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Topic: Kohr-Ah Ur-Quan Homeworld? (Read 82934 times)
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Art
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The Kzer-Za, anyway, refer to the Kohr-Ah as "devils" and refuse to cooperate with them even when something as momentous as the Dnyarri coming back happens. You're assuming that that "devils" remark isn't just the opinion of one Kzer-Za soldier. And it's not that the Kzer-Za don't want to cooperate, it's just that they don't expect the Kohr-Ah to "see the danger until it is too late". One of the conceits of the game is that each captain you talk to is somehow a "typical" member of his race and speaks for everyone. Otherwise many things just don't make sense. (Yes, this is unrealistic. Like I said, conceit.)
Kzer-Za don't have "soldiers" in the sense you seem to mean -- there's a small number of Kzer-Za that all seem to view themselves as officers/council members/political leaders. It's part of the Ur-Quan ego. At least, some random Kzer-Za captain feels perfectly qualified to decide that your crimes merit execution, that you will be punished but your crew won't if you surrender, that you can be absolved of your crimes if you tell them about the Dnyarri, that they shouldn't talk to the Kohr-Ah Primat, etc.
And that excuse is a dumb one. Of course the Kohr-Ah won't see the danger until it's too late if they aren't told at all. Yes, the Kohr-Ah could slow down the process of searching for the Dnyarri if they argue or purposely try to obstruct or whatever, and yet it still seems far more logical to give the Kohr-Ah the *chance* to help rather than blindly insist on fighting the Doctrinal Conflict to its end. It feels like the Kzer-Za simply distrust the Kohr-Ah by instinct -- assume they will be headstrong and unhelpful -- even in the direst of straits.
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Frank
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But it is different -- it's a common misconception that dinosaurs are a form of reptile, when really they're a transition between reptiles and modern avians. Not to niggle, but since you seemed to feel obliged to niggle with my example, what the hell.
First of all "dinosaurs" is an incredible broad term with little biological basis that is essentially of the same vintage as the notion that all infections are "fevers" or all rapidly spreading tumors are "cancer." You can stick any collective label on any group and make it stick, but that doesn't make it analytically useful.
That said, while there were some "dinosaurs" that had avian qualities -- particularly the late Cretaceous variety -- a blanket statement that dinosaurs were, as a group, a transition between reptiles and avians is just silly. Brontosaurs? Ichthysaurs? Triceratopses?
The dinosaurs that didn't go birdlike largely got wiped out, of course, so the bias to see them as pre-birds is, I guess, understandable. Mostly, it just seems faddish to me -- the fad started largely with Jurassic Park, which popularized the bird-like dinos (velociraptors especially). Dinosaurs, to the extent that the category is analytically useful, represent huge, lumbering, thick-skinned, reptilian creatures. If that concept has an heir today it is crocodiles, not turkeys.
Moreover, FWIW, crocodilians would have been classified as dinosaurs but for the fact that crocodilians were not extinguished alongside the other huge reptiles. The dinosaur label was pretty much just thrown on large, extinct, non-mammal / non-avian creatures, into which category crocodilians would have fallen.
Probably not worth arguing much more over, but there it is.
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Deus Siddis
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"They could easily pre-date even the Milieu, or come from some other galaxy altogether, or whatnot -- the fact that they moved their home planet to another dimension should tell you they're pretty beyond the tech-level of even the Milieu."
And yet they are not very effective in battle. They stand no chance against human cruisers, and don't do very well against UQ dreadnaughts (if not, then why didn't they just single handedly kick the UQ's asses?)
"the Arilou are Humans from the future."
Yea, I've had a similar theory. It shoots down the "if time travel were possible, where's all the time tourists," thing while explaining how come these "aliens" look like tiny dudes. Still, the problem is I feel no need to go back a million years and fight beside chimpanzees. I know they will survive, or else how can I exist? Anyway, I don't want to be a pasty little wimp who zooms around doing unnecessary surgery to people without getting to charge extreme medical bills. 
"The Ur-Quan could be wrong about this, sure, but the memories they have come from being the ones who actually invaded the world and killed all the Taalo, so."
It doesn't matter if there were any survivors on the homeworld, the taalo species is still alive (I don't think the orz lie).
"The landers you send there *tell* you that there's nothing alive on the surface."
But who killed off the ilwrath? The thraddash never set their fleet into ilwrath space. Besides, the ilwrath are not from chenjesu space, anyway. Their homeworld is someplace else (upspin, I think).
"They just don't count as homeworlds once no one's home anymore."
I consider a homeworld to be the place where a species evolved. That's why it is still called the "Taalo Homeworld", even though there are no Taalo on the surface.
"George Lucas himself was responsible for the Star Wars prequels, after all."
They left much room for improvement. Still, I think the core of the prequel's story was much more dramatic and involving than the last three episodes. If episodes 1-3 were made first, and 4-6 had just recently come out, what would fans be complaining about then? "Luke Skywalker is such a whinner" "Why is Anakin in that doppy comic book samari suit, for most of the movies?" "That pervert was in love with his sister? Yuk." "I many more 'death stars' are they going to build? And how did they build a new one so fast?"
