Author
|
Topic: Kohr-Ah Ur-Quan Homeworld? (Read 71437 times)
|
Deus Siddis
Enlightened
 Offline
Gender: 
Posts: 1387
|
"I submit that it's very likely the Browns were genocided."
Very rarely does any species truly get destroyed in the SC universe, it seems. More often they resurface, like the mael-num, taalo or androsynth.
"In any case, I can't quote dialogue, but every mention of the Greens and Blacks says the Ur-Quan were forever "divided" into those two castes"
I don't know if the browns would be considered a caste. The greens and blacks on the otherhand, were specialized for separate purposes in the the dynarri empire.
"It's such a huge omission to not mention the Browns if they're still around that I can't believe that, if they do exist, there are very many or that many are aware of them."
The UQ didn't mention that the Mael-num or Taalo were still alive, but they are.
"Even when they keep something secret from you they *tell* you they're keeping it secret from you -- they don't engage in deception."
Only if you ask them about it, do they tell you that it is not for you to know.
"Why would they leave Browns to live in peace?"
The B&G UQ hate their forced alterations. To them, it is a bad momento of their enslavement by the dynarri. They might consider the browns to be a sacred piece of pure UQ heritage.
"It just breaks the game's thematic consistency to imagine a homeworld full of happy, peaceful Browns living like any other species."
I don't know that the UQ were ever "happy" or "peaceful".
"If there are Browns they're few, they're hidden, and they're extremely special, and their existence must play a huge and convoluted role in the Kzer-Za/Kohr-Ah rivalry."
That sounds like a possibilty, as well.
"That is the *only* way I would accept Browns being written in a piece of fanfic."
I'm not talking about fan fiction. I'm only really concerned with the plot of the true SC3, that never got made.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Art
Frungy champion
Offline
Posts: 80
|
"I submit that it's very likely the Browns were genocided."
Very rarely does any species truly get destroyed in the SC universe, it seems. More often they resurface, like the mael-num, taalo or androsynth.
The Androsynth resurfaced? News to me.
The Androsynth weren't thought *destroyed* in the Exodus, if that's what you mean. It was pretty obvious to the Humans that they'd fled using some kind of advanced technology to go somewhere else. Sure enough, somewhere else was where they were.
Now the Androsynth are all gone and there are only Orz.
And do you seriously mean that no species truly get destroyed? The Zebranky weren't all killed by the Zoq-Fot-Pik? The Algolites didn't die in a stupid accident caused by the Spathi? And the Melnorme and the Dramya -- you don't see many Dramya around these days, do you?
Let's not forget ALL THE RACES IN THE SENTIENT MILIEU. These were major races that ruled areas far exceeding the starmap in SC2. Most of them are *dead*. The Yuptar, the Yuli, the Drall, the Fahz (okay, the Fahz weren't destroyed, they were slave-shielded, and they *may* be the ancestors of the Utwig -- but there you go, the only species that might still be around is the one not explicitly stated to have been killed.)
The Mael-Num were *never thought to have been destroyed*. The Kzer-Za and Kohr-Ah *tried to kill them and they ESCAPED*. The Ur-Quan are upset because they were never able to find them again.
The *only* species on your list that was actually thought to have been killed and might still be alive is the Taalo, and the nature of their survival is questionable.
Which is good, because if SC2 really did openly claim and confirm that a species had been killed but then brought them back, it'd be guilty of horrible storytelling. When you tell a good story, you don't jerk the reader around all the time by seeming to make it absolutely clear that someone is dead and then suddenly bringing them back with an after-the-fact explanation. It's why superhero comics are so annoying -- the fact that deaths mean nothing because the writers are too attached to the main characters to let them be dead, so increasingly bizarre explanations for resurrection get built into the plot.
One thing I liked about SC2 was how, if you dawdle, you really can watch whole civilizations get wiped out by the Kohr-Ah, never to return.
"In any case, I can't quote dialogue, but every mention of the Greens and Blacks says the Ur-Quan were forever "divided" into those two castes"
I don't know if the browns would be considered a caste. The greens and blacks on the otherhand, were specialized for separate purposes in the the dynarri empire.
Yes, exactly. They said they "divided" or "converted" the Ur-Quan into the two castes, not that they took the castes out of the regular population and left the regular population alone.
All the quotes seem to indicate that the Ur-Quan were *transformed* into Kzer-Za and Kohr-Ah, not that Kzer-Za and Kohr-Ah are two species taken *out* of the Ur-Quan with the regular Ur-Quan left alone. It says that all the Ur-Quan were used for was doing the Dnyarri's will, and that the Kzer-Za did all intellectual tasks and Kohr-Ah did manual tasks. It doesn't leave much room for the Brown Ur-Quan to even exist, does it?
Why would the Dnyarri give two shakes of a withered tentacle about the original Brown Ur-Quan species? Why would they allow most of the species to remain less useful to them than their tailor-made Greens and Blacks, rather than allowing Greens and Blacks to simply *replace* them all, by letting the Browns die or killing them or genetically modifying all of them?
Remember the Slave Empire ruled the *whole galaxy* and the Dnyarri had *absolute control* over the bodies of their slaves and *no regard at all* for the slaves' comfort, welfare or dignity. So arguments that replacing a whole species would be impractical don't hold much water for me -- it'd be downright easy if you could effortlessly force everyone on a planet to do exactly what you want all the time, which is how the Dnyarri operated.
