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Author Topic: Muslim caricatures  (Read 23531 times)
JonoPorter
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Re: Muslim caricatures
« Reply #60 on: February 28, 2006, 08:26:10 am »

Paraphrasing.
So that’s what they are calling misquoting now?

Seriously why would I want to understand the thought process of people who automatically blame Israel and the west for anything and everything?
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Lukipela
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Re: Muslim caricatures
« Reply #61 on: February 28, 2006, 08:38:58 am »

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Paraphrasing is the act in which a statement or remark is explained in other words or another way — as to clarify the meaning, or when a direct quotation is unavailable. Often, a paraphrase might substitute a euphemism for an actual statement, in order to avoid offense. As with a quotation, a paraphrase is introduced by a verbum dicendi, or disclaimer.

I'll concede that I didn't specifically state I was paraphrasing (no disclaimer), but as your post was right above mine, I really didn't think there was any risk someone would miss the fact that I wasn't using your exact words.  Tell you what, if someone does come in and misinterpret it that way, I'll stick up for you and explain that i misquoted you. Satisfied?

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Seriously why would I want to understand the thought process of people who automatically blame Israel and the west for anything and everything?

Er..To know your enemy? To avoid broad generalizations? To foster understanding and peace? To find a solution?

You do realize that you could just as well be a muslim board member going "Seriously, why would I want to understand the thought processes of people who automatically blame my religion and geographic location for anything and everything?"

While nothing justifies violent attacks on embassies and suchlike, that doesn't mean that you can automatically assume that someone burning a flag is a violent embassiepillager. Unless I'm misinformed, people even burn flags in the US.
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Deus Siddis
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Re: Muslim caricatures
« Reply #62 on: February 28, 2006, 05:03:52 pm »

(Middle Eastern violence pauses, as the long awaited return of both Bioslayer and Lukipela to the same dimension and forum sets the true stage for Armageddon.)


"Er..To know your enemy?"

Perhaps with a mutual and strict isolationist policy, the two sides (however you define them) wouldn't have to be enemies.


"To avoid broad generalizations?"

People who make broad generalizations about this, might be doing so because of the seeming broad scale of the very heated protesting (which would not be a bad thing necessarily, if it was not over cartoons, especially since they were made by Europeans, not Israelis or Americans.)


"To foster understanding and peace? To find a solution?"

These might just be the values of a minority. To be very general about it, one can very easily have total freedom and total peace and still be entirely miserable. This can apply to groups of people of like mind as well, be they religions, nations, radical fringe groups, retro gamers, etc.


"less I'm misinformed, people even burn flags in the US."

Yes, our own flag most of the time that it happens.
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Lukipela
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Re: Muslim caricatures
« Reply #63 on: February 28, 2006, 05:44:44 pm »

(Middle Eastern violence pauses, as the long awaited return of both Bioslayer and Lukipela to the same dimension and forum sets the true stage for Armageddon.)

Armageddon? It's doubtful. Unless memory fails me, me and Bio have been on opposite sides of arguments before, and the world is still spinning. Just because you disagree with someone on certain issues doesn't mean you feel the need to be bloody enemies. Or so I would assume.

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Perhaps with a mutual and strict isolationist policy, the two sides (however you define them) wouldn't have to be enemies.

The problem is that the west can't isolate itself, we need the oil. Also, isolation hasn't worked very well for any group that has tried it (US, China, Japan). You can't hide from the world.

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People who make broad generalizations about this, might be doing so because of the seeming broad scale of the very heated protesting (which would not be a bad thing necessarily, if it was not over cartoons, especially since they were made by Europeans, not Israelis or Americans.)

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say here. The protest were against Denmark, Norway, Austria and others to begin with. The demonstrations against the mosque bombing were against the US (which is completely illogical). Also, because something seems one way doesn't mean it's wise to assume it is so. I'm sure people hwo's only picture of the US is formed through sitcoms would have a pretty screwed up idea of how the states work. Just because it seems like a general thing doesn't mean it is. Same goes fro demonstrations. Not everyone demonstarted, and not all demonstrations became violent. And not all violent demonstartaions were necessarily really about cartoons or politics.

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These might just be the values of a minority. To be very general about it, one can very easily have total freedom and total peace and still be entirely miserable. This can apply to groups of people of like mind as well, be they religions, nations, radical fringe groups, retro gamers, etc.

