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Topic: The European Union (Read 6861 times)
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Lukipela
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The Ancient One
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Is a place where France recently voted Non to the new law. Anyone on this forum French, or European at all for that matter? What is your opinion on this, how do you think it will play out in the long run? How do you feel about the union in itself? Did you prefer your old currency to the Euro?
I'll start it out by saying I doubt this will sink the union. It'll delay certain aspects, but I believe that the E.U is here to stay for good, and that in a few decades, our countries will merely be states, as it is on the other side of the pond.
Anyone feel like discussing, sharing, quoting pertinent information at eachother?
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« Last Edit: June 05, 2005, 12:13:54 am by Lukipela »
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What's up doc?
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Shiver
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Semi-ignorant American perspective here. I don't think the many countries of Europe see eye to eye well enough to work as a bloc. Yet. Also, the eastern section needs to ramp up its economic muscle so as not to be a burden to the likes of Germany, England and France. And France may be a point of frustration, but they are the second largest economy in the region so their needs should be taken into account.
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Deus Siddis
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Well, I'm not sure I see the EU becoming much of a singular nation or superpower. Historically speaking, it is very rare that a superpower dies, and then comes back. Europe has already had her shot. So has the US, now it will probably be India or, if we are all very unlucky, China.
The EU and US have enjoyed some pretty nice golden eras, and we've grown fat on the spoils. I think you really need a base of modest, hard working, and intelligent individuals with a little bit of patriotism/cohesiveness. The two federations' obsessions with social programs, useless construction projects and entertainment, and our lack of foresight reminds me of the final period of Rome's history, just before her collapse.
I think the next superpower will come from a 3rd world nation with a focus on advancement. One that is less prone to blustering and more towards productive action, as compared to the old guards.
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GeomanNL
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Great disasters are coming soon
Sure. People have been saying this for centuries, and I think that in the end, one of them will be right about it; but so far, they were all wrong 
The EU only exists for a mere 40 years or so. Many people are older than that
I'm Dutch... the dutch had a referendum like the French a few days after, and also voted "no".
In both cases, it's probably more a vote against the current governments, than against europe.
Imo the referendum wasn't a good idea, because the issue is too complex. In order to make a decision, you need to
* read all the 500 pages of the constitution
* understand all of them
* decide on a yes or no to the whole set of them.
Or, you can skip these steps and follow the voice of a leader, and follow his opinion, but what's the point of having a referendum then?
Those laws are already in place and as far as I know, those laws are going to stay. So, not much will change, really.
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« Last Edit: June 05, 2005, 04:28:04 pm by GeomanNL »
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Death 999
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We did. You did. Yes we can. No.
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Wow. I'm with Synchris, except...
I see two possibilities: As energy becomes more expensive, the market will constrain people to use less. Either that or our exploitation of the weak is ratcheted up until it gets to be unbearable. Then the Umgah hits the fan.
Or, Antarctica collapses. The sea level rises. Then it's like the Umgah dropping the fan on Earth... at 0.9999999c. Har har har!
As for the EU, I don't think it's dead. The benefits are too great, and the real disadvantages too complex to be comprehended by enough people (heck, I forget what they are!)
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« Last Edit: June 05, 2005, 08:14:30 pm by Death_999 »
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Deus Siddis
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"* read all the 500 pages of the constitution"
Hehe, I remember reading about the EU's super constitution in the economist a while back. I was sure they would have wisened up and downsized it by now. Usually, when lawmakers create legal documents that lengthy, it's because they don't want us little people to know how the game is played. Signer be aware.
"As energy becomes more expensive, the market will constrain people to use less."
Ok, alrighty, we'll just car pool and stuff. But what happens when the food grows scarce?
"either that or our exploitation of the weak is ratcheted up until it gets to be unbearable."
Then it's WW3. Now's the time to get some good shades.
"Or, Antarctica collapses. The sea level rises."
That alone is not very devastating. An ice age might be a little worse, though.
"As for the EU, I don't think it's dead. The benefits are too great, and the real disadvantages too complex to be comprehended by enough people"
The disadvantage is that the EU, to some extent, turns into the US, which most europeans probably would not like so much. But I don't think it'll go that far. The EU will probably just become a lucrative economic arrangement for many or a few.
US: Join me, and together we will rule this world with an iron fist.
EU: I'll never join you! You're destroying the future.
US: No, I am your future.
EU: NO. . .NO. . .that's not true. . .that's Impossible!
US: Search your corrupt constitution, you know it to be true.
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« Last Edit: June 05, 2005, 08:54:47 pm by Deus_Siddis »
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Deus Siddis
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"hahahahaha...that was pretty good."
It was all too easy.
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Death 999
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You underestimate the power of a rising sea level to inundate a coastline. Imagine the expense of putting a dike around, say, New York, let alone, say, Florida. If Antarctica collapses, Florida will need one very quickly.
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Deus Siddis
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"Imagine the expense of putting a dike around, say, New York, let alone, say, Florida."
Imagine the savings of not having to dish out for rich people, when ever a flood/hurricane takes out their 5th vacantion homes and they cash in on their flood insurance. No land, no rebuilding. And if you can guestimate where the new shoreline will eventually be, you can pull a lex luther and get miles of coastline, dirt cheap. Cities eating your ozone? Let's see how much crap they emit when they're at the bottom of the sea.
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« Last Edit: June 06, 2005, 07:38:18 pm by Deus_Siddis »
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Death 999
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We did. You did. Yes we can. No.
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Not a valid answer. Imagine what submerging an industrial city would do to the ocean. Chemical plant here, nuclear power plant there, oil refinery there... It would make Exxon Valdez look like someone broke a can of WD-40.
Anyway, Florida would be almost entirely gone; and it isn't only occupied by rich folks who build expensive houses in precarious locations. Florida is one of the most populous states, after all.
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« Last Edit: June 06, 2005, 07:43:36 pm by Death_999 »
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Deus Siddis
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Well alright, so it wouldn't be the cleanest coastline, but it'd be yours and you wouldn't have many neighbors to fight with.
Sheesh, always looking at things as half empty.
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Lukipela
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Well, I'm not sure I see the EU becoming much of a singular nation or superpower. Historically speaking, it is very rare that a superpower dies, and then comes back. Europe has already had her shot. So has the US, now it will probably be India or, if we are all very unlucky, China.
Nitpicking, but the E.U has never actually been a superpower. Certain european countries have been superpowers through the ages, but Europe as a whole has never stood united. Since it hasn't died, you argument doesn't quite hold up. Not that I think E.U is going to become superpower, we have far too many leaders who just love to talk...
Personally, i think the setback might be a good thing. It'll delay the entry of new countries into the union for a while, which will give us a chance to raise the living standards in eastern europe
I think the next superpower will come from a 3rd world nation with a focus on advancement. One that is less prone to blustering and more towards productive action, as compared to the old guards.
Well, there is an African Union as well... Who knows? they certainly have the resources, if they'd just stop fighting eachother, they could probably achieve a lot.
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What's up doc?
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Culture20
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Only if they were actively paying on that debt. Lenders aren't going to instantly think they're a good risk just because another lender let them off.
It's mostly a hollow gesture, or at best a realization that GB can't squeeze blood from a turnip.
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