The UQ didn't mention that the Mael-num or Taalo were still alive, but they are.
The Ur-Quan aren't lying about the Taalo. They genuinely don't know. Same with the Mael-Num (and the Ur-Quan don't even think the Mael-Num are dead -- they know the Mael-Num escaped and that's it).
AS I SAID BEFORE, I think that if the Browns still exist they're in small numbers and somehow hidden so that the Ur-Quan DON'T KNOW ABOUT IT. My contention is that it'd be a hell of a lot harder for the Browns to hide somewhere where the Kzer-Za and Kohr-Ah couldn't find them than for the Taalo or even the Melnorme -- the Taalo have wacky superpowerful dimensional technology, and the Melnorme had a whole intact civilization that apparently went nomadic way on the other side of the galaxy. The Browns, if they existed, would have been PART OF the Kzer-Za and Kohr-Ah civilizations (they didn't split until *after* the Doctrinal Conflict, remember?) and I fail to see how they could have escaped without being seen. Or, if they're still there, how they can still be there and not be and important and often-mentioned part of the Ur-Quan conflict. I mean, surely the Kzer-Za and Kohr-Ah wouldn't just leave them alone.
The only scenario I really like is some random coincidence allowing a lone Brown Ur-Quan scout who'd flown to the farthest reaches of the galaxy set up some tiny colony somewhere. But I don't even like that very much -- if it says ther Ur-Quan are *now divided into* the Kzer-Za and Kohr-Ah, then I prefer to think that the Ur-Quan really are all divided into the Kzer-Za and Kohr-Ah. Putting every damn species that's ever been mentioned in the game into the game is stupid and destroys the sense of loss you have at hearing how the Ur-Quan were modified -- it *should* be something irreversible and permanently written into their existence as a result of the Dnyarri's predations. It'd be as bad as undoing the Slave Empire's slaughters by figuring out a way for the Yuli and the Drall to not be extinct anymore.
"Why would they leave Browns to live in peace?"
The B&G UQ hate their forced alterations. To them, it is a bad momento of their enslavement by the dynarri. They might consider the browns to be a sacred piece of pure UQ heritage.
Yes, but this is fanfiction. I don't see that much evidence of it in the game.
There's a real sense of loss at how they've been changed by the Dnyarri, but there's also a sense of competition between two alternative ways of being. If they really felt that way about the Browns why wouldn't they let the Browns be the rulers of their society, as the genetically pure Ur-Quan? Aren't they always harping about how the Ur-Quan are basically superior to all other species and anything non-Ur-Quan is bad?
The Kzer-Za *do* brag about how they're smarter and more sophisticated than the Kohr-Ah. And the Kohr-Ah call the Kzer-Za "effete bureaucrats" and talk about how they're the "Effectuators, the doers". It sounds to me like they are proud of who they are, at least right now, and that they think the way they are is the way all Ur-Quan should be.
In other words, if there were Browns I don't see either subspecies allowing them to exist without forcibly integrating them into their own Path of Now and Forever.
"It just breaks the game's thematic consistency to imagine a homeworld full of happy, peaceful Browns living like any other species."
I don't know that the UQ were ever "happy" or "peaceful".
A petty state of constant war would be even worse. The Ur-Quan, in case you didn't notice, are not that proud of their history -- they talk about how they "earned" their way out of the hellish existence of constantly killing each other to compete for territory and power.
"If there are Browns they're few, they're hidden, and they're extremely special, and their existence must play a huge and convoluted role in the Kzer-Za/Kohr-Ah rivalry."
That sounds like a possibilty, as well.
"That is the *only* way I would accept Browns being written in a piece of fanfic."
I'm not talking about fan fiction. I'm only really concerned with the plot of the true SC3, that never got made.
I really doubt very much that TFB would do something as corny as bring back the ancient Ur-Quan original species just for the cool factor of having them around. It's what I dislike about fanfiction -- SC2 fanfiction would also want to make there be surviving Androsynth, and discover a living enclave of Yuptar, and find a way to reprogram the Mycon to be friendly, and discover a living Precursor in the body of an Ortog, and God knows what else. (Yes, I regard SC3 as fanfiction.)
I don't see any good plot reason to bring the Brown Ur-Quan back. Major tragedies like that should not be undoable. It was very gutsy of TFB to do something like kill off all the Androsynth in SC2, and I'd prefer SC3 to take the same kinds of risks.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Deus Siddis
Enlightened
Offline
Gender:
Posts: 1387
|
"The Androsynth resurfaced? News to me."
I don't remember where, but somebody said that they'd heard from PR3 that androsynth were going to be in SC3.
"And do you seriously mean that no species truly get destroyed? The Zebranky weren't all killed by the Zoq-Fot-Pik? The Algolites didn't die in a stupid accident caused by the Spathi?"
I sort of meant space flight species (like ones you could encounter/fight). Non-sentients and planet lovers don't really count for much beyond backstories.
"The Yuptar, the Yuli, the Drall, the Fahz (okay, the Fahz weren't destroyed, they were slave-shielded, and they *may* be the ancestors of the Utwig -- but there you go, the only species that might still be around is the one not explicitly stated to have been killed.)"