Again, I'm not sure what context this has to what you quote from me. sound principle though.

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Yes, our own flag most of the time that it happens.

I've never quite gotten the jist behind burning any flag. When all is said and done, it's just a piece of fabric.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2006, 05:46:24 pm by Lukipela » Logged

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Re: Muslim caricatures
« Reply #64 on: February 28, 2006, 05:51:01 pm »

(Middle Eastern violence pauses, as the long awaited return of both Bioslayer and Lukipela to the same dimension and forum sets the true stage for Armageddon.)

Armageddon? It's doubtful. Unless memory fails me, me and Bio have been on opposite sides of arguments before, and the world is still spinning. Just because you disagree with someone on certain issues doesn't mean you feel the need to be bloody enemies. Or so I would assume.

I think it's just that you've been away for a while. He didn't mention which side you were on.

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Yes, our own flag most of the time that it happens.

I've never quite gotten the jist behind burning any flag. When all is said and done, it's just a piece of fabric.

It's still extremely rare. Like, happens once every couple years somewhere in the country rare. Except for flag disposal. Burning the flag is what you're supposed to do with it when it's too worn out to fly.
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Deus Siddis
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Re: Muslim caricatures
« Reply #65 on: February 28, 2006, 06:44:09 pm »

"The problem is that the west can't isolate itself, we need the oil."

Not exactly, we just prefer oil when it comes at a good price. It is no longer at a good price, so we now look towards getting our juice from grains. If we lose our addiction to oil, then the middle east will lose its one great supply of income, perhaps resulting in permanent poverty, until maybe the ice age makes the deserts green again.


"You can't hide from the world."

You can but it will hurt you some if you isolate from the Entire world.


"I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say here."

The cartoon riots seemed to cover a very large area, many nations, and many people. This, plus the fact that is was about cartoons, plus the fact that they were drawn by Europeans who have usually stuck up for muslims, equals a lot of shock to secularists and other religions in the "west," however you define it. (Is Russia, Israel, or India the "West"?)


"Again, I'm not sure what context this has to what you quote from me."

You were talking about peace and a solution. I was saying that most people on all sides do not consider that to be a very high priority. Most would consider peace a respit before going back to accomplishing their long term goals (which often are not good for the other guy.)


"I've never quite gotten the jist behind burning any flag. When all is said and done, it's just a piece of fabric."

Nobody cares about that, but angry flag burning is sort of a prelude or symbol of coming violence against that nation. It is often a visual way of saying "I hate you, now die!"


"I think it's just that you've been away for a while. He didn't mention which side you were on."

You mean good or evil? The evil side is whichever you are not, and afterwards, whoever didn't survive. But I was thinking more of the four armies and massive destruction than good and bad. And of course, I was joking (I didn't think an emoticon was necessary.) And I don't mean to interfere either. A good forum battle that doesn't pit the world against myself, can add some life to an off topic section.
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Re: Muslim caricatures
« Reply #66 on: February 28, 2006, 07:24:32 pm »

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Not exactly, we just prefer oil when it comes at a good price. It is no longer at a good price, so we now look towards getting our juice from grains. If we lose our addiction to oil, then the middle east will lose its one great supply of income, perhaps resulting in permanent poverty, until maybe the ice age makes the deserts green again.

I tihkn you are oversimplifying things a bit here. In principle I agree with you. Oil will be phased out, and when that day comes, the Middle east will lose all of it's leverage on the world, and recede to a poor underdeveloped region. But it's not like this shift is going to happen very quickly. Replacing oil in all of our consumer products, from fuel to plastics and lubricants, and in all industrial processes will take time and demand a massive refurbishment of the industrialized world. Until then, we are in fact dependent on the oil. It will also demand some technology that isn't really feasible yet. This is a problem that needs to be solved anyhow, but we're still a bit off. sure, in a century people will look back and shake their heads in wonder, but it's not like we can snap our fingers, isolate us and leave the rest of the world be right now.

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You can but it will hurt you some if you isolate from the Entire world.

Globalisation brings the world much closer than you might like DS. Isolating ourselves at this stage (even after discovering an alternative to oil) is no easy feat.

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The cartoon riots seemed to cover a very large area, many nations, and many people. This, plus the fact that is was about cartoons, plus the fact that they were drawn by Europeans who have usually stuck up for muslims, equals a lot of shock to secularists and other religions in the "west," however you define it. (Is Russia, Israel, or India the "West"?)