"Cheesy? I liked it. It's backstory, it's explanation. It means the Kzer-Za do what they do for a reason rather than just being jerks."
Yes, but they didn't need to have 3 UQ species to explain that.
"It would not be a natural or painless process."
If it were painful, then the dynarri's altering sessions would have freed the UQ and rebellion would have taken place then and there. Remember, pain breaks the dynarri's hold.
"Anyway, the impression I get of the Process was that it was a planetwide process -- again, just as with the KZ and KA, all the language they use about it is as though it were a massive, whole-species-changing shift."
The Chmmr (unlike the chenjesu) are awful communicators. They didn't really explain much of anything when you get right down to it.
"Why should they need to have Brown Ur-Quan DNA to make Brown Ur-Quan?"
You're being too superficial. It's not just their carapace, it is their minds and constitution. GMOs never work right in the end, because organisms are just too complicated for you to just be able to change a few things. Remember your theories about the Mycon? If the Precursors couldn't even get it right, how could some couch pillows do it? The browns (though aggressive) were probably more balanced, evolutionary organisms.
"Alligators and crocodiles and things *already* existed *with* the dinosaurs, and when the dinosaurs died they kept on existing."
Say, what if some of the Crocodiles saved some of the Dinosaurs and brought them with them? Would birds be too set in their philosophies and feathers to accept the Dinosaurs?
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Deus Siddis
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"Brontosaurs? Ichthysaurs? Triceratopses?"
Ichthysaurs are not classified as Dinosaurs, but Marine Reptiles.
"The dinosaur label was pretty much just thrown on large, extinct, non-mammal / non-avian creatures, into which category crocodilians would have fallen."
No, Dinosaurs are basically the brethren of mammals. Both Mammals and Dinosaurs are warm-blooded, mostly verticle-legged, independent offshoots of Reptiles.
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Art
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"They could easily pre-date even the Milieu, or come from some other galaxy altogether, or whatnot -- the fact that they moved their home planet to another dimension should tell you they're pretty beyond the tech-level of even the Milieu."
And yet they are not very effective in battle. They stand no chance against human cruisers, and don't do very well against UQ dreadnaughts (if not, then why didn't they just single handedly kick the UQ's asses?) Ship strength is not directly correlated with a civilization's age, wisdom or power.
The Arilou *explicitly* say that they don't have that many skills in "corporeal" science, that they don't have many physical resources, and so on, and this is because their existence is mainly "spiritual". They also explicitly say that they prefer to intervene from behind the scenes and only as much as is possible to fit their goals -- that they have no desire to be major players in interstellar politics.
All this fits very well with the idea of a very old civilization that has passed *way* beyond the sorts of things we care about -- spaceships and resources and territory -- but has some particular, singular purpose they want to accomplish. Like humans who long ago lost the ability their ancient, ancient ancestors had to breathe underwater but who send little submersibles to the ocean floor for various missions. [quote["the Arilou are Humans from the future."
Yea, I've had a similar theory. It shoots down the "if time travel were possible, where's all the time tourists," thing while explaining how come these "aliens" look like tiny dudes. Still, the problem is I feel no need to go back a million years and fight beside chimpanzees. I know they will survive, or else how can I exist? Anyway, I don't want to be a pasty little wimp who zooms around doing unnecessary surgery to people without getting to charge extreme medical bills.  Ha. Well, for one thing, *you* don't know how time travel works. The grandfather paradox is only a paradox in a world where there's ever only one history, not where time travel entails splitting off alternate timelines and adding new possibilities to a set of all probable futures. It may be that in the SC2 universe the Arilou know that they must go back to the past to ensure the past occurs as they remember it -- that they have to maximize the probability of their existence through intervention, maximize the number of timelines where they survive, etc.
Some of the Arilou dialogue seems to directly hint at something like this -- their knowing the future, knowing the Human race has a destiny, being intimately related to humans, binding different "threads" of history together, etc. That's why I like this theory.
"The Ur-Quan could be wrong about this, sure, but the memories they have come from being the ones who actually invaded the world and killed all the Taalo, so."
It doesn't matter if there were any survivors on the homeworld, the taalo species is still alive (I don't think the orz lie). You're misinterpreting me again. I'm saying that there could only be Brown Ur-Quan if the Taalo had a working Taalo Shield that they could have used to protect the Browns from being mind-controlled long enough so they could take the Browns through whatever thing they used to go into another dimension, without the Dnyarri forcing the Browns to kill them.
The Ur-Quan tell you the Shield was not completed in time to be used, and that the Taalo were unable to use it to save themselves. I believe the Melnorme are the ones who tell you that there was only one prototype ever built and that it didn't work well enough to be useful.
