The Ur-Quan Masters Home Page Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
March 28, 2024, 02:42:25 pm
Home Help Search Login Register
News: Celebrating 30 years of Star Control 2 - The Ur-Quan Masters

+  The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum
|-+  The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release
| |-+  General UQM Discussion (Moderator: Death 999)
| | |-+  TW-ligt plot
« previous next »
Pages: 1 ... 5 6 [7] 8 9 10 Print
Author Topic: TW-ligt plot  (Read 38883 times)
Chrispy
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 917


Vlik Dweller


View Profile
Re: TW-ligt plot
« Reply #90 on: May 12, 2005, 01:46:01 am »

They dont have the same defination. Average means similar to everything else (the norm). It also is a math term. Mediocre is an in between word (between words such as bad and good) and usually has a negative connotation, though it has a medium denotation.

Another thing we would loose is background for words. Mephistophelian means like the devil, as portrayed wiht the character mephistopholese. So it is different then demonic, or satanic.
Logged

Deus Siddis
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1387



View Profile
Re: TW-ligt plot
« Reply #91 on: May 12, 2005, 03:17:39 am »

"As far as language mockery -- it doesn't matter whether language is an intrinsic part of one's identity or not. It's annoying to bring it up as something to mock"

1) It's also annoying to take apart someone's hard work, which is why I apologized for both of these things. I could have been honest without flying over the top.

2) Would you be offended if one mocked a dead language?


"just as it would be if people started coming out of the woodwork to rag on AOL users"

Hehe, that's reminds me of something. There have been arguments about what the "A" stands for by some people (not me).


"if you were an AOL user"

I am.


"It's not that it's racist or whatever, just irrelevant and not really funny."

1) Whoa, that doesn't even make sense. If you want to get into a dramatic debate, go restart one of those old political threads in the Starbase Cafe. This was about TWL, once upon a time.

2) I had somekind of cold with a damn headache when I posted a lot of the stuff before. Wasn't really sure which way was up. I should have just stopped talking in the beginning, but I kept trying to explain and each time made things worse. Not even sure if it makes sense. Anyway, it's easy to over state something when you can only use text, and no tonality. Also, I wasn't serious about anything, anyway. I never wanted to harm the TWL project. I apologize. If I could go back in time, I would hit myself over the head with a mallet, as I was writing the first post.
Logged
GameMusic
Zebranky food
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 22


I love YaBB 1G - SP1!


View Profile
Re: TW-ligt plot
« Reply #92 on: May 13, 2005, 08:58:33 am »

The .docs work in NoteTab Light.  I want to contribute ideas to this project.

What I like about the plot:

You don't crap on the SC2 races with bad plot devices like turning the Utwig into androids.  Every race seems to act in character.

The Ur-Quan should definitely not be the main bad guys.  SC2 says they were defeated, and Toys for Bob in the chat confirmed it.

Explaining a ton about the Orz would be a bad move, as you said most fans would dislike most explanations.  Wait until a sequel when you have more experience to try that, good idea.

The new races, as I said.

What I don't like about the plot:

The framed quest makes little sense.  Why would the Umgah know the Druuge have evidence of use, why would the Druuge frame the captain, and what is this evidence?  Also, having a ship slot used up and making the player stay in a certain part of the map is annoying.  The part about the captain's ships being modified to have knockout weapons is very contrived and not believable.  But it can work.  Make the quest more open so that the player can do it any time.  Alliance races other than the races that believe you're innocent won't let you use their starbases until you do.  Don't require the player to use a ship slot, but just to have a drone when doing the part of the quest where you sneak into the Druuge base.  And don't modify the captain's ships, but just require him to use a specific ship type that uses non-lethal weapons when fighting alliance ships (more on this later).  That still leaves the plot issues though.  Can you explain the answers to those questions?

An improbability drive raises the issue of why you can't just use it to travel everywhere.  There should be some explanation.  I'm thinking about it and might come up with something.

