things get no one ever actually dies or gets seriously injured -- where everyone escapes from the exploding ships in the nick of time, where the bullet only wounds or knocks people unconscious instead of killing them, and so on.
SC2 was cool because it didn't make things *feel* less real by removing the stakes. You really were fighting for life and death -- whole races could be wiped out of existence by your actions.
You got off just in the nick of time in SC2. Even if the enemy alliance crews wanted to resist against the force which is saving their lives, they just get teleported instantly, so how could they possibly resist it. You can't teleport crew off of a functioning ship, only one that is destructing.
I'm not asking "why". I'm sure you can come up with a reason why. I'm really saying that no matter what it'll seem fake -- there's no good reason *within* the story why such a device should exist, or why you should use it, only a reason *external* to the story.
(And in SC2 you got off in an escape pod that was under your control just before you detonated a bomb that was *also* under your control. There was never any guarantee that there was an escape pod to take you right back to the Starbase just before the Vindicator got blown up by something else)
"I'm not saying you couldn't explain this in a way that makes sense, but it's one layer too many,"
Just the opposite, it is an alternative to a layer (stunning/running). At the beginning of the game, you get this device and the arilou tell you that with it, your crew will automatically save the lives of alliance crews, during battle.
This layer *or* that layer are both layers too many. Just *retain* the original combat tactic of running away, which you will have reason to use elsewhere in the game anyway, and which feels like an all-purpose mechanic rather than something designed to get you past this one plot point.
I mean, think about it -- the Arilou come and tell you, "Hey, buddy, just in case you ever, say, get framed for a crime you didn't commit and have to fight innocent police officers, this'll let you do it without feeling guilty." Talk about foreshadowing, and shattering the fourth wall.
This can all be explained, it's just a matter of why you want there to be conflicts with alliance ships, in the first place. Do you:
1) Want the player to get a chance to fight every ship in the game, including alliance ships?
NO. You had no such opportunity in SC2. Why should you have this opportunity now? You want to play around with different ships vs. different ships, play Melee -- that's what it's *for*. In the story mode the story takes precedence over what would make cool gameplay. What next, are you going to figure out a justification to give the player access to every Hierarchy/bad-guy ship in single-player?
2) Or do you want the player to a have moral dilemma/consequences for killing his kin.
If it's number 2, then the player might eventually get bored of jumping out of battle, or losing stun ships (which should be less powerful than a win-at-all-costs warship, right?)
So don't make there be that many encounters. Make it just annoying enough -- say, a patrol of 4 or 5 ships -- that the player is faced with this dilemma but not so annoying that warping out will be *impossible*. Then make it clear that going back into Alliance-controlled space is a Bad Idea by giving him encounters whenever he does that, and it'll oh-so-gently nudge him into going to the New Arm. It should be possible to complete all your required tasks without traveling extensively through Alliance spheres of influence -- if not, then *make* it so.
Yes, running away is less *fun* than fighting. It's supposed to be. It's not a moral dilemma if you give nothing up by not fighting, is it now? Maybe the player should be forced to confront his violent, trigger-happy instincts, at least for part of the game. (SC2 was nice because it put oh-so-subtle pressure on you to favor diplomacy over combat, at multiple stages of the game. It, again, made you feel like you were in a real place where your consequences had real actions, rather than a magic killfest arena created for your pleasure.)
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Art
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That's about what I was suggesting. There could be moral consequences throughout the game that affect gameplay or the ending. Remember that in the plot Zelnick sends the Ilwrath against the Chmmr, which is also killing alliance forces, even if they're hostile. The player could have the choice whether to do that, or evade more Chmmr ships when getting the shield device.
But I think the best way to do the alliance thing is just to play as Talana, Nir, or Wu'bi, because breaking him out of jail makes no sense.
Urgh, no. Please no sudden switch of main-character POV. This is the sort of thing that, when playing an uber-linear game like Final Fantasy, jumps out at me in my chair and screams "YOU'RE PLAYING AN UBER-LINEAR GAME LIKE FINAL FANTASY!!!"
Seriously, I liked SC2 because it felt like you could go anywhere and do anything as long as you had the fuel, and that things progressed because of your actions, not because of random things that happened to you at the game designer's whim. One doesn't have to stick *strictly* to that model of game design, but suddenly ripping the POV away from one character and putting it on another -- for no other reason than plot exigencies -- is as much as saying, "This isn't a real place -- this is a series of puzzles the game designer wants you to solve before you can see the ending".
In other words, I'm already leery about just how much of a plot bottleneck this whole Framed! thing is gonna be. But it'll be much, much more of one if, instead of being a reason to suddenly change Zelnick's alliances and make life harder for him, it actually takes Zelnick *out of the story* and makes you play as someone else. Mimesis is fragile enough without suddenly -- and unexpectedly -- shattering the player's identification with the player-character.