In order for the theory that Browns went through the portal to work, it seems to me that these sources would have to be wrong -- there'd have to be another Shield that worked on a big enough scale that it could protect all the Browns while they were going through the portal.
"The landers you send there *tell* you that there's nothing alive on the surface."
But who killed off the ilwrath? The thraddash never set their fleet into ilwrath space. Besides, the ilwrath are not from chenjesu space, anyway. Their homeworld is someplace else (upspin, I think). WTF does Chenjesu space have to do with anything?
The Ilwrath homeworld is at the Great Eye of Dogar, at Alpha Tauri (I believe). This is completely unambiguous. The Ilwrath tell you this. The lander describes it as the homeworld when it lands on it when it's bombarded.
Yes, the homeworld is not in the Sphere of Influence on the map. That's because it's clear that the Sphere of Influence does not actually measure a race's political territory or whatever -- it's just an estimate of where their *fleets* are. The Pkunk SoI moves with the Pkunk fleet even while there are still Pkunk at the homeworld. Same deal with the Ilwrath -- the SoI doesn't cover the Great Eye of Dogar because their fleets have ranged far afield from the homeworld to guard the Chenjesu and Mmrnmhrm and kill the Pkunk.
When you *go* to the *Ilwrath homeworld*, the lander tells you that they've looked around and *eveyrone appears to be dead* -- there are *no signs of habitation*. On the *homeworld*.
I'm sorry to get upset again, but you seem to be purposely not paying attention to what I say.
As far as who killed them -- the SoI also doesn't include all ships or colonies of that race either. No reason that just because the Thraddash SoI doesn't ever move toward Ilwrath space that a strike team couldn't have gone out armed with a barrage of nuclear warheads to take out the capital.
"They just don't count as homeworlds once no one's home anymore."
I consider a homeworld to be the place where a species evolved. That's why it is still called the "Taalo Homeworld", even though there are no Taalo on the surface. Fine. Then every species, by definition (except maybe for completely artificial species like the Mmrnmhrrm) has a homeworld, and the original question is completely moot.
This isn't how the game uses "homeworld", or what most people think of when they say it. Either the Syreen or the Humans didn't originally evolve on their homeworlds, given how similar they are, but that doesn't make Earth or Syra less of a homeworld. Gaia is now very much the Syreen homeworld even though it's an adopted one. And so on.
"George Lucas himself was responsible for the Star Wars prequels, after all."
They left much room for improvement. Still, I think the core of the prequel's story was much more dramatic and involving than the last three episodes. If episodes 1-3 were made first, and 4-6 had just recently come out, what would fans be complaining about then? "Luke Skywalker is such a whinner" "Why is Anakin in that doppy comic book samari suit, for most of the movies?" "That pervert was in love with his sister? Yuk." "I many more 'death stars' are they going to build? And how did they build a new one so fast?" I don't really feel like arguing about a whole new topic. I really have nothing to say if you think the prequels were actually better than the original trilogy. (I don't think the original trilogy was all that good, but *come on*. I mean... *come on*.)
"Cheesy? I liked it. It's backstory, it's explanation. It means the Kzer-Za do what they do for a reason rather than just being jerks."
Yes, but they didn't need to have 3 UQ species to explain that. They didn't need to, but it was more interesting.
Why are you such a friggin' minimalist? Stories are more interesting when they have more details.
And it wasn't there Ur-Quan species. It was one Ur-Quan species that was divided into two. It's the brother-divided-against-brother idea.
It's really just because we've gotten in the habit of saying "Brown Ur-Quan" as though there was something special about them. Brown Ur-Quan aren't even called that in the game -- they're just described as brown, but always mentioned simply as "Ur-Quan". The regular Ur-Quan, who used to be one species, were made into two different species that hate each other. That's a tragedy, and that's interesting.
By this kind of logic, we absolutely must have a Zebranky appear in SC3, because you could have explained the Zoq-Fot-Pik becoming a cooperative without them. Or we must see Algolites in SC3, because you could explain Spathi carelessness and stupidity without them. Or we must see all the Milieu races in SC3, because you could have had a Sentient Milieu with just Taalo, Ur-Quan and Mael-Num, so if the other races are mentioned they must be important. Sheesh.
"It would not be a natural or painless process."
If it were painful, then the dynarri's altering sessions would have freed the UQ and rebellion would have taken place then and there. Remember, pain breaks the dynarri's hold. I don't mean literally painful. I mean it would result in social disruption and make a lot of people upset. There probably isn't any direct pain involved, since you wouldn't do it by changing adults into new forms -- you'd just genetically modify the gametes that form the new offspring so that all new babies are of the new species.
Besides, only a certain degree of huge, excruciating pain works to free Ur-Quan from Dnyarri control. Ordinary levels of pain don't work, or the Dnyarri would never have been able to maintain control for long at all.
"Anyway, the impression I get of the Process was that it was a planetwide process -- again, just as with the KZ and KA, all the language they use about it is as though it were a massive, whole-species-changing shift."