I betcha' the "arilou" were one of those sentient milieu races, only under a different name at that time.
"The *only* species on your list that was actually thought to have been killed and might still be alive is the Taalo, and the nature of their survival is questionable."
I bet there's some brown UQ with the Taalo (that, or the Taalo know where to find some.)
"One thing I liked about SC2 was how, if you dawdle, you really can watch whole civilizations get wiped out by the Kohr-Ah, never to return."
Yea, but that's because you failed.
"Why would the Dnyarri give two shakes of a withered tentacle about the original Brown Ur-Quan species?"
The dynarri look like pillows, they've gotta have a soft side. 
Anyway, I'm sure there were plenty of UQ scouts around the rimm of the galaxy when the dynarri hit the fan. But you're right, the dynarri probably did not leave any browns left, within their empire.
"It doesn't leave much room for the Brown Ur-Quan to even exist, does it?"
Not in this area of space, but perhaps on the fringes or in another dimension. Plus, the orz say time is not linear or something similar, so maybe they still exist in another time for you to visit, (as seen in SF2).
"Yes, but this is fanfiction. I don't see that much evidence of it in the game."
Fanfiction for now, but it might not be if TFB makes another sequel.
"I don't see any good plot reason to bring the Brown Ur-Quan back."
I don't think they would have been mentioned in SC2, if they didn't have some future purpose. Perhaps the two defeated UQ species will merge back into browns, in order to make a united threat against the alliance/orz.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Moronic Maria :D
Zebranky food
Offline
Gender: 
Posts: 31
Hi sup
|
Wow, Art, you sound pretty pissed. I highly suggest you take a chill pill and maybe lay off the highly theorized thoughts about the SC universe for a while, no offense.
Firstly, I find this statement of yours confusing:
The Androsynth resurfaced? News to me.
The Androsynth weren't thought *destroyed* in the Exodus, if that's what you mean. It was pretty obvious to the Humans that they'd fled using some kind of advanced technology to go somewhere else. Sure enough, somewhere else was where they were.
Now the Androsynth are all gone and there are only Orz.
and later, at the last part of your post:
Major tragedies like that should not be undoable. It was very gutsy of TFB to do something like kill off all the Androsynth in SC2, and I'd prefer SC3 to take the same kinds of risks.
I’m not sure whether or not I’m misinterpreting, or you’ve accidentally contradicted yourself, but to explicitly say something, the Androsynth (with the whole Arilou/Andro/Orz fiasco as fragile enough as it is) race in this case, was completely killed off as if it was fact written in stone? I always figured they were simply “taken” or absorbed by the Orz. I think TFB tried their best to shift away from the fact that they where either killed or just “destroyed”. No, I don’t think there any surviving Androsynth left in the home dimension, or “heavy space”, hence the much quoted Arilou (“There are no more Androsynth now, only Orz”), but I think it was beyond their intentions to kill off the race as a whole. Even the Melnorme don’t know about their true whereabouts. Unless I’ve misunderstood you, which, of course, would make my entire argument pointless.
I don't remember where, but somebody said that they'd heard from PR3 that androsynth were going to be in SC3
I believe there was a quote from Fred Ford / Paul Reiche (?) in the creators chat about it, but it doesn’t explicitly say that they’d make them come back, just that it would be a possible part of the story:
<LordR-man> Fwiffo- What really happened to the Androsynth in sc2?
<Fwiffo> In regards to the Androsynth: They were snagged by the entity who/which projected its fingers into our dimension (which looked to us as the Orz.) http://www.classicgaming.com/starcontrol/history/files/scchatlog.txt
<_Stilgar> <ORZ> Q:What was your ideas for the hypothetical Sequal?
<Fwiffo> We never had to settle on an idea, because we never got that close. But we were thinking about those missing Androsynth. www.classicgaming.com/starcontrol/history/files/scchatlog.txt
I will, however, wholeheartedly agree with you on the rest of the races they were explicitly killed off or already destroyed. I don’t want to see an Agolite family suddenly pop out of a Spathi’s anus and say they’ve been living in there for the past 300 years for mere survival. I don’t want to see a lone Zebranky suddenly pop out of nowhere piloting a deadly shuttle and claiming he learned how to fly by watching the Zot-Fot-Pik build spaceships while he was peeking out of a crack while hiding in a closet. I wouldn’t say the Dramya would be completely wiped out, but the Melnorme certainly kicked their sorry asses into oblivion during sometime in the past. And, well, I’m certainly not going against what you said about the Sentient Milieu being dead.
Which is good, because if SC2 really did openly claim and confirm that a species had been killed but then brought them back, it'd be guilty of horrible storytelling. When you tell a good story, you don't jerk the reader around all the time by seeming to make it absolutely clear that someone is dead and then suddenly bringing them back with an after-the-fact explanation.
Which is exactly why we don’t know about certain races (Taalo OR Androsynth) and if they’re actually DEAD as a doornail.
I’m not going to bother with the brown Ur-Quan argument, seeing how I’m in agreement with the fact that it’s just not logical, considering how both races are incredibly full of themselves and I can’t see them going back to being one specie without major conflict.
I don’t particularly like fanfiction either, with the whole corny and overdone “surviving race outpost” that most seem to aim for, so I’d agree with you there too.