You keep saying "just cartoons". Different things matter differently to different people. Just because you find it silly doesn't mean everyone does. Just the same way that some might find abortion a unimportant subject, while others are ready to do battle over it. Don't underestimate what things can set people off. Demonstrating against something you dislike is very much "freedom of speech", as long as protests aren't violent. As I said earlier though, the riots didn't seem to have that much to do with the actual cartoons anyhow.

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You were talking about peace and a solution. I was saying that most people on all sides do not consider that to be a very high priority. Most would consider peace a respit before going back to accomplishing their long term goals (which often are not good for the other guy.)

Is this really what you believe? I would be more inclined that most regular people, given the chance, would prefer to just live out their lives in peace and quiet.

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A good forum battle that doesn't pit the world against myself, can add some life to an off topic section.

Just wait and see, you usually get yourself involved anyhow. For the record though, you did well on the whole gay debate Wink
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Re: Muslim caricatures
« Reply #67 on: February 28, 2006, 08:03:11 pm »

I know things don't happen overnight, I'm not saying they do. Which is why peace on this issue is probably not real close at hand.


"Globalisation brings the world much closer than you might like DS."

I can't say that I'm a supporter of globalization, no. Too much dependence often leads to trouble. What do you think of it?


"Just the same way that some might find abortion a unimportant subject, while others are ready to do battle over it."

Abortion deals with lives, that I can understand. But cartoons? Sticks-and-Stones people, don't sweat it. If everyone were not so quick to be offended, how many conflicts like these could be prevented do you think?


"Is this really what you believe? I would be more inclined that most regular people, given the chance, would prefer to just live out their lives in peace and quiet."

Food, vengeance, money, relationships, survival, victory, heaven, games, gods, etc. These can all be priorities over peace. Peace is the paramount goal for a minority of people. But yes many would like peace, especially if it comes from their enemies being dust. Smiley


"Just wait and see, you usually get yourself involved anyhow. For the record though, you did well on the whole gay debate."

Aye, it is a curse. I don't mean to start major debates, but on some forums people get more upset about things than on others. Which in real life, is why we have lots of Wars! Smiley
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Re: Muslim caricatures
« Reply #68 on: February 28, 2006, 10:07:30 pm »

You know America could be an exporter of oil if the stupid ignorant environmentalist would stop being obstructionist. We have enough oil in America to put the Middle East to shame. We just are not allowed to drill it because environmentalists file frivolous law suites to stop anything that could be considered progress and people like senator Kerry who filibuster any thing related to this to death.
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Re: Muslim caricatures
« Reply #69 on: March 01, 2006, 04:19:18 am »

The problem is not drilling on parks, it is that oil companies often don't do so in a responsible way. Instead of Interstel, you often end up with Weyland-Yutani and Crimson Corporation leveling parks and dumping shit all over the place in the effort to out compete each other and send unholy profits to their top levels. If they maintained more reliable reputations, oil companies could theoretically mine without a major snafu. But they can't control themselves, so drilling only really takes place in deserts, on a large scale.

Another major bottle neck, is Russia's inability to keep its oil pirates under control. With proper development, their wells might out compete peaking saudi wells, regulated US wells, and the crumy Canadian oil rocks.
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Re: Muslim caricatures
« Reply #70 on: March 01, 2006, 05:29:40 am »

So where did the situation you describe happen and when?
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Re: Muslim caricatures
« Reply #71 on: March 01, 2006, 03:58:25 pm »

We have enough oil in America to put the Middle East to shame.

This, I have not heard. Where do we keep all of this oil? So far as I know, almost all of our oil reserves are in the form of oil shale, which is really awkward and expensive and slow to process.

As for ANWR, there isn't that much there.
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Re: Muslim caricatures
« Reply #72 on: March 01, 2006, 04:08:13 pm »

Well for starters, the oil tanker spills don't make real great press. Accidents happen, but with better ships, and safer but slower routes, these might have been avoidable. When the massive environmental damage this sort of thing causes makes the headlines, people lose trust in oil companies' competence or trustworthiness.

But I do think they could safely drill in alaska and other places, if they were careful and invested the resources into it. That would include setting aside funds to remove everything that they put there, once the oil is tapped out to a certain point where it no longer very profitable.


"As for ANWR, there isn