The MK2 is a cruiser, according to Toys for Bob, not a more powerful version of the MK1.  The Salvation sounds like a MK1 clone, and having the Pkunk make an equal to a Precursor ship detracts from SC2.  Both of these issues can be fixed without a big impact on the plot.  The Salvation would either be the product of alliance analysis of the MK1, or be a pure cargo ship with production capabilities, and the Pkunk would explain that they don't have the technology to make it powerful in battle (maybe the engines require too much energy to make it agile and support large amounts of firepower).  The MK2 can be a customizable battle ship, but there should be some thing to keep the player from constantly using it to blow away the enemy.  Maybe it's so powerful that it requires resources to use, or even better, multiple ships in enemy fleets are able to team up against it at the same time.  I always thought making the MK1 powerful was cheap in SC2 and preferred to use regular ships.

Minor dialogue tweak: Wu'bi should say that the hyperwave caster is even bigger than the one they used to play pranks, rather than saying he hasn't seen one since they used theirs.  Hyperwave casters are very common in the SC2 universe.  The power of the 2 hyperwave casters in your inventory is what makes them unique.

The captain wouldn't use alliance credits to pay for the dating sim, and Talana wouldn't want him to spend money that belongs to the alliance.  So I'm thinking there should be a separate personal credits count for the captain himself.  Maybe he could earn credits or Talana items through specific dialogue with various races, and this money could be used for other captain related things.

Tons of ideas:

Did SC2 ever explain why it took 20,000 years for the Ur-Quan to reach the SC2 area of space, or how much of the galaxy they covered?  I'm wondering if they would have encountered the new arm races.  The Kzer-Za are apparently more powerful than the Kohr-Ah.  They have battle thralls, and have been held back and forced to use the Sa-Matra at least twice.  So it seems likely that the Kohr-Ah were repelled too.  What if the Niko culture developed when something they believed to be Ssssrila stopped the Kohr-Ah many centuries ago?  The Kohr-Ah could even be a part of their mythology (and the mythological Kohr-Ah would be hilariously exaggerated or just wrong, due to differences in interpretation and the legend effect).  The truth about what really stopped the Kohr-Ah could be one of the mysteries of the game that the player has to investigate through dialogue.  Taking over the Mrmrnmhrm would be a natural plot for the leaders of their religion, since it would be similar to what originally popularized Ssssrila.  Let's say that the Niko leaders are actually starting to decline in power (the Niko religion has grown many factions with often amusing differences in opinion and interpretation), and come up with the Mrmrnmhrm plot to regain the belief and passion of the populace.  They would be the only Niko who know the truth about the Kohr-Ah or the Mrmrnmhrm.

The Estion Gunner is a nice ship design, but doesn't relate to the Estion culture.  The Estion Gunner could be used for a different race.  What if they have a ship that uses non-destructive weapons so they can capture enemy ships?  Those ships contain art, or are pieces of art themselves.  An example would be the Tau Archonn from Timewarp, which freezes ships.  The Estion are likely to attempt to steal any ship that captures their interest, and would probably send entire fleets to acquire the MK2, adding extra challenge to the game.  I'm not sure what kind of laws the Estion have, but if this would not be legal for them the attackers could be renegades.  This also gives the player a ship to use against the alliance.  The Estion would gladly trade ship designs for art, and similarly captains could be hired the same way.

I'd like to see more development of a few races and relationships, especially Mrii, Guph, Denrode, and new arm races meeting old arm races and might contribute ideas there too.

Those Jyglar are a dialogue writing goldmine and should have a gendered language (based on the language discussion here).
Logged
Deus Siddis
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1387



View Profile
Re: TW-ligt plot
« Reply #93 on: May 13, 2005, 09:22:12 am »

Is all the ship art in TWL completed?

What other art is needed, voice acting, creature sprites, etc.?
« Last Edit: May 13, 2005, 09:23:24 am by Deus_Siddis » Logged
Halleck
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 751


Personal Text


View Profile WWW
Re: TW-ligt plot
« Reply #94 on: May 13, 2005, 11:49:07 am »

I know that we need some more alien images and dialogues. Probably some more ships as well.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2005, 11:49:21 am by Halleck » Logged


Currently working on: Going outside more
UAF
*Many bubbles*
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 134


Robot in Disguise


View Profile
Re: TW-ligt plot
« Reply #95 on: May 13, 2005, 03:52:57 pm »

Deus: Ship art is defiantly not complete, in fact most races don't even have a ship for them.
Some ships are very likely to be used for some of the races (Estion Gunner, Khar Boomerang) with few or no modifications but for most races there isn't even an idea of the type of ship they should have.