That’s all I really half to say, thank god. Consider it shitty or stupid, since I'm shitty and stupid.
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: August 28, 2005, 10:45:33 pm by Moronic Maria :D »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Art
Frungy champion
Offline
Posts: 80
|
Thanks for backing me up, Maria. Sorry for being pissy -- I've been stressed out with various RL things recently.
"The Androsynth resurfaced? News to me."
I don't remember where, but somebody said that they'd heard from PR3 that androsynth were going to be in SC3.
PR3 said that they were definitely thinking about the Androsynth and their role. I thought they meant they'd go into greater detail about how the Androsynth were "taken". But, sure, there might be the possibility of the reversal of what happened to them with the Orz -- however, I do remember that question batting aside the "surviving racial outpost" as a possibility.
In any case I doubt that SC3 had ever been plotted or planned to any significant degree by TFB. SC2 was created rather haphazardly and on-the-fly, after all.
"And do you seriously mean that no species truly get destroyed? The Zebranky weren't all killed by the Zoq-Fot-Pik? The Algolites didn't die in a stupid accident caused by the Spathi?"
I sort of meant space flight species (like ones you could encounter/fight). Non-sentients and planet lovers don't really count for much beyond backstories.
I know what you're saying, and it makes sense for game purposes that no species you encounter *in the game* will be unavoidably destroyed in the game. Even so. TFB clearly wanted to make that a possibility and to avoid waffling around with the idea that species that die off will obviously be reinstated. I would think, for example, that they really did intend the Ilwrath and Thraddash to all be dead after SC2, or at least the Thraddash.
Anyway, the Brown Ur-Quan *aren't* a species you meet in the game. They're a long-ago ancient legend.
"The Yuptar, the Yuli, the Drall, the Fahz (okay, the Fahz weren't destroyed, they were slave-shielded, and they *may* be the ancestors of the Utwig -- but there you go, the only species that might still be around is the one not explicitly stated to have been killed.)"
I betcha' the "arilou" were one of those sentient milieu races, only under a different name at that time.
Blah. I don't like this kind of plotting, though maybe TFB aren't as averse to it.
In real life new entities and factions arise and old ones disappear forever. Everything is not something else. Some things end, and some entirely new things begin. It does not make a story better or more cool to tie everything up in knots that way. (Another thing I dislike about fanfiction.)
"The *only* species on your list that was actually thought to have been killed and might still be alive is the Taalo, and the nature of their survival is questionable."
I bet there's some brown UQ with the Taalo (that, or the Taalo know where to find some.)
Hard to see how. All Brown Ur-Quan were controlled by the Dnyarri, and were programmed to attack and try to kill the Taalo on sight.
I guess you could do a plot revolving around the Taalo coming back with Brown Ur-Quan to show the Kzer-Za and Kohr-Ah the error of their ways. Maybe the Taalo Shield you found isn't the only one -- maybe they had another prototype and used it to rescue some Browns. It could be interesting.
"One thing I liked about SC2 was how, if you dawdle, you really can watch whole civilizations get wiped out by the Kohr-Ah, never to return."
Yea, but that's because you failed.
*shrug* It's still part of the game, and you can still win with every species destroyed except Humans. I don't consider myself a failure for getting the Ilwrath and Thraddash to genocide each other.
"Why would the Dnyarri give two shakes of a withered tentacle about the original Brown Ur-Quan species?" The dynarri look like pillows, they've gotta have a soft side.
Ha. "I'm bored, Captain. Kindly send two of your crewmen to come entertain me, preferably one male and one female."
"It doesn't leave much room for the Brown Ur-Quan to even exist, does it?"
Not in this area of space, but perhaps on the fringes or in another dimension. Plus, the orz say time is not linear or something similar, so maybe they still exist in another time for you to visit, (as seen in SF2).
All of these are acceptable, I guess. But that means no homeworld for the Brown Ur-Quan in TrueSpace, and not much contact between them and the rest of the galaxy, and that if they're introduced there has to be a big convoluted plot around them.
"Yes, but this is fanfiction. I don't see that much evidence of it in the game."
Fanfiction for now, but it might not be if TFB makes another sequel.
Well, it's up to them.
"I don't see any good plot reason to bring the Brown Ur-Quan back."
I don't think they would have been mentioned in SC2, if they didn't have some future purpose. Perhaps the two defeated UQ species will merge back into browns, in order to make a united threat against the alliance/orz.
I *like* that things can be mentioned without having a future purpose. They're part of the Ur-Quan's story -- they're necessary because they explain how the Kzer-Za and Kohr-Ah got to be so different and got to be mortal enemies while still being "brothers". They're a symbol of the past they've lost. They don't need to be anything more than that.
It's for the same reason I don't want Milieu races coming back, or Chmmr turning back into Chenjesu and Mmrnmhrrm.
Also, the "fusing together again" -- it's not like the Brown Ur-Quan had Green-ness and BLack-ness programmed into them and you can somehow metaphysically snap the DNA into two pieces and put them back together. SC3 did this a *lot*, and it was annoying. (The VUX and the Vyro-Ingo being two "halves" of a species, ugh. It's the kind of thing I let SC2 get away with once without getting annoyed, with the Chmmr, and only then because it was kind of unexpected.)
