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Topic: RTS Games (Read 16534 times)
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Death 999
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Two Xel-Naga (great players) would shift their build priorities to an end-game setup before it was too late.
In particular, as minerals get scarce, a good player will realize that at least gas never runs out, and focus on the gas-heavy/mineral-light units. Mostly, these are spellcasters.
Terrans will get science vessels for picking off the enemy, and ghosts (25 minerals cheap!)
Zerg will get queens and defilers. If the terrans are totally out of minerals, then explosive plague is a death knell, especially on buildings. If the terrans still have air power, then Scourge could be a good idea.
Protoss will forget about reavers and carriers, perhaps going for light templar, and both flavors of archon, and maybe an arbiter. Depends on the upgrades they already bought, I guess.
So, sure, a stalemate is possible... but it implies that both players lacked foresight.
Exercise: suppose you have 500 minerals left... and both players have large bases with passive defenses (colonies for the zerg, nearly-empty bunkers, and turrets for the terrans. The terrans have one medic). Everything is fully upgraded. Each side has three builders left, presently gathering gas (you have thousands upon thousands of gas). No one has attacked in a while, so you conclude that the other side is in a similar situation. The zerg have five overlords, two of them blinded; the terrans have two comsat stations. Spider-mines are an issue.
What do you do, given all the time you need to think about this? I can see potential strategies for each side... and it's unstable, so whichever one wins in the end is very likely going to take the whole thing... if they make the right build choices.
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Deus Siddis
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« Reply #31 on: January 25, 2006, 01:42:06 am » |
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"Terrans will get science vessels for picking off the enemy, and ghosts (25 minerals cheap!)"
But what would they do against photon cannons?
"So, sure, a stalemate is possible... but it implies that both players lacked foresight."
And they should both suffer losses for their foolishness, but it is still boring if there is no chance to right this mistake. If there is no winner.
I don't mean that there should be a plethora of minerals poring in throughout the game, just that maybe there should be some trickle of minerals that can be tapped in later games, similar to how the depleted vespane geysers continue to supply gas, even if it just a quarter of what they used to output.
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Draxas
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OK, kids. Since you really want to debate this very badly, apparently, here was the setup when we quit.
Starcraft Original only (this was before Brood War was out)
Reasonably big map
My base was defended by several bunkers full of marines, one turret and Siege Tank per bunker, and a small strike force of Wraiths for holding off the inevitable Guardian attacks. I also had a few Vultures (spider mines were still deployed in a couple of places, but most were gone already), and a Ghost or 2 (no nukes).
His base was loaded with colonies of both types, and backed up by Guardians and Hydralisks (buried, and far enough in so the trying to irradiate them would get a Science Vessel pelted by spores first). I imagine he also had at least one Defiler, though I had never seen him use it. I had been mercilessly killing his Queens as a matter of course, any time they tried to come after my tanks.
Nobody WANTS to make the first move; minerals are gone, vespene is coming in at a trickle, and a strike force would have to be taken from the defensive line
I'm sure there were viable strategies to avoid this situation, but neither of us were pros; In the long run, he was probably playing better, and I was much more on the defensive the whole game, but this is how it ended up anyway. So yeah, the game ended in a stalemate (and thus, failure for multiplayer, as far as we were concerned).
Part of this was our playing styles; he was determined to have a more interesting game than a typical Zerg Rush (kekeke), and I'm a defensive player by nature. So we ended up deadlocked. It happens, but it sours you opinion of the experience if the whole thing winds up devolving to that state after a few hours of play.
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Deus Siddis
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"So yeah, the game ended in a stalemate (and thus, failure for multiplayer, as far as we were concerned)."
Then the question for you is, would the game have succeeded in offering a challenging and rewarding experience if there was a renewable/non-terminating supply of minerals?
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Death 999
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"Terrans will get science vessels for picking off the enemy, and ghosts (25 minerals cheap!)"
But what would they do against photon cannons?
Science vessel Defensive matrixes a ghost, EMP's some cannons. The ghost walks into range, shoots until the player estimates the Matrix is about to wear off, then flees. Heal with medic, repeat.
Obviously, this isn't going to work if the enemy has troops left, or if you aren't playing Broodwar.
If you have two science vessels, this goes many times as fast (since three ghosts need only one EMP but three defensive matrices, and you can have each one retreat only as THEIR shield is about to wear out)
If the photon cannons are very dense, you won't get very far this way, it is true. You'd need two science vessels constantly replenishing the shield on one ghost to get him in.
Note that ghost is not preferable to a marine here, due to their concussive damage (though their superior range may help pick apart medium-density photon cannon arrays).
Note, I didn't say it wouldn't take a long time.
"So, sure, a stalemate is possible... but it implies that both players lacked foresight."