The Chmmr (unlike the chenjesu) are awful communicators. They didn't really explain much of anything when you get right down to it. I sort of liked their abrupt personality. It made sense for a species that wasn't used to having to say things in words (since they communicate naturally by radio signals and are sort of like a hivemind, as I see them).
"Why should they need to have Brown Ur-Quan DNA to make Brown Ur-Quan?"
You're being too superficial. It's not just their carapace, it is their minds and constitution. GMOs never work right in the end, because organisms are just too complicated for you to just be able to change a few things. Remember your theories about the Mycon? If the Precursors couldn't even get it right, how could some couch pillows do it? The browns (though aggressive) were probably more balanced, evolutionary organisms. *shrug* All the descriptions of the Ur-Quan don't show them to be that much more psychologically balanced than the Kzer-Za or Kohr-Ah.
And you go way to far by saying genetic engineering "never works". It never works perfectly, like any other kind of engineering, but it does, in fact, "work". That is, you can predictably make certain changes, and while those changes always impose tradeoffs, it isn't some written-in-stone Frankenstein's-monster rule that everything you do will go horribly wrong.
In any case, I don't see why the Kzer-Za or Kohr-Ah would *want* to change back. As I said, *they* seem pretty convinced they're all right, even if the rest of the galaxy doesn't. By their own standards they've been incredibly successful so far -- far more evolutionarily successful than any other species in the galaxy, given that they've killed or enslaved all the others.
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Frank
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Dinosaurs were warm-blooded. . . . At most, this is an unproven fringe hypothesis, no? Â Unless biology has changed a lot sense last I looked (which is quite possible).
Here's the best statement I can find on the issue, taken from a ludicrous creationist / evolutionist debate I found on another forum. Â It puts things elegantly, if rather hifallutinly:
I think you are conflating/confusing the two methods of classification. The Linnaean system lumps everything together into groups regardless of their monphyletaly, & names them. Cladistics only names monophyletic groups, & since "reptile" is paraphyletic, not monophyletic, it's in the dustbin. The word that replaced "reptile" (in a sense), is "amniote", & since birds & mammals are also amniotic, it is a valid monophyletic group. Dinosauria is a monophyletic group (that includes Aves), so in this sense, dinosaurs aren't reptiles, because they [reptiles] don't exist.
If, however, you are going to jump back to the old Linnaean system, & say crocs are reptiles, then in order to be consistent, dinosaurs are reptiles, too. Which classification system are you using, D_S (and Art), when you argue that Ichthysaurs are "marine reptiles" and not dinosaurs? Â What definition of "dinosaur" are you using?
When I use the term "dinosaur," which is itself, as I said, a fairly sloppy and useless term, I use it to connotatively more than denotatively and, remember, my usage of it was first in the thread. Â All I meant was simply, "Giant, scary lizards were largely wiped out, but you can still see crocodiles." Â Using the bird analogy perhaps would have been more apt, but, as a romantic, nothing short of the extinct elephant bird (damn those Polynesians and Captain Cook!) comes close to capturing "dinosaurness" for me. Â Huge, implacable crocs, on the other hand, do quite nicely.
As a side note:
Their cultures aren't passed down, or at least not in a separate, recognizable form. Sure. Â But I think the better analogy to the SM is a hegemonic power like Rome, not a regional one like the Etruscans (as significant a role as they may have played in history). Â Huge, powerful empires can be demolished and fade in prominence, but nevertheless Rome, the Ottomans, the Caliphate, the Chinese, even short-lived empires like Hitler's, will have continued cultural and ethnological existence until the Earth gets destroyed.
Now, I agree with you that in SC2 there are better means of wiping people out, and the Dnyarri might have been more thorough and effective, but who knows? Â What little we know about them suggests incredible incompetence (indeed, the one Dnyarri we meet is more like a petty, scheming Shylock than an all-powerful Elder of Zion), and given how easily races avoid annihilation in the SC universe, I'm comfortable with the idea that any of the races mentioned as destroyed could still be alive. Â If told badly, it would, of course, be bad story-telling, but then so is the complete repopulation of the Shofixi by a Jerry Lewis-style Asian stereotype. Â So, there you go.
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Art
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But it is different -- it's a common misconception that dinosaurs are a form of reptile, when really they're a transition between reptiles and modern avians. Not to niggle, but since you seemed to feel obliged to niggle with my example, what the hell. First of all "dinosaurs" is an incredible broad term with little biological basis that is essentially of the same vintage as the notion that all infections are "fevers" or all rapidly spreading tumors are "cancer." You can stick any collective label on any group and make it stick, but that doesn't make it analytically useful. This is... not true. The superorder Dinosauria is defined as being separate from other archosaurs, including the crocodilians, because they have upright legs that are set directly under their bodies, while other reptiles, like crocodilians and lizards, have legs that extend outward from their bodies.
This is how dinosaurs are defined by biologists, even if the word is used more loosely colloquially. An ichythysaur is therefore not a dinosaur, and neither is a pterodactyl, and neither is an iguanadon.