I don't see either Ur-Quan species undoing their transformations -- surely, since they possess all the technological relics of the Dnyarri, including the ability to gengineer Dnyarri into Talking Pets, they have the *capability* to gengineer themselves. I think they choose not to, because they both regard their special abilities as Kzer-Za or Kohr-Ah as a badge of pride.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Frank
Guest
|
Although I by-and-large agree with Art, and always enjoy reading his articulate, thoughtful posts (even while worrying that any expends so much thought on such an old and fallow game), I do disagree with a couple points.
In real life new entities and factions arise and old ones disappear forever.
The more I read history, the less true tihs truism seems. By "entities" I assume you do not mean "beings," but rather "political entities." If you mean beings, then, sure, certain species have become extinct, although anyone who thinks that the dinosaurs "disappeared forever" doesn't fully grasp the process of genetic inheritance. Err, or can just check out an alligator.
Assuming you mean political entities, my disgreement becomes even stronger. First, I concede that many relatively obscure cultures have been wiped out entirely and "disappear forever." Second, I concede that a few relatively major cultures (I'm thinking like the Myceneans, the Toltecs, the "Sea Peoples" and so forth) have also vanished.
But for every one ancient entity that vanished altogether, there are many that, although they were destroyed, reemerged in some new form. Obviously, Rome and Ancient Greece provide the best examples. With the latter, it's hard to identify a genetic heritage -- the modern Greeks really are nothing of the ancient Greeks -- but the cultural heritage is stark and obvious.
The Egyptians left behind monuments, those monuments shape contemporary Egyptian self-understanding, even though the Egyptians who built them are almost totally different racially from the ones who guide tours there today. The Aztecs were wiped out, but Aztec blood runs still in Mexico and Indian-pride fuels Marxist rebellions in Chiapas.
France has been reconstituted six dozen times since Caesar genocided the Gauls, but nevertheless the heritage of Napoleon, Louis XIV, Charles Martel, and so forth still infuses daily culture.
When Franco went to execute ETA terrorists in the 1970s, and the Dutch raised a human rights protest, Spaniards counter-protested with signs reading, "The Duke of Alba didn't kill enough." Alba's butchery took place hundreds of years earlier. The Hapsburgs lost their crown, the monarchy lost its control, the Low Countries changed hands a dozen times, and still a legacy persisted.
The Jews were slaughtered and scattered by the Chaldeans, stripped of their cultural identity and of their leadership. Then they were slaughtered and dominated by the Romans. Then they were scattered in a diaspora. Then they were purged by an Inquisition. Then they were massacred in pogroms. Then in the Holocaust. But they still hold on to their Biblical homeland and persist.
If it has been so hard to wipe out the Jews -- despite the best work of Babylonians, Romans, Christians, Nazis, and Arabs -- if, despite the genocide of the Aztecs, the plagues of smallpox and other European diseases, the forcible conversions, the slavery, the colonization, you still have Indian rebellions in Mexico, is it really so implausible that somewhere in the vastness of the galaxy there could still be Taalo, brown Ur-Quan, or anyone else?
As much as SC2 is about races being wiped out, it is about races implausibly escaping extermination / permanent removal -- the Kohr-Ah, the Mael-Num, the Faz (maybe), the Taalo, the Syreens, hell, the Chenjesu and the Mrrnhrmm, the humans (with Unzervault), the Zoq-Fot-Pik (first the zebranky, then the Kohr-Ah), the Shofixi, the Spathi, etc., etc. All of them were either spared at the last moment, escaped annihilation, escaped seemingly permanent imprisonment, had some lost survivor somewhere, etc. That seems more to be the game's theme than utter annihilation, even though the threat of utter annihilation is the story's driving force.
Shrug.
FWIW, I agree with this:
I *like* that things can be mentioned without having a future purpose.
The idea that the world (defined however broadly or narrowly as one wants) extends beyond the confines of the story being told is part of what defines good fantasy / science fiction. When every loose end is tied up, it makes the world seem small and contrived, existing only for the story that was told and nothing else.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
Art
Frungy champion
Offline
Posts: 80
|
Although I by-and-large agree with Art, and always enjoy reading his articulate, thoughtful posts (even while worrying that any expends so much thought on such an old and fallow game), I do disagree with a couple points. In real life new entities and factions arise and old ones disappear forever. The more I read history, the less true tihs truism seems. By "entities" I assume you do not mean "beings," but rather "political entities." If you mean beings, then, sure, certain species have become extinct, although anyone who thinks that the dinosaurs "disappeared forever" doesn't fully grasp the process of genetic inheritance. Err, or can just check out an alligator.
I concede that you're right in terms of things leaving traces of themselves behind, although the SC2 universe is more brutal than life on Earth in this respect (there are bigger weapons and bigger ways things get blown up and burned up and so on).
Although on this particular point, you'd be better off looking at a chicken than an alligator. Crocodilians already existed quite separately from dinosaurs during the reign of dinosaurs -- dinosaurs' most direct descendants are birds.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
Frank
Guest
|
Although on this particular point, you'd be better off looking at a chicken than an alligator. Crocodilians already existed quite separately from dinosaurs during the reign of dinosaurs -- dinosaurs' most direct descendants are birds.