I'll make another thread about it later asking for help and explaining what we do have.

GameMusic -

Framed questions:
The Umgah don't know about the Druuge evidence. The player knows that he's innocent, and therefore the evidence presented by the Chmmr is obviously fabricated. He makes a deal with the Umgah according to which their agent Wu'bi will break into the Druuge starbase (because the Druuge were the ones who created this fake evidence) and bring proof that it's all set up to frame the captain for something he did not do.

The Druuge would frame the captain because they were paid to do so by the Chmmr and Mrn (You're going to ask why the Chmmr and Mrn did that aren't you? Smiley ).

The evidence is records of the deal the Druuge made with the Chmmr and Mrn and the like.

The player will probably won't be forced to stay in that part of the galaxy, we're working on it.

Wu'bi's ship taking a ship slot - Hmmm... At first I thought it'll be a problem otherwise but battles aren't played like in SC2 anyway so I guess it'll be fine if the player get Wu'bi's ship as a "free" ship in fights considering that it's an Umgah Drone...


Knockouts weapons - Seems like either that cheap explanation (yes I know it's cheap) or ignoring the problem altogether and having the player killing allies without answering for it.
Since I always get annoyed when the "good hero" kill the cops without being punished I've preferred the cheap explanation way.

As for your idea there - while having a ship type that always use knockout weapons will explain things better it'll force the player to use only that kind of ship in battles. I think it'll be much more annoying then being forced to stay in one Arm here or there (which is already annoying enough for people to complain about).


Salvation and MK2 -
The Salvation is weaker then the MK1, and won't be able to use the better modules that the MK2 will be able to use.
It was build with the MK1 as inspiration (and using the information acquired on it from analysis) and for plot reasons can't be a joined alliance effort (as if they're going to listen to invest so much resources based on a vision from that deluded Pkunk queen). However the Queen can mention that they used quite a lot of their Precursor artifacts producing it.

The MK2 is also a deep space exploration vessel according to another conversation or email record from TfB that I've seen somewhere.
Actually whatever we'll make it doesn't really matter. You want a Cruiser - fine Smiley .
Point is - customizable flagship is something that should be kept (Things You Missed In SC3...). It will be more battle oriented and it'll be obvious.
How are we going to stop the player from constantly blowing away the enemy with it? Well he can try but TWL is using a different battle system then SC2.

No more 1on1 battles, this time entire fleets are thrown into the fray! Especially deadly in enemy solar systems that will be swarming with enemy ships, even the mighty MK2 will have trouble surviving.
No more killing VUX for money I'm afraid Wink

Hyper Caster - Make sense, will be done.

Alliance credits and private credits - nitpicking that will make the player scream. Would you like to use two "bank accounts" in the game?
The prices of these items will be small and insignificant in the big picture, plus the player did "earn" these credits by selling things to the Melnorme on his own.
So what you're saying is basically true, but will complicate matters more then we want.

Estion Gunner and Archon - Interesting points. I was intending to give the Archon to the Denrode (it is based on the Warlock design for the Denrode ship, although the only resemblance between Warlock's Denrode and TWL's is the name).
Maybe just moving the freezing affect from the Archon to the Gunner? Need more thought.

Relations between races (and not only new or old races) - will be done by dialog writers as it bear no real effect on the game. Anyway it will happen.
Logged
GeomanNL
*Many bubbles*
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 167


I love YaBB 1G - SP1!


View Profile
Re: TW-ligt plot
« Reply #96 on: May 13, 2005, 07:22:11 pm »

Quote
You don't crap on the SC2 races with bad plot devices like turning the Utwig into androids.


I suppose you're referring to the ppi? Your opinion is noted, but I really prefer if people would leave the ppi out of this discussion.

edit: ps., this this is the last time I'll ask Wink
« Last Edit: May 13, 2005, 11:52:30 pm by GeomanNL » Logged
Art
Guest


Email
Re: TW-ligt plot
« Reply #97 on: May 14, 2005, 05:31:04 am »

Quote

Knockouts weapons - Seems like either that cheap explanation (yes I know it's cheap) or ignoring the problem altogether and having the player killing allies without answering for it.
Since I always get annoyed when the "good hero" kill the cops without being punished I've preferred the cheap explanation way.