That said, while there were some "dinosaurs" that had avian qualities -- particularly the late Cretaceous variety -- a blanket statement that dinosaurs were, as a group, a transition between reptiles and avians is just silly. Brontosaurs? Ichthysaurs? Triceratopses?
The dinosaurs that didn't go birdlike largely got wiped out, of course, so the bias to see them as pre-birds is, I guess, understandable. Mostly, it just seems faddish to me -- the fad started largely with Jurassic Park, which popularized the bird-like dinos (velociraptors especially). Dinosaurs, to the extent that the category is analytically useful, represent huge, lumbering, thick-skinned, reptilian creatures. If that concept has an heir today it is crocodiles, not turkeys. Well, "transition" is an overly strong term, but yeah -- before dinosaurs there existed reptiles, and after dinosaurs existed birds, and birds are the descendants of the therapod version of dinosaurs. But even the other kinds of dinosaurs have things in common with birds that they don't with reptiles -- the shape of the joints that allows them to have upright legs is the big thing, and paleontologists suspect that dinosaurs may have begun to develop warm-blooded-ness.
The thing is that birds *are directly descended from a kind of dinosaur* -- they're descended from therapods like the T-Rex. Paleontologists who use cladistic taxonomy will say that, properly, birds really are a kind of dinosaur -- birds are a kind of therapod, which is a kind of dinosaur, even if birds have attributes that earlier kinds of dinosaurs all lacked.
This isn't true for any other kind of animal today. Modern reptiles like lizards and crocodilians are descended from *non*-dinosaur reptiles that lack the dinosaur bone structure. Same thing with mammals, which descended from therapsids, which are distinct from dinosaurs -- in fact, before the Permian extinction *they* were the dominant form of large life on Earth and the dinosaurs replaced them when they dwindled almost to extinction, and then the K-T extinction arrived and the therapsids' mammal descendants took the top dog place back.
So saying the modern versions of dinosaurs are birds isn't just a fad -- it has some pretty strong basis in fact. Sure, sauropods and ornithiscians as opposed to therapods don't look much like birds, but then there were kinds of therapsids that don't have much to do with modern mammals. That doesn't invalidate the "mammals are the modern heirs of therapsids" idea.
Moreover, FWIW, crocodilians would have been classified as dinosaurs but for the fact that crocodilians were not extinguished alongside the other huge reptiles. The dinosaur label was pretty much just thrown on large, extinct, non-mammal / non-avian creatures, into which category crocodilians would have fallen. No, it wasn't. It specifically was coined for those large, extinct creatures that have reptilian features otherwise but seem to have a more developed, "modern" skeletal structure, with the upright legs. Dinosaurs aren't even taxonomically reptiles -- by the original, non-cladistic definition of "reptile" -- for this reason, and crocodilians are.
(Cladistic taxonomy says dinosaurs are reptiles, but it also says birds and mammals are reptiles -- it defines a "reptile" as anything that was descended from the first animal to have the characteristics of a reptile.)
Dinosaurs are *like* crocodilians, yes. They're both classified as members of the class "archosauria" by paleontologists. But taxonomically they are distinct. Crocodilians, because they lack the dinosaurian skeletons, were less competitive on land and were thus predominantly water animals, just like they are today -- the informal, colloquial definition of "dinosaur" usually stipulates that they have to be *land* animals, even leaving aside the taxonomic business, so that's another point against saying crocodilians should be dinosaurs.
Besides which, the crocodilians of that era contained many very large species that are now extinct -- if the term "dinosaur" were as all-encompassing as you claim those would be "dinosaurs" even if modern crocodiles and alligators weren't. But no paleontologist uses that term for them, because they're *not* dinosaurs.
Probably not worth arguing much more over, but there it is.
Well, I'm pretty sure you were factually wrong or arguing from bad facts in what you said, so hey.
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Art
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Dinosaurs were warm-blooded. . . . At most, this is an unproven fringe hypothesis, no? Unless biology has changed a lot sense last I looked (which is quite possible). Not "fringe" at all. Probably never provable, unless we somehow manage to clone a living dinosaur, but quite a popular theory last I checked.
Here's the best statement I can find on the issue, taken from a ludicrous creationist / evolutionist debate I found on another forum. It puts things elegantly, if rather hifallutinly: Which classification system are you using, D_S (and Art), when you argue that Ichthysaurs are "marine reptiles" and not dinosaurs? What definition of "dinosaur" are you using? Umm... the one I learned in fourth grade, and have repeatedly seen in science texts since then, and that is here?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinosaur
When I use the term "dinosaur," which is itself, as I said, a fairly sloppy and useless term, I use it to connotatively more than denotatively and, remember, my usage of it was first in the thread. All I meant was simply, "Giant, scary lizards were largely wiped out, but you can still see crocodiles." Using the bird analogy perhaps would have been more apt, but, as a romantic, nothing short of the extinct elephant bird (damn those Polynesians and Captain Cook!) comes close to capturing "dinosaurness" for me. Huge, implacable crocs, on the other hand, do quite nicely. Well, Frank, I hate to say it but you're, well, just wrong.