Right, the alligator line was more than slightly tongue-in-cheek, although partly also motivated by what I see as the tedious "dinosaurs as birds" meme that's been running around since the late 90's.
[T]he SC2 universe is more brutal than life on Earth . . . .
Sure, but it's also a lot bigger and there are a lot of technologies that make survival a lot a easier (such as self-sustaining deep space craft).
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
Deus Siddis
Enlightened
Offline
Gender:
Posts: 1387
|
"Wow, Art, you sound pretty pissed. I highly suggest you take a chill pill and maybe lay off the highly theorized thoughts about the SC universe for a while, no offense."
He's entitled to his opinion. I don't think anybody will be offended because their favorite pretend SC3 plot predictions got shot down.
"I don’t particularly like fanfiction either, with the whole corny and overdone “surviving race outpost” that most seem to aim for, so I’d agree with you there too."
Yea, but that's why it's fanfiction. Only the original writer(s) can add true sequels to stories.
"PR3 said that they were definitely thinking about the Androsynth and their role."
If it were my choice, I'd give the synth the axe. I always thought they sucked.
"I would think, for example, that they really did intend the Ilwrath and Thraddash to all be dead after SC2"
You can't kill the ilwrath, they were a long standing part of the SC universe. Nobody could ever be more evil.
"Blah. I don't like this kind of plotting, though maybe TFB aren't as averse to it."
Think about it, if the arilou are such an old race, how could they not have been a part of it. Their so secretive, it is a very good possibilty. After all, their name is not really "arilou" (perhaps it is really drall, yupti, etc.)
"All Brown Ur-Quan were controlled by the Dnyarri, and were programmed to attack and try to kill the Taalo on sight."
Unless, they get in range of a taalo shield.
"I don't consider myself a failure for getting the Ilwrath and Thraddash to genocide each other."
Who killed the Ilwrath? Did they somehow put everyone of themselves on ships that only carry about 20 critters, and destroy themselves on the thraddash? There had to be some survivors on one side or the other.
"But that means no homeworld for the Brown Ur-Quan in TrueSpace"
I'm sure their homeworld is still there. It is just vacant like the taalo one. It never says anywhere that their homeworld gets torched, does it?
"Well, it's up to them."
Indeed, let's just hope the make another one.
"I *like* that things can be mentioned without having a future purpose."
It just seems cheesy to me that there were just green UQ in SC1. Then all of sudden there's a bunch of crazy history out of nowhere, that has no bearing on the future or present (besides the KA rampage).
"It's for the same reason I don't want Milieu races coming back, or Chmmr turning back into Chenjesu and Mmrnmhrrm."
It would be ridiculous that EVERY Chenjesu got cyborged. And what would be the point, anyhow. Plus, no sequel is complete without the godly broodhome.
"Also, the "fusing together again" -- it's not like the Brown Ur-Quan had Green-ness and BLack-ness programmed into them and you can somehow metaphysically snap the DNA into two pieces and put them back together."
I'm sure they would not all fuse. There would always be some diehards.
"I think they choose not to, because they both regard their special abilities as Kzer-Za or Kohr-Ah as a badge of pride."
Or maybe they just don't have the genetic material samples that are necessary.
"it's hard to identify a genetic heritage -- the modern Greeks really are nothing of the ancient Greeks -- but the cultural heritage is stark and obvious. The Egyptians left behind monuments, those monuments shape contemporary Egyptian self-understanding, even though the Egyptians who built them are almost totally different racially from the ones who guide tours there today."
I find it hard to believe that those entire peoples got completely destroyed. If so, who would have been left to pass down their cultures?
"France has been reconstituted six dozen times since Caesar genocided the Gauls"
I don't think the Gauls were completely torched. But their culture was destroyed and now they speak french. So there were changes, but it is not every day that an ENTIRE group gets completely composted, despite our species' frequent conflicts.
"As much as SC2 is about races being wiped out, it is about races implausibly escaping extermination / permanent removal."
Indeed, things happen in big strokes, in both directions in SC2.
"Crocodilians already existed quite separately from dinosaurs during the reign of dinosaurs -- dinosaurs' most direct descendants are birds."
Maybe that's because Crocodilians are *relatives* of dinosaurs, not *descendents*. 
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Moronic Maria :D
Zebranky food
Offline
Gender:
Posts: 31
Hi sup
|
Thanks for backing me up, Maria. Sorry for being pissy -- I've been stressed out with various RL things recently.
No problem, same thing happens to me, and pretty much everyone else.
He's entitled to his opinion. I don't think anybody will be offended because their favorite pretend SC3 plot predictions got shot down.
Yea, but that's why it's fanfiction. Only the original writer(s) can add true sequels to stories.
Agreed, I don’t have anything to say in conflict with this. Or something. I tend to get wound up in certain things. Meh.
If it were my choice, I'd give the synth the axe. I always thought they sucked.
D’aww, you don’t like the ‘Synth? I always thought their guardian ships and bizarre Ace Ventura hairdos were oddly unique in their own way.
You can't kill the ilwrath, they were a long standing part of the SC universe. Nobody could ever be more evil.
I liked the Ilwrath too, and I don’t think they would be completely wiped out; severely weakened, yes. Same might apply to the Thraddash. Granted, some people chose for each race to make mass genocide towards each other, some people didn’t. So just to play it safe, I think it would be in best intentions to keep both races around for the sequel.