I really must protest. It's annoying when stories ignore potential moral dilemmas (like being able to gun down 200 cops with no remorse because you were framed) but it's *more* annoying to take a cheap route to *circumvent* moral dilemmas (like magically gaining the ability to fight off the cops without injuring or killing them).

You can make this story path a lot more interesting by giving the player dialogue options that make it clear it's an unpleasant, morally wrenching decision for him to have to fight past loyal Alliance members and kill innocent crewmen but he has to do it for the sake of saving the galaxy. And play with the irony that he's being forced to sacrifice for the greater good because people are accusing him of sacrificing for the greater good. ("Captain, you know I can't let you leave this place." "Don't make me do this, friend. I don't want to open fire but I will if I have to." And, you know, other stuff you can steal from the *good* cop shows.) SC2 did it when you were forced to fight Starship Clan Yehat, after all.
Logged
Art
Guest


Email
Re: TW-ligt plot
« Reply #98 on: May 14, 2005, 05:54:17 am »

Quote
The MK2 is a cruiser, according to Toys for Bob, not a more powerful version of the MK1.  The Salvation sounds like a MK1 clone, and having the Pkunk make an equal to a Precursor ship detracts from SC2.  Both of these issues can be fixed without a big impact on the plot.  The Salvation would either be the product of alliance analysis of the MK1, or be a pure cargo ship with production capabilities, and the Pkunk would explain that they don't have the technology to make it powerful in battle (maybe the engines require too much energy to make it agile and support large amounts of firepower).  The MK2 can be a customizable battle ship, but there should be some thing to keep the player from constantly using it to blow away the enemy.  Maybe it's so powerful that it requires resources to use, or even better, multiple ships in enemy fleets are able to team up against it at the same time.  I always thought making the MK1 powerful was cheap in SC2 and preferred to use regular ships.


I felt like the fact that you had to take away a lot of the MK I's weaponry to make it useful for carrying lots of cargo was a nice feature of SC2, though they could have made the tradeoff work better.

I don't see why, just because the Mk. II might be more optimized for combat than the Mk. I, it shouldn't *have* the non-combat abilities of the Mk. I, like launching landers and carrying cargo and such.

Quote
Minor dialogue tweak: Wu'bi should say that the hyperwave caster is even bigger than the one they used to play pranks, rather than saying he hasn't seen one since they used theirs.  Hyperwave casters are very common in the SC2 universe.  The power of the 2 hyperwave casters in your inventory is what makes them unique.


Agreed.

Quote
The captain wouldn't use alliance credits to pay for the dating sim, and Talana wouldn't want him to spend money that belongs to the alliance.  So I'm thinking there should be a separate personal credits count for the captain himself.  Maybe he could earn credits or Talana items through specific dialogue with various races, and this money could be used for other captain related things.


I think this is an unnecessary complication -- having to balance your own personal checkbook just to play this dating sim is overkill. I would actually prefer it if, if we have a dating-sim kind of thing, that it *not* involve buying stuff. (In fact I might *like* the dating-sim idea if you made it be about in-character actions the Captain could naturally do in the game -- say the right things at the right time to Talana, make little gestures for her, without doing anything as cliched as buying tickets for a cruise.)


Quote
Did SC2 ever explain why it took 20,000 years for the Ur-Quan to reach the SC2 area of space, or how much of the galaxy they covered?  I'm wondering if they would have encountered the new arm races.  The Kzer-Za are apparently more powerful than the Kohr-Ah.  They have battle thralls, and have been held back and forced to use the Sa-Matra at least twice.  So it seems likely that the Kohr-Ah were repelled too.  What if the Niko culture developed when something they believed to be Ssssrila stopped the Kohr-Ah many centuries ago?  The Kohr-Ah could even be a part of their mythology (and the mythological Kohr-Ah would be hilariously exaggerated or just wrong, due to differences in interpretation and the legend effect).  The truth about what really stopped the Kohr-Ah could be one of the mysteries of the game that the player has to investigate through dialogue.  Taking over the Mrmrnmhrm would be a natural plot for the leaders of their religion, since it would be similar to what originally popularized Ssssrila.  Let's say that the Niko leaders are actually starting to decline in power (the Niko religion has grown many factions with often amusing differences in opinion and interpretation), and come up with the Mrmrnmhrm plot to regain the belief and passion of the populace.  They would be the only Niko who know the truth about the Kohr-Ah or the Mrmrnmhrm.