I mean, "dinosaur" when used "connotatively" is "dinosaur" used *wrongly*, at least nowadays when scientific terminology is percolating through the common vocabulary like this. It's like saying "fish" means "things with fins and tails that swim through the water", thus making marine mammals like dolphins and whales "fish". It's true that there was nothing wrong with using that term back when _Moby Dick_ was written, but these days -- no. It's just wrong. "Dinosaur" as used by biologists has a strict, well-defined meaning, however fuzzily the term may be used by laypeople. So does, for example, "fish" -- ordinary people think of starfish and clams and octopodes and whatnot as "fish", while no biologist would ever use that term for them, even casually, and increasingly educated people are dropping that usage too -- notice how we're starting to call them "sea stars" instead of "starfish" and so on.
Anyway: most people who use Linnaean classification specifically say dinosaurs are *not* reptiles -- the bone structure is different enough from the vast number of other things we call reptiles that they shouldn't be lumped in the same group. The bone structure of a therapod is *much* more like a bird's than like a reptile's, and all the other kinds of dinosaurs at least share that trait of having bird legs rather than reptile legs.
Cladistically, yes, as I said, dinosaurs and birds and mammals are all "reptiles". But birds are a kind of reptile that falls *under* dinosaurs in the cladistic tree, while crocodilians spring off from a parallel branch, as do mammals.
As a side note: Their cultures aren't passed down, or at least not in a separate, recognizable form. Sure. But I think the better analogy to the SM is a hegemonic power like Rome, not a regional one like the Etruscans (as significant a role as they may have played in history). Huge, powerful empires can be demolished and fade in prominence, but nevertheless Rome, the Ottomans, the Caliphate, the Chinese, even short-lived empires like Hitler's, will have continued cultural and ethnological existence until the Earth gets destroyed. Now, I agree with you that in SC2 there are better means of wiping people out, and the Dnyarri might have been more thorough and effective, but who knows? What little we know about them suggests incredible incompetence (indeed, the one Dnyarri we meet is more like a petty, scheming Shylock than an all-powerful Elder of Zion), and given how easily races avoid annihilation in the SC universe, I'm comfortable with the idea that any of the races mentioned as destroyed could still be alive. If told badly, it would, of course, be bad story-telling, but then so is the complete repopulation of the Shofixi by a Jerry Lewis-style Asian stereotype. So, there you go. All right, I guess I can accept that. I'd venture that you can't tell too much about the old Dnyarri race from our one friend, since he's a mutated and surgically altered and generally screwed-up example of the species, and his brain is constantly being bombarded by disruptive radiation from the Taalo Shield, but hey. If an SC3 sequel tells the story of the resurgence of the Drall and does it well, I'll eat my words. I just think it'd be hard to do well -- at least the Shofixti had an established personality you could work from, while resurrecting the Drall would mean working from scratch.
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Deus Siddis
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"Well, for one thing, *you* don't know how time travel works."
I don't think *anybody* does. Theories are one thing, testing and seeing is another. Know anybody who's actually travelled backwards through the/a timeline (the orz don't count )?
"I'm saying that there could only be Brown Ur-Quan if the Taalo had a working Taalo Shield that they could have used to protect the Browns from being mind-controlled long enough so they could take the Browns through whatever thing they used to go into another dimension,"
The one they had worked well enough to bring hundreds of UQ along. Plus, a Dynarri's powers only work at a certain distance. If there were any deep space scout UQ who had not been in range of a Dynarri, they could have joined the fleeing Taalo.
"I'm sorry to get upset again, but you seem to be purposely not paying attention to what I say."
Not on purpose, it's just that these are a lot of little fine points from a game I've not played through in a while and I might be a little tired, at the moment. That, or maybe I'm just not *solid* enough to understand you. 
"This isn't how the game uses "homeworld", or what most people think of when they say it."
There's the Taalo "Homeworld". And as you mentioned, the lander crew calls the Ilwrath planet a "Homeworld", even though they are all supposed to be dead.
"Either the Syreen or the Humans didn't originally evolve on their homeworlds, given how similar they are, but that doesn't make Earth or Syra less of a homeworld."
I bet Earth is the real one, we've got all kinds of hominids up the wazoo.
"I don't think the original trilogy was all that good, but *come on*. I mean... *come on*.)"
I didn't say one was better than the other, just that the prequels had more of a core story to work off of. Episodes 4-6 might have been better executed, but their story was slightly more "yeehah", than dramatic (except for the last part of E6, that was the best and most unexpected climax of scifi). Anyway, you're right, we don't need to talk about a whole other universe.
"Why are you such a friggin' minimalist? Stories are more interesting when they have more details."