I’d like to thank Frank for the insight on the lost and/or surviving peoples, it makes for an very interesting read. I don't really have anything to add to it, being honest.
The idea that the world (defined however broadly or narrowly as one wants) extends beyond the confines of the story being told is part of what defines good fantasy / science fiction. When every loose end is tied up, it makes the world seem small and contrived, existing only for the story that was told and nothing else.
Here here, I couldn’t agree more. There wouldn’t be anything left for us to talk about if that were the case.
Peace
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: August 29, 2005, 08:11:11 am by Moronic Maria :D »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Art
Frungy champion
Offline
Posts: 80
|
You can't kill the ilwrath, they were a long standing part of the SC universe. Nobody could ever be more evil.
Also self-destructive and almost suicidal in their veneration of pain and suffering. Which, for plot reasons, is why I prefer to think they're dead.
"Blah. I don't like this kind of plotting, though maybe TFB aren't as averse to it."
Think about it, if the arilou are such an old race, how could they not have been a part of it. Their so secretive, it is a very good possibilty. After all, their name is not really "arilou" (perhaps it is really drall, yupti, etc.)
The Sentient Milieu encompassed the galaxy *in TrueSpace*. The Arilou are not *from TrueSpace*, or at least haven't been since some undefined very long time ago. They could easily pre-date even the Milieu, or come from some other galaxy altogether, or whatnot -- the fact that they moved their home planet to another dimension should tell you they're pretty beyond the tech-level of even the Milieu. (The Ur-Quan have technology from the height of the Milieu -- no clue about QuasiSpace. Melnorme know nothing about it. If the Taalo had such a power, they didn't develop it quickly enough or powerfully enough to save most of their race. Etc.)
Anyway -- the Ur-Quan are pretty clear on having killed the Yuli, Drall and Yuptar. It's pretty deeply ingrained in their memories -- it's one of the major horrible traumas that made them become what they are today. I'm not going to question their history on this one.
And the Ur-Quan have *seen* the Arilou. They wrote up a little file on them for the First War, remember? No way they wouldn't have gotten the connection if the Arilou were anything like the Yuli, Drall or Yuptar.
Besides which, I don't peg the Arilou as being Sentient Milieu old. That's disappointing -- they should be far, far older and more powerful than the Ur-Quan civilization. Somewhere around the age of the Precursors or maybe a little younger.
(Besides which, I have my own pet theory -- a bit weak, and a bit derivative, but that I like a lot -- that the Arilou are Humans from the future. It'd explain the weird attitude they have toward Humans now.)
"All Brown Ur-Quan were controlled by the Dnyarri, and were programmed to attack and try to kill the Taalo on sight."
Unless, they get in range of a taalo shield.
Yeah, I mentioned this. Officially the Taalo only finished one Shield, the one you have, and it didn't work perfectly.
The Ur-Quan could be wrong about this, sure, but the memories they have come from being the ones who actually invaded the world and killed all the Taalo, so.
"I don't consider myself a failure for getting the Ilwrath and Thraddash to genocide each other."
Who killed the Ilwrath? Did they somehow put everyone of themselves on ships that only carry about 20 critters, and destroy themselves on the thraddash? There had to be some survivors on one side or the other.
The war didn't consist solely of space battles. This is clear from the fact that both homeworlds are *blown out and destroyed*. The landers you send there *tell* you that there's nothing alive on the surface. Homeworlds being killed off is a pretty big deal.
We know that the Thraddash's ships might not have been the most powerful but that they were known to build and stockpile huge numbers of nuclear weapons for blowing up cities with. The Ilwrath may have had similar. And both races were *exactly* the type to consider it a holy duty to get their entire populations involved in the war as much as possible.
I dunno, I find being utterly destroyed in war a fitting fate for both species. Well, especially the Thraddash -- you *knew* their Culture cycle was going to lead to their total demise pretty soon.
I wouldn't be super-upset to see a sequel with one or the other species surviving, but only with a good explanation for why they were kept out of the war -- my expectation would be for the Thraddash to have bombed the Ilwrath and the Ilwrath to have large-scale kidnapped and captured Thraddash until everyone was dead.
"But that means no homeworld for the Brown Ur-Quan in TrueSpace"
I'm sure their homeworld is still there. It is just vacant like the taalo one. It never says anywhere that their homeworld gets torched, does it?
Even torched homeworlds are still there. Didn't you ever go to *visit* the Ilwrath and Thraddash homeworlds after they all died? Or visited another homeworld after the death march starts? Their surfaces get burned up but nothing ever blows up Death-Star-style.
They just don't count as homeworlds once no one's home anymore.
"Well, it's up to them."
Indeed, let's just hope the make another one.
Though even if they make it us whiny fans don't have to like it. George Lucas himself was responsible for the Star Wars prequels, after all.
"I *like* that things can be mentioned without having a future purpose."
It just seems cheesy to me that there were just green UQ in SC1. Then all of sudden there's a bunch of crazy history out of nowhere, that has no bearing on the future or present (besides the KA rampage).
Cheesy? I liked it. It's backstory, it's explanation. It means the Kzer-Za do what they do for a reason rather than just being jerks. I *like* that kind of thing -- things that make these species into peoples with histories rather than factions with a role to play in one particular war.