Yeah, see, it kind of works if the New Arm is somehow physically detached from the Old Arm and you need Precursor tech to go there. (Hell, make the "New Arm" a separate satellite galaxy -- one of the Magellanic Clouds -- and I'm almost sold.) I still find it really dodgy that when the Ur-Quan went "around" the galaxy they literally just went "around" it, in a ring, rather than actually thoroughly scouring the galaxy for intelligent life. I mean, we heard PAGES and PAGES about how they're really, really freaked out about intelligent life. They're doing all this because they're terrified there might be another Glilandy out there, some backwater planet where a horrible and unstoppable monster is evolving. One would think they would try to be thorough, or at least not just barrel through the galaxy straight ahead and ignore everything above, below and to the sides of their flight path. Why even do this Path of Now and Forever thing if you're not going to do it thoroughly?

I really, really like the idea about the Niko having interacted with the Ur-Quan Kohr-Ah, by the way. It messes with the good guys/bad guys dichotomy in a very Star Control way.

Quote
The Estion Gunner is a nice ship design, but doesn't relate to the Estion culture.  The Estion Gunner could be used for a different race.  What if they have a ship that uses non-destructive weapons so they can capture enemy ships?  Those ships contain art, or are pieces of art themselves.  An example would be the Tau Archonn from Timewarp, which freezes ships.  The Estion are likely to attempt to steal any ship that captures their interest, and would probably send entire fleets to acquire the MK2, adding extra challenge to the game.  I'm not sure what kind of laws the Estion have, but if this would not be legal for them the attackers could be renegades.  This also gives the player a ship to use against the alliance.  The Estion would gladly trade ship designs for art, and similarly captains could be hired the same way.


Enh, kinda contrived. Plot things become sticky if you actually now have a ship that captures rather than destroys ships (so what *do* you do with a bunch of captured Mycon?) And liking art doesn't mean liking every unique thing a culture produces. Presumably they wouldn't find every single battleship design out there to be a work of art.

Logged
Halleck
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 751


Personal Text


View Profile WWW
Re: TW-ligt plot
« Reply #99 on: May 14, 2005, 06:20:30 am »

Quote
I really must protest. It's annoying when stories ignore potential moral dilemmas (like being able to gun down 200 cops with no remorse because you were framed) but it's *more* annoying to take a cheap route to *circumvent* moral dilemmas (like magically gaining the ability to fight off the cops without injuring or killing them).

You can make this story path a lot more interesting by giving the player dialogue options that make it clear it's an unpleasant, morally wrenching decision for him to have to fight past loyal Alliance members and kill innocent crewmen but he has to do it for the sake of saving the galaxy.
...

That sounds like an excellent suggestion, Art.

BTW, I have edited and uploaded five more race pages: The Jyglar, The Khar, The Kterbi, The Mmrnmhrm, and The Mokopo.
http://eliot.bambi.net/dump/tw/plot_index.html
« Last Edit: May 14, 2005, 06:21:58 am by Halleck » Logged


Currently working on: Going outside more
UAF
*Many bubbles*
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 134


Robot in Disguise


View Profile
Re: TW-ligt plot
« Reply #100 on: May 14, 2005, 07:45:22 pm »

About the Kzer-za and Kohr-ah paths:

I never imagined the Ur-quans actually conquering and entire galaxy with the SC2 area as the last free place. In SC2 it was said that they circled the galaxy each in a different direction until they met at the other side, which is open to interpretations I guess but I always saw it as creating some kind of "ring" of Ur-quan influence with free areas inside, outside, above and below it.

It's not that the Ur-quans are ignoring these areas, they just didn't get to them yet. 20,000 years might be a long time but it's a huge galaxy we're talking about here, and pretty much swarming with sentient life (15 sentient races natural and native in SC2's 500 stars area. How many stars are there in the galaxy?).
Seems logical that the path that I described will take them about 20,000 years. To actually finish the rest of the galaxy would've probably take millions of years if it's a possible task at all.