And, anyway, how hard can it be to give the player a reason to believe that breaking out of jail is important? (Unless you insist that the order in which we read things in this plot is immutable, which it shouldn't be -- you don't know what's the best order in which things should happen until you've started playtesting, in some cases.) Give him a mysterious prophecy that says in six months' time all life will be destroyed in the Old Arm or something. Show him an AI-controlled sphere of influence that's steadily expanding. Give him a distress call relayed to him from one of the New Arm races, and give the Alliance a reason to think it's a forgery or a fraud. Do *something* -- make him feel urgency. (This is important *anyway* -- SC2 did a good job of feeding you enough scary tidbits about the Ur-Quan that you shouldn't have felt safe poking around and mining all the time. Don't put the player on rails, but make him realize his time is limited because matters are progressing behind his back.)
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Deus Siddis
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"Maybe the player should be forced to confront his violent, trigger-happy instincts, at least for part of the game."
What? I don't have violent instincts! (Swats a fly buzzing around his keyboard.)
"I'm already leery about just how much of a plot bottleneck this whole Framed! thing is gonna be."
I'm not sure about it either, which is why I thought it might be beneficial to not make it such a big deal, with stun ships and burning precious fuel trying to escape. Including too many sub features can hurt a small freeware project.
Anyway, it's just a suggestion.
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UAF
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I was just suggesting (it's a minor point really) that it would be more natural, both in gameplay and story, and probably easier to program, if you just made having a drone in your fleet piloted by Wu'bi a requirement for the Druuge starbase part of the quest, rather than using the Drone image.
Yeah that'll work 
The problem is the player side of the deal - when he need to take Wu'bi and his ship to the New Arm. Although it's not really an issue - Wu'bi can just get off the ship when the player docs at a starbase in the New Arm.
They seek hyperwave transmissions, so they just have to get within whatever their range is. And a ring of influence wouldn't make sense with 2 opposing sides in 3D space, or with 2 sides eventually meeting. Still, you're probably right about them not covering the entire galaxy, probably just the areas near this ring. The main plot hole would be the Taalo. If the Taalo are near Earth, then wouldn't the Ur-Quan have been in the SC2 area of space already? Did the Dynyarri send them to the other side of the galaxy for no reason?
Actually that's not a problem. It is indeed possible and even likely that the Ur-quan original HW was somewhere in the area of SC2's starmap since the Taalo are the ones who met them, however it doesn't have to be that way since the milieu did span over most of the galaxy. At any case the Ur-quans did not start their paths in their HW - they did it in the area of the Maul-num HW, where the first doctrinal war begun.
Which means that the Maul-num HW is more or less in the opposite side of the galaxy then ours.
The Kzer-Za were repelled, though, yes, they kept at it after getting battle thralls and the Sa-Matra. So the Kohr-Ah wouldn't go away for centuries as I was suggesting. The Niko would have hidden somehow, like the ZoqFotPik and Druuge, for this plot point to work. Either hiding completely, or tricking the Kohr-Ah.
The Gerzillion works, but why would he move them?
SC2 suggested that the Arilou didn't know about the Kohr-Ah.
They could hide by not using hyperwave broadcasts, perhaps due to some religious reason, but that's somewhat similar to the ZoqFotPik and Druuge.
Denrode or Alkory technology might hide the new arm races from Kohr-Ah detection.
A prophet of Ssssrila predicts doomsday and/or tells the followers to make a pilgrimage to some other planet before the Kohr-Ah show up, by pure luck or getting information from some other species (the reason should be embarassing). The planet is in the area of the new arm where the Alkory, etc. are, which the Niko actually aren't native to (the new arm races in the game are a long way from the Kohr-Ah path). "Unfaithful" Niko are destroyed by the Kohr-Ah. So the Kohr-Ah are the origin of the bad guys of TW Light. Niko leaders use them as a threat for species who aren't members, who have never heard of Kohr-Ah and of course think the Niko are crazy. Then the captain shows up and Niko mythology is confirmed when he mentions the Kohr-Ah.
I like the last idea. We don't really have to answer who warned the Niko or why. The player will learn that it happened around 2,400 years ago, which is 100 years after the Gzerllion left the Ger, but that's the only thing he'll find.
Whoever saved the Niko did it while they were still fairly primitive, and instructed them to "spread the word, warn others and prepare themselves for the coming of the evil Kohr-ah."
Over the years the Niko developed into the theocracy they are now, with corrupted and power hungry "Church of Ssssirpa" as their leaders.
Their belief is now that anyone who follows the Church of Ssssirpa is protected from all harm, and that everyone must be converted into followers.
The player coming and claiming that the Kohr-ah are defeated will only cause them trouble and convince them that removing him from the picture is essential.
As for the entire discussion about the player being framed, knock-out ships and such:
Giving the player a device to teleport crew out of the enemy ship is essentially identical to the original idea of equipping all ships with knockout weapons that'll only be used against NAFS ships.
And It's still an easy way out
GameMusic's idea of giving the player control on another character for the time being is probably the cleanest and completely not cheesy-looking way to solve the problem.
However it does mean that we loose some things:
1) The player is now defiantly limited to finishing this quest before he can continue to advance in any other quest (since we don't want the game solved by Nir instead of the "player".