"It's for the same reason I don't want Milieu races coming back, or Chmmr turning back into Chenjesu and Mmrnmhrrm."
It would be ridiculous that EVERY Chenjesu got cyborged. And what would be the point, anyhow. Plus, no sequel is complete without the godly broodhome.
Actually I buy this being a full-species process too, for different reasons. I question how individual life-forms that grow as big crystals inside a huge soup can really be -- stuff like the Broodhome seems to imply that they can link up and act as a single colony and such.
Anyway, the impression I get of the Process was that it was a planetwide process -- again, just as with the KZ and KA, all the language they use about it is as though it were a massive, whole-species-changing shift. The fact that you *only* talk to Chenjesu being Processed through the slave shield -- that the Process' rate is completely determined by the sunlight reaching the surface -- I dunno.
Again, I'd be disappointed to have something huge and momentous like this be undone, or half-undone. It's a big deal that the Chenjesu and Mmrnmhrrm made this huge step to join together -- it sabotages the whole thing and cheapens it to have the other races still be around.
And, look, if it were based on ships I'd never want to see the Guardian go. But there's no harm in keeping 'em for melee only.
"Also, the "fusing together again" -- it's not like the Brown Ur-Quan had Green-ness and BLack-ness programmed into them and you can somehow metaphysically snap the DNA into two pieces and put them back together."
I'm sure they would not all fuse. There would always be some diehards.
Reading the dialogue makes me think that they *all* seem to be diehards. Given that I don't see any hint of at all wanting to go back to no Kzer-Za or Kohr-Ah. On a social level they could "fuse" without any physical changes -- nothing forces them not to work together except their mutual distrust and dislike of the other caste.
And anyway, my point there was just that "fusing" is not a good way to put it. Each individual Kzer-Za would be radically changing their bodies and each Kohr-Ah another, to fit the pattern of a species that hasn't existed in millennia. It would not be a natural or painless process.
"I think they choose not to, because they both regard their special abilities as Kzer-Za or Kohr-Ah as a badge of pride."
Or maybe they just don't have the genetic material samples that are necessary.
Doubt this immensely. They didn't need genetic material from a Talking Pet to turn Dnyarri into Talking Pets. Why should they need to have Brown Ur-Quan DNA to make Brown Ur-Quan? They seem to be able to make great big modifications almost from scratch.
"it's hard to identify a genetic heritage -- the modern Greeks really are nothing of the ancient Greeks -- but the cultural heritage is stark and obvious. The Egyptians left behind monuments, those monuments shape contemporary Egyptian self-understanding, even though the Egyptians who built them are almost totally different racially from the ones who guide tours there today."
I find it hard to believe that those entire peoples got completely destroyed. If so, who would have been left to pass down their cultures?
Their cultures aren't passed down, or at least not in a separate, recognizable form. The Etruscans get absorbed into the Latins and later Romans with only faint traces of what might have come from their culture still visible. Otherwise it's just some old documents and artifacts and monuments that people dig up and try to figure out.
"Crocodilians already existed quite separately from dinosaurs during the reign of dinosaurs -- dinosaurs' most direct descendants are birds." Maybe that's because Crocodilians are *relatives* of dinosaurs, not *descendents*.
Yes. Which means that alligators are irrelevant to the idea of a remnant of dinosaurs existing. Alligators and crocodiles and things *already* existed *with* the dinosaurs, and when the dinosaurs died they kept on existing.
It still functions to make the same point -- many species go on living. But it is different -- it's a common misconception that dinosaurs are a form of reptile, when really they're a transition between reptiles and modern avians.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Art
Frungy champion
Offline
Posts: 80
|
The Kzer-Za, anyway, refer to the Kohr-Ah as "devils" and refuse to cooperate with them even when something as momentous as the Dnyarri coming back happens. You're assuming that that "devils" remark isn't just the opinion of one Kzer-Za soldier. And it's not that the Kzer-Za don't want to cooperate, it's just that they don't expect the Kohr-Ah to "see the danger until it is too late".
One of the conceits of the game is that each captain you talk to is somehow a "typical" member of his race and speaks for everyone. Otherwise many things just don't make sense. (Yes, this is unrealistic. Like I said, conceit.)
Kzer-Za don't have "soldiers" in the sense you seem to mean -- there's a small number of Kzer-Za that all seem to view themselves as officers/council members/political leaders. It's part of the Ur-Quan ego. At least, some random Kzer-Za captain feels perfectly qualified to decide that your crimes merit execution, that you will be punished but your crew won't if you surrender, that you can be absolved of your crimes if you tell them about the Dnyarri, that they shouldn't talk to the Kohr-Ah Primat, etc.
And that excuse is a dumb one. Of course the Kohr-Ah won't see the danger until it's too late if they aren't told at all. Yes, the Kohr-Ah could slow down the process of searching for the Dnyarri if they argue or purposely try to obstruct or whatever, and yet it still seems far more logical to give the Kohr-Ah the *chance* to help rather than blindly insist on fighting the Doctrinal Conflict to its end. It feels like the Kzer-Za simply distrust the Kohr-Ah by instinct -- assume they will be headstrong and unhelpful -- even in the direst of straits.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