The way I see it the Ur-quan plan was simple - each sub-species get 20,000 years to think about its doctrine and test it, afterwards the side which is correct wins the war (thus proving that it's the righteous side) and then both sub-species will cooperate in enslaving or cleansing the rest of the galaxy.


Niko/Kohr-ah relations -
An interesting idea, but even if something saved the Niko what saved the other races in the area?
Also while it's possible and likely that the Kohr-ah have been stalled, it's impossible that they were completely repelled. They are not the type to decide that this enemy is too strong now and they'll deal with it later. In fact this is completely against the reason for their doctrine.

What can be done is that the Kohr-ah were stalled while this Ssssrila creature transported the Niko to safety and away from the Kohr-ah. Maybe not the entire race but just selected individuals.
Could be either the Gzerllion or the Arilou (both should be powerful enough to pull such a stunt).
Any thoughts?


Quote
I really must protest. It's annoying when stories ignore potential moral dilemmas (like being able to gun down 200 cops with no remorse because you were framed) but it's *more* annoying to take a cheap route to *circumvent* moral dilemmas (like magically gaining the ability to fight off the cops without injuring or killing them).

You can make this story path a lot more interesting by giving the player dialogue options that make it clear it's an unpleasant, morally wrenching decision for him to have to fight past loyal Alliance members and kill innocent crewmen but he has to do it for the sake of saving the galaxy. And play with the irony that he's being forced to sacrifice for the greater good because people are accusing him of sacrificing for the greater good. ("Captain, you know I can't let you leave this place." "Don't make me do this, friend. I don't want to open fire but I will if I have to." And, you know, other stuff you can steal from the *good* cop shows.) SC2 did it when you were forced to fight Starship Clan Yehat, after all.



I agree it'll be a great thing to have, but why isn't the player arrested and punished for killing these allies?
"I did it to save the galaxy" isn't likely to be accepted in the court, especially since the prosecutor is likely to claim that since the accusations against the player were faked he would've been found innocent.

(In other words let's find a good explanation and we'll use it in the game).
Logged
GameMusic
Zebranky food
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 22


I love YaBB 1G - SP1!


View Profile
Re: TW-ligt plot
« Reply #101 on: May 15, 2005, 04:28:29 pm »

Quote
You're going to ask why the Chmmr and Mrn did that aren't you?


Nah, I'm guessing the Niko see him as a threat? Smiley

Quote
Wu'bi's ship taking a ship slot - Hmmm... At first I thought it'll be a problem otherwise but battles aren't played like in SC2 anyway so I guess it'll be fine if the player get Wu'bi's ship as a "free" ship in fights considering that it's an Umgah Drone...


That's not quite what I meant, if I understand you correctly. This is what I was referring to:

Quote
Wu'bi come with his own Umgah drone, if it's destroyed Wu'bi will survive the battle using an escape pod, and the ship slot will still be taken by a Drone image, while Wu'bi will constantly bug the captain to build a new one for him (so the player can't free that ship slot by letting Wu'bi die).


I was just suggesting (it's a minor point really) that it would be more natural, both in gameplay and story, and probably easier to program, if you just made having a drone in your fleet piloted by Wu'bi a requirement for the Druuge starbase part of the quest, rather than using the Drone image.

Quote
Knockouts weapons - Seems like either that cheap explanation (yes I know it's cheap) or ignoring the problem altogether and having the player killing allies without answering for it. Since I always get annoyed when the "good hero" kill the cops without being punished I've preferred the cheap explanation way. As for your idea there - while having a ship type that always use knockout weapons will explain things better it'll force the player to use only that kind of ship in battles. I think it'll be much more annoying then being forced to stay in one Arm here or there (which is already annoying enough for people to complain about).


You could also give the player the choice whether to use knockout ships or not, or to just run from alliance ships.  Whether they do so could have some effect on dialogue and available stations later, or the ending of the game.

The best way to do it might be not having the alliance chase them.  The player can play as Talana, Nir, or Wu'bi, and try to clear the captain.  That makes sense because there's no reason for them to break him out of jail anyway.  Like you said, they have evidence proving he's innocent, so breaking him out and having the alliance chase them is pointless.