Because the details eventually start to get kind of repetitive or confusing. So many irrelevant species going extict and then coming back. Also, unnecessary details and window dressing should be eliminated, to focus better on the heart of the story (something the aforementioned star wars prequels could have done better [kill jar jar for starters]).
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Frank
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This is... not true. The superorder Dinosauria is defined as being separate from other archosaurs, including the crocodilians, because they have upright legs that are set directly under their bodies, while other reptiles, like crocodilians and lizards, have legs that extend outward from their bodies.
This is how dinosaurs are defined by biologists, even if the word is used more loosely colloquially. An ichythysaur is therefore not a dinosaur, and neither is a pterodactyl, and neither is an iguanadon. . . . Â [Dinosaur] specifically was coined for those large, extinct creatures that have reptilian features otherwise but seem to have a more developed, "modern" skeletal structure, with the upright legs. Iguanadons were one of three types of animal -- we'll leave open as to what they were -- offered by Richard Owen as an example of "dinosauria." Â So I don't know what your definition of "coined" is . . . .
Paleontologists who use cladistic taxonomy will say that, properly, birds really are a kind of dinosaur And next say that "birds really are a kind of reptile." Â See, e.g., http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/diapsids/avians.html ("Using proper terminology, birds are avian dinosaurs; other dinosaurs are non-avian dinosaurs, and (strange as it may sound) birds are technically considered reptiles."); http://www.dinosauria.com/dml/diction.htm (definition of "clade") ("An animal is a member of every clade that its ancestors are, thus making a bird a reptile (it is descended from a member of clade Reptilia) . . .").
The problem with the birds-as-dinosaurs meme isn't that it's wrong -- as I said before, you can slap any definition on a group, come up with a meaningful criterion of membership that excludes some and includes what you want -- but that it's not useful for common parlance. Â Here, maybe it makes sense to distinguish the word "dinosauria," i.e., the taxon, from "dinosaur," i.e., the popular noun.
Under the birds-as-dinosaur school, it would be inapt for me to say, "General Foch was a dinosaur who still believed that sufficiently courageous charges could overcome any defenses," or calling a huge, outmoded American car a dinosaur, because "dinosaurs" are in fact adaptible, agile creatures still in existence. Â Not only that, under the birds-as-dinosaur school, the word itself ("awe-inspiring or terrible lizards") becomes meaningless. Â Who is inspired by the turkey, other than Ben Franklin? Â Not to mention the butchery of popular imagery, where dinosaurs are huge, lumbering beasts.
Dinosaurs as birds is a fad in popular culture. Â I am quite confident that thirty years from now, dinosaurs (if they're still taught in school despite ID) will be depicted as T-Rexes and triceratops, with brontosaurs and ichthyosaurs, pterodactyls and, probably, enormous crocodiles. Â The obsession with feathery raptors will have passed. Â I'm not saying that the taxonomy will change (but maybe it will, who knows?).
Finally, I'm all for defining words rather than letting sloppy usage destroy them. Â But in this case, it's not sloppy usage destroying "dinosaur," but modern revisionism. Â It's like people who argue that there's no such thing as "race," because in their biological theory, race doesn't exist. Â Defining race out of existence, defining "reptiles" to include birds and "dinosaurs" to exclude iguanodons, parsing "genocide" finely to exempt every non-white country's act of genocide, all these are fun linguistic games to play, but not particularly useful for the day-in, day-out.
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Frank
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Although I appreciate your efforts to condescend to me -- really! -- I'm not even sure what you mean by: "Umm... the one I learned in fourth grade, and have repeatedly seen in science texts since then, and that is here?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinosaur"
Surely even someone as fantastically educated as you was not learning about phylologies and clades in fourth grade. Given that Wikipedia (font that it is of all dubious knowledge) doesn't render an actual definition of dinosaur, it's not clear what you're pointing to.
Are you pointing to: "Dinosaurs are animals that dominated the terrestrial ecosystem for over 100 million years"?
Or
"The term is a combination of the Greek words deinos ("terrible" or "fearfully great" or "formidable") and sauros ("lizard" or "reptile")."?
Or "[T]his article hereafter uses "dinosaur" as a synonym for "non-avian dinosaur", and "bird" as a synonym for "avian dinosaur"."?
Or "Dinosaurs are archosaurs, like modern crocodilians. These are set apart by having diapsid skulls, having two holes where jaw muscles attach, called temporal fenestrae."
I'm tickled by the conceit that that was the definition you learned in fourth grade; tickled, but unconvinced.
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Deus Siddis
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Oow, it looks like some egos have been horribly maimed. 
Common people, we're talking about an intentionally comical game and dead animals here. No need to get upset.
Anyway, here's my general thoughts:
Art: SC2 is not that dramatic of a game. It is much lighter than the Starflight games (even though it has the same writers), and it is very open (anything could happen).