And they should both suffer losses for their foolishness, but it is still boring if there is no chance to right this mistake. If there is no winner.
Maybe they'll take it as a learning experience.
SO: specific to your situation, Draxas!
Could you buy ANYTHING, or were you totally out? Was he?
The following assumes you were both totally broke.
So, let's look at this: your siege weapons have longer range and greater power.
His siege weapons can attack your siege weapons
You can attack and destroy his siege weapons fairly quickly with wraiths, if they come to counterattack.
If you use the full range of the siege tanks, the guardians will have to come out significantly past the spore colonies to return fire. This drastically exposes them to the wraiths.
Furhermore, if you strike first, the spore colonies might not even exist by the time the guardians get there.
Also remember, the wraiths are expendable IF you can with that sacrifice wipe out his last guardians.
Specifically what I would do is get all (perhaps excepting one, for reasons that will become clear later) of your siege tanks together where they can attack part of his base. Bring the wraiths in as close as they dare.
Then siege the tanks, with the wraiths as spotters (keep the tanks as FAR BACK AS POSSIBLE). If there are spore colonies near the border here, direct the tank fire to wipe them out as fast as possible. If you have at least 4 tanks, wiping out one spore colony won't take long, and it's likely that only one will be the closest to the tanks.
If you do wipe the nearest spore colony, then your wraiths can attack any counterattacking guardians unopposed by spore colonies, which would be a nice touch.
Make sure to stagger the siege tanks' entry into siege mode so that they won't waste shots simultaneously destroying the same target.
Next, it depends whether he responds with hydralisks or guardians or both. Hydralisks? Let the tanks chew on them. If he has too many hydralisks for tanks to beat back comfortably, then bring out the marines and bikes as additional cover (though this will make the operation more cumbersome, and the marines are more vulnerable to guardians, etc.)
Guardians? Wipe them with the wraiths. Shouldn't take long unless there are many of them.
Both? This is going to be ugly, but if you pull it off, you've won right there.
How should you proceed? Well, if you can wipe out his detection, then the wraiths become INVEENCIBLE!
This is cold comfort for the tanks left stranded, and they may be wiped out while the wraiths finish clobbering the guardians. Still, if you can clean out the guardians and get the hydralisks down to a moderate level, then you can finish the job with just one siege tank and a couple marines' support for what hydralisks may remain.
If you want to have a little more leeway, try landing some mobile buildings in the way to impede the progress of the hydralisks toward your line. Just set that engineering bay down right there, and it'll keep them from closing to point-blank range. There should be just enough room to fit one in outside the creep, if you're attacking north or south (though I won't swear to it, I've never tried). East-west attacks won't be so blessed.
Speaking of which, if he has queens, park the hovering buildings over your tanks to prevent them from being broodlinged.
Also, if there are multiple places you could be PUTTING the siege tanks (from the east or the south), then you can hover buildings over all the possible emplacements (whether occupied or not) so he might send the defenders in the wrong direction.
Now, this changes drastically for the better if you have a science vessel. Then all you need is to siege ONE tank and put a matrix on it. When he sends the response out, irradiate it and run away. You can use floating buildings even more productively here. Siege, fire one shot, and un-siege... all under a building. He won't necessarily know that you matrixed the tank, and he might not even realize that you un-sieged. Then you'll be all ready to run away without even waiting for the un-siegeing process.
Not gauranteed, but I think it's a good start. Certainly, if you have wraiths and his only siege equipment is guardians (i.e. no zergling or ultralisk hordes), it's your game to lose.
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« Last Edit: January 26, 2006, 12:16:58 am by Death 999 »
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Draxas
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Suffice to say, we don't have the game saved... But still interesting strategy to read.
I can't provide details on each of out EXACT tactical situations, but I do remember that my strikes from land were limited to a single western approach. Not the best tactical situation, but meh. Also, by this time, he had so many Overlords around, that attempting to eliminate all his detectors before my Wraiths would have been picked apart would be foolhardy to even attempt, especially since I was down to a fairly small fleet of them.
I must say, I can't say whether or not a replenishing supply of minerals would have helped the game... By the time we hit stalemate, we were both already pretty bored, and maybe giving up on the game was a foregone conclusion either way. However, I also remember my first net-game of Red Alert against a different friend; we played for easily the same amount of time, and were deadlocked for most of that time there as well. But it still stayed fun and engaging throughout, possibly because every time one of our attacks failed, we could still rely on a trickly of minerals to eventually fund the next one... Not to mention that we were flinging nukes back & forth the entire game.  Maybe that's why I have a more favorable view of C&C vs. Starcraft, as far as multi goes; Every match of C&C I've played against a friend has been fun, no matter how frustrating (in the case of original; NEVER PLAY NOD!) the experience or embarassing the loss (that game I mentioned above in Red Alert ended with my friend working a line of Tesla Coils across the map until he was able to build them in the middle of my defensive line. I was powerless to stop him at that point).