Quote
Salvation and MK2


Nice. The system battles sound interesting. How will the player control them? Do you use the MK2 while your fleet is computer controlled? Or do you use 1 ship at a time like GOB?

Quote
Alliance credits and private credits - nitpicking that will make the player scream. Would you like to use two "bank accounts" in the game? The prices of these items will be small and insignificant in the big picture, plus the player did "earn" these credits by selling things to the Melnorme on his own. So what you're saying is basically true, but will complicate matters more then we want.


Good point.  You should focus on gameplay over realism and plot.  But I bring up details like this because sometimes they lead to additional ideas. Smiley

Quote
Estion Gunner and Archon - Interesting points. I was intending to give the Archon to the Denrode (it is based on the Warlock design for the Denrode ship, although the only resemblance between Warlock's Denrode and TWL's is the name). Maybe just moving the freezing affect from the Archon to the Gunner? Need more thought.


The Estion shots could be designed to disable a ship like the ion cannons in X-Wing.  The Denrode could have a ship that uses their alchemy technology.  Basing the ship on the abilities of each species tends to make the ship more interesting.

Quote
I suppose you're referring to the ppi? Your opinion is noted, but I really prefer if people would leave the ppi out of this discussion.


Heh, sorry.  I didn't know you were with ppi.  Sort of a noobish moment there.  Somehow the few times I'm particularly negative about something online (on a different board), the writer shows up and responds to my post.  Tongue

Quote
I never imagined the Ur-quans actually conquering and entire galaxy with the SC2 area as the last free place. In SC2 it was said that they circled the galaxy each in a different direction until they met at the other side, which is open to interpretations I guess but I always saw it as creating some kind of "ring" of Ur-quan influence with free areas inside, outside, above and below it.

It's not that the Ur-quans are ignoring these areas, they just didn't get to them yet. 20,000 years might be a long time but it's a huge galaxy we're talking about here, and pretty much swarming with sentient life (15 sentient races natural and native in SC2's 500 stars area. How many stars are there in the galaxy?).
Seems logical that the path that I described will take them about 20,000 years. To actually finish the rest of the galaxy would've probably take millions of years if it's a possible task at all.

The way I see it the Ur-quan plan was simple - each sub-species get 20,000 years to think about its doctrine and test it, afterwards the side which is correct wins the war (thus proving that it's the righteous side) and then both sub-species will cooperate in enslaving or cleansing the rest of the galaxy.


They seek hyperwave transmissions, so they just have to get within whatever their range is.  And a ring of influence wouldn't make sense with 2 opposing sides in 3D space, or with 2 sides eventually meeting.  Still, you're probably right about them not covering the entire galaxy, probably just the areas near this ring.  The main plot hole would be the Taalo.  If the Taalo are near Earth, then wouldn't the Ur-Quan have been in the SC2 area of space already?  Did the Dynyarri send them to the other side of the galaxy for no reason?

Quote
Niko/Kohr-ah relations -
An interesting idea, but even if something saved the Niko what saved the other races in the area?
Also while it's possible and likely that the Kohr-ah have been stalled, it's impossible that they were completely repelled. They are not the type to decide that this enemy is too strong now and they'll deal with it later. In fact this is completely against the reason for their doctrine.

What can be done is that the Kohr-ah were stalled while this Ssssrila creature transported the Niko to safety and away from the Kohr-ah. Maybe not the entire race but just selected individuals.
Could be either the Gzerllion or the Arilou (both should be powerful enough to pull such a stunt).
Any thoughts?


The Kzer-Za were repelled, though, yes, they kept at it after getting battle thralls and the Sa-Matra.  So the Kohr-Ah wouldn't go away for centuries as I was suggesting.  The Niko would have hidden somehow, like the ZoqFotPik and Druuge, for this plot point to work.  Either hiding completely, or tricking the Kohr-Ah.

The Gerzillion works, but why would he move them?

SC2 suggested that the Arilou didn't know about the Kohr-Ah.

They could hide by not using hyperwave broadcasts, perhaps due to some religious reason, but that's somewhat similar to the ZoqFotPik and Druuge.