Frank: "My classification system" is the one that makes the most sense and is the most widely adopted. I don't know what you're talking about, and it doesn't really matter as evolution is not quite that segmented, but the system Art and I use makes a lot of sense if you think about it. Fish had spines, then amphibians could walk on land, reptiles could raise young on land, mammals and dinosaurs had upright bodies powered by warm-blooded metabolisms and birds could fly and walk upright (and were also warm blooded). Also, each goup is/was very diverse and successful.
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« Last Edit: August 29, 2005, 09:50:52 pm by Deus_Siddis »
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Frank
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Hmm. Â You know, I looked back at my original post, and based on what I said, I've been bested in this debate, since I mentioned "genetic inheritance." Â I think -- but may be self-serving here -- that I initially was going to go with the bird example, but then because of my distaste for it, switched to alligators.
That said, crocodilia does serve the original point better than birds, in that crocodilia survived the cataclysm that wiped out the "big reptiles" without going through major adaptations, whereas "avian dinosaurs" pretty much left their forbears in the dust.
I stand by my general arguments about the (lack of) usefulness of the modern classification of dinosaurs, my distaste for the birds-as-dinosaurs meme, and so forth. Â But I can't in good conscience claim that that was my explicit point from the beginning.
That said, the dinosaur comment was a tangent to a larger point about surviving destruction, which point I think still stands. Â It is very, very hard to wipe something out, whether you're a comment and they're the archosaurs, you're Fred Soper and they're mosquitoes, you're Caesar and they're the Gauls, you're Arab/Nazi/Catholic/generally evil European and they're Jews, or, you're Dnyarri and they're a member of the SM.
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Frank
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Clearly I should register so I can just edit posts. Oh well.
Fish had spines, then amphibians could walk on land, reptiles could raise young on land, mammals and dinosaurs had upright bodies powered by warm-blooded metabolisms and birds could fly and walk upright (and were also warm blooded). Well, of course this depends in part on the warm-bloodedness of dinosaurs, a topic still hotly (haha) debated (and, at least last I checked, leaning toward the exothermic school).
But my point is that I'm not sure why this division is any better than talking about reptiles as a species of egg-laying, dry-scaled land animals with either individual teeth or curved (turtle-like) beaks and talking about birds as a species of egg-laying, feathered, flying animals with beaks. Dinosaurs then falls into the reptile category and birds do not.
For my money, that distinction is the better one. There's a reason why dinosaurs were called "terrible lizards" not "terrible birds." It may not be the taxonomically ideal reason, but it is probably is a humanistically solid one. Birds, fish, mammals, reptiles, and insects are distinguishable by their skin as much as anything else (feathers, fish scales, fur, rough scales or tight scales, exoskeletons). If it turns out that dinosaurs were covered by feathers, I might be inclined to think of them as birds.
Of course, scientists ought to use whatever classification system works best for them. While I, like Orwell, prefer pints and gallons and feet and inches to the metric system, I don't think scientists should use the English system. Likewise, I'm quite content with scientists doing whatever crazy things they want with *their language.* So, Pluto is a planet for me and will be so in coversation for at least several more generations, even if the concept of "planet" is not practically useful or logically applicable to Pluto. And birds will be birds, not reptiles. And starfish will be starfish, not sea stars. (Although I don't think that most people think starfish or octopuses are fish, though if pressed to assign them to some category, they might break down and do it.) And race will exist. And gender will exist. And so forth.
To lay out another bias, I'm all for keeping the number of animal kingdoms (if that's the proper term; it's been a long time since high school biology) as low as possible, so putting dinosaurs in equal standing to fish and mammals and reptiles and birds seems like a bad solution to me. (So does saying that the "thumb" is not a finger or that arachnids aren't insects.) Shrug. We all have our biases.
For purposes of communicating clearly in day to day speech, I think it's better not to call birds reptiles or dinosaurs coequal to the other kingdoms. Since last I checked the message board for an old, rather sophomoric game is most amenable to colloquial, not scientific, speech, I don't see why we shouldn't just speak in plain English.
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Deus Siddis
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"To lay out another bias, I'm all for keeping the number of animal kingdoms (if that's the proper term; it's been a long time since high school biology) as low as possible"
I *think* they are called Families, but I'm not sure. Kingdoms the largest categories, of which there are currently six: Archaebacteria, Eubacteria, Protists, Fungi, Plants and Animals.
And yes, there are many ways of breaking down organisms into classes and all are just opinions. But I think it works OK to have six families of verts (or whatever they're called): Fish, Amphibians, Reptiles, Mammals, Dinosaurs, and Birds. At least, that's how I see it.
BTW, why the hell are sponges considered animals? If algae are not plants, and slime molds are not fungus, how come sponges got thrown into our kingdom?
"Since last I checked the message board for an old, rather sophomoric game is most amenable to colloquial, not scientific, speech, I don't see why we shouldn't just speak in plain English."
There are a number of games that use (sometimes dumb) humor and they still have an interesting story. But Starcontrol is mostly humor, I'll give you that.
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« Last Edit: August 29, 2005, 11:45:50 pm by Deus_Siddis »
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