This is in contrast to our recent intention of removing the limitations mentioned in the .doc and allowing the player to travel anywhere on the map (including the new arm) before solving this quest. (So we're increasing limitations instead of decreasing them).
2) The player won't be facing the moral dilemma that he'll otherwise face.
And I think that forcing the player to face moral dilemmas is rather fun
(He'll get to fight alliance ship at any case BTW, since the AI's can take over them, but that was done to make the AI a serious threat).
So I'd like to keep the dilemma if possible.
First problem is why indeed should he escape?
While it's clear that something is wrong at the time, the player doesn't know the full scale of the problem yet. In fact no race has yet to convert to the Niko religion when he left the New Arm.
As Art said, the player needs a good reason as to why he should escape.
Perhaps a good way is this:
By intercepting and decoding Chmmr transmissions Talana and Nir learn that the Chmmr plan to arrange the player's murder while he's still awaiting trial.
They're also amassing their forces, undoubtedly preparing something that no one will like.
Thus, they are forced to help the player escape before he's being murdered, and to help in finding what's wrong with the Chmmr.
As for the player killing alliance officers and crew - The option to escape should and will be open to the player. Should he choose to fight, the Pkunk Queen will use her influence to pros pone the player's trial to after the current problems are solved.
Since it was proved that he was framed, and since after proving his innocence the Chmmr will go haywire and become hostile, it's clear that something is going on and no one have time to deal with his trial anyway.
However it'll be clear that once things will relax (after the game is over) he'll need to answer for his actions.
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« Last Edit: May 16, 2005, 05:08:14 am by UAF »
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GameMusic
Zebranky food
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I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
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Ok, cool idea here.
The player never gets arrested. He didn't actually break any laws.
But he gets kicked out of Star Control, and loses his rank. The humans don't trust a captain who would sell crew. You keep your ship and fleet because you built them technically as a Pkunk captain. So alliance bases no longer do business with you, and you are unpopular with many of them.
This makes it open, and the player can clear the accusations at any time.
You can keep the moral dilemma by having certain things that make the game easier if you steal them from the alliance, although it will make other parts of the game harder because you won't have full cooperation later. Whether you steal also affects the ending, and some other moral dilemmas in the game would be the Chmmr and the AI controlled ships.
Actually that's not a problem. It is indeed possible and even likely that the Ur-quan original HW was somewhere in the area of SC2's starmap since the Taalo are the ones who met them, however it doesn't have to be that way since the milieu did span over most of the galaxy. At any case the Ur-quans did not start their paths in their HW - they did it in the area of the Maul-num HW, where the first doctrinal war begun.
Which means that the Maul-num HW is more or less in the opposite side of the galaxy then ours.
Good point.
I like the last idea. We don't really have to answer who warned the Niko or why. The player will learn that it happened around 2,400 years ago, which is 100 years after the Gzerllion left the Ger, but that's the only thing he'll find.
Whoever saved the Niko did it while they were still fairly primitive, and instructed them to "spread the word, warn others and prepare themselves for the coming of the evil Kohr-ah."
Over the years the Niko developed into the theocracy they are now, with corrupted and power hungry "Church of Ssssirpa" as their leaders.
Their belief is now that anyone who follows the Church of Ssssirpa is protected from all harm, and that everyone must be converted into followers.
The player coming and claiming that the Kohr-ah are defeated will only cause them trouble and convince them that removing him from the picture is essential.
Yes, although while he is a threat they want to discredit and get out of there, he also gave the Niko credibility in the point of view of other new arm races, which makes their joining when the Mrmrnmhrm show up more logical.
As for Ssssirpa actually being the Gerzillion (who warned races in the area), that's actually a very cool idea. Maybe he gave them technology for space travel, proving his divine nature and greatly influencing Niko cultural development. Though, as I saw it, the church of Ssssirpa was not the only religion on their planet, and the Niko had many competing religions, explaining the drive to convert by force and make church leaders powerful. Maybe the Gerzillion happened to match Ssssirpa most out of all the Niko religious concepts, and that's how the church got power, or the church of Ssssirpa was started immediately when the Gerzillion showed up. But if Ssssirpa actually exists, that means there's no secret the Niko leaders are guarding, and doing the Mrmrnmhrm plot suggests doubt in the existence of Ssssirpa. And how would they explain the similarity of the Gerzillion legend to Ssssirpa (unless both became so exaggerated in legend that the 2 were not that similar)?
Of course, I'm still partial to the idea that the prophet of Ssssirpa got drunk and came up with doomsday (which he just happened to be right about) in a stupor, and that's the big secret that you keep trying to learn about the Niko origin, because I have an odd sense of humor. The idea of a doomsday cult with questionable origins happening to be right by luck amuses me. Maybe both ideas could work if the prophet made the prediction before the Gerzillion showed up, confirming it and becoming Ssssirpa in their legends.
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« Last Edit: May 16, 2005, 06:15:12 am by GameMusic »
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