Denrode or Alkory technology might hide the new arm races from Kohr-Ah detection.

A prophet of Ssssrila predicts doomsday and/or tells the followers to make a pilgrimage to some other planet before the Kohr-Ah show up, by pure luck or getting information from some other species (the reason should be embarassing).  The planet is in the area of the new arm where the Alkory, etc. are, which the Niko actually aren't native to (the new arm races in the game are a long way from the Kohr-Ah path).  "Unfaithful" Niko are destroyed by the Kohr-Ah.  So the Kohr-Ah are the origin of the bad guys of TW Light.  Niko leaders use them as a threat for species who aren't members, who have never heard of Kohr-Ah and of course think the Niko are crazy.  Then the captain shows up and Niko mythology is confirmed when he mentions the Kohr-Ah.

Quote
Enh, kinda contrived. Plot things become sticky if you actually now have a ship that captures rather than destroys ships (so what *do* you do with a bunch of captured Mycon?) And liking art doesn't mean liking every unique thing a culture produces. Presumably they wouldn't find every single battleship design out there to be a work of art.


The .doc said anything unique, which would include the MK2, and sometimes cargo on board ships.
Logged
Art
Guest


Email
Re: TW-ligt plot
« Reply #102 on: May 15, 2005, 05:51:21 pm »

Quote

I agree it'll be a great thing to have, but why isn't the player arrested and punished for killing these allies?
"I did it to save the galaxy" isn't likely to be accepted in the court, especially since the prosecutor is likely to claim that since the accusations against the player were faked he would've been found innocent.

(In other words let's find a good explanation and we'll use it in the game).


Well, why does he break out of jail *at all*, then? This is the basic thing we have to clear up about this plot point before it makes any sense -- after all, even if I know I'm innocent and that there was evidence planted against me, it's still a crime for me to bust out of jail to avoid trial. In real life Zelnick would *still* stand trial for escaping jail *at all*, whether or not he fought and killed police officers along the way.

What makes him want to break the law and bust out of jail *now*? And how can he justify it to the Alliance government afterwards? If he can prove it was necessary to break out of jail to save everyone's lives then he can prove it was necessary to use violence to keep himself from being recaptured.

My thoughts are that if you really want to go with this whole escape angle, you have to give the player a reason to feel that escape is *urgent* in order to complete the greater mission -- tell the player that the trial won't take place until next year, and at this point give him information already in hand that proves that by next year the bad guys will have triumphed unless something is done. Otherwise you're just breaking out of jail because the game would be boring if you didn't, and that's the kind of plot element that undermines realism and keeps people from taking their in-game choices seriously.
Logged
Art
Guest


Email
Re: TW-ligt plot
« Reply #103 on: May 15, 2005, 05:58:02 pm »

Also: Giving the player an option to run away a la SC2 with a Warp Escape Unit (remember fighting Captain Tanaka?) or by some other method -- something that's possible but, perhaps, a bit harder and more resource-draining than fighting -- can allow you to still be a goody two-shoes and not kill good guys without the wrinkle of "knockout ships", which I still maintain screw things up. (If you have "knockout ships", why don't you use them *all* the time? Even if the ships are hostile to you, isn't it more moral to disable them and get away than to kill them, if they're not threatening anyone but you? And then wouldn't you be able to disable a ship, board it, take the crew prisoner and use the ship? It brings up all sorts of little wrinkles that SC2 nicely avoided by just having ships explode after you killed them.)
Logged
Deus Siddis
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1387



View Profile
Life Saver.
« Reply #104 on: May 15, 2005, 09:45:34 pm »

You could have it so there were no knock out ships and there is no killing of innocent lives.

The Arilou give you a device that allows you to teleport crew off of any ship you destroy as it is in the process of exploding. They can then be set free on a life pod. This also allows you to take enemies hostage, which could create some interesting plot situations, if so you pleased. Most importantly, you fight alliance ships in melee with whichever ship you have in your fleet, you don't have to use a stun ship with its particular strengths and weaknesses.

No extra programming, no extra explaining, no extra gameplay issues.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2005, 10:58:43 pm by Deus_Siddis » Logged
Pages: 1 ... 5 6 [7] 8 9 10 Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!