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Deus Siddis
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"The ghost walks into range, shoots until the player estimates the Matrix is about to wear off, then flees. Heal with medic, repeat.
Obviously, this isn't going to work if the enemy has troops left, or if you aren't playing Broodwar."
You mentioned the zerg had queens and the protoss had archons. They would make short work of a single ghost, or even a squad of them, during a base assault. As a matter of fact, all the low mineral, high vespane units fall before the Dark Archon, which is possibly the only really unbalanced unit of the game.
"Maybe they'll take it as a learning experience."
The first time perhaps.
"If you want to have a little more leeway, try landing some mobile buildings in the way to impede the progress of the hydralisks toward your line. Just set that engineering bay down right there, and it'll keep them from closing to point-blank range."
"that game I mentioned above in Red Alert ended with my friend working a line of Tesla Coils across the map until he was able to build them in the middle of my defensive line. I was powerless to stop him at that point."
I'd completely forgotten about those tactics. No one can ever quite emotionally recover from lossing a battle to buildings. 
"I must say, I can't say whether or not a replenishing supply of minerals would have helped the game... But it still stayed fun and engaging throughout, possibly because every time one of our attacks failed, we could still rely on a trickly of minerals to eventually fund the next one..."
Also, having an infinite supply (even if it has bottlenecks) keeps horders (like me) from winning too many of the long term games. It is also nice to be able to launch intermediate game attacks without completely ruining you chance of long term survival, should a battle or two go sour.
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Death 999
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Okay, lots of overlords wandering around? If they're wandering around you can work on thinning their populations with the wraiths.
If you have science vessels, or even one, this gets easier. Just point and kill. But it seems you didn't.
"The ghost walks into range, shoots until the player estimates the Matrix is about to wear off, then flees. Heal with medic, repeat.
Obviously, this isn't going to work if the enemy has troops left, or if you aren't playing Broodwar."
You mentioned the zerg had queens and the protoss had archons. They would make short work of a single ghost, or even a squad of them, during a base assault. As a matter of fact, all the low mineral, high vespane units fall before the Dark Archon, which is possibly the only really unbalanced unit of the game.
You spoke of photon cannons, I gave a photon cannon solution. They're not going to be backed up by queens. Obviously, the units must be dealt with first.
Light archons can be dealt with easily with an EMP and then being shot by the ghosts.
And if the protoss have dark archons, it's THEIR game to win or lose.
But if it's zerg and they have queens, then irradiate the queen. A queen-for-ghost trade is heavily in favor of the terran.
"Maybe they'll take it as a learning experience."
The first time perhaps.
if they take it as a learning experience, there won't be a second time.
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Deus Siddis
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"if they take it as a learning experience, there won't be a second time."
An interesting theory there, W.O.P.R., but online gaming (multiplayer) is not always that simple. 
You are dealing with people, who both innovate and make mistakes. A balanced game means that, given two balanced players, battles ending in stalemate are not too unusual. But given the time, things will eventually swing one way and somebodies going to lose, just because of random chance mixed with the complicated nature of human minds. The question in starcraft is, will that happen before the resources really start to dwindle.
Do you think that Starcraft's winning formula would really be trashed by having some form of nonexpendable (think depleted vespane geysers) mineral resources?
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« Last Edit: January 28, 2006, 03:57:58 am by Deus_Siddis »
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Death 999
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We did. You did. Yes we can. No.
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What I meant was, if they get into some boring stalemate with neither player able to build at all at the end, then they will learn to avoid this very particular way of screwing themselves up.
Sure, the game is chaotic and unpredictable. But anyone can tell when they're running out of crystals, and act accordingly... regardless of the rest of the situation.
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Shiver
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I'll play someone at Broodwar. I haven't played it in years so I'll probably lose badly, but who wants to go?
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Death 999
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We did. You did. Yes we can. No.
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... I didn't bring my disk. How does wednesday evening sound?
er... time zone? I'm in US - eastern (GMT minus 5)
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Deus Siddis
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I played the god awful N64 version back in the day. I've got to sell it on eBay and then buy a copy of the battlechest before I'm ready for online matches in the good old Koprulu sector.
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Shiver
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... I didn't bring my disk. How does wednesday evening sound?
er... time zone? I'm in US - eastern (GMT minus 5)
Ok.
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Death 999
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We did. You did. Yes we can. No.
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... doh! Forgot my CD. How about Thursday instead.
At one minute short of midnight, GMT (that's 7:00 EST) sound good?
I'll start a game on battlenet, as Drachefly, entitled UQM-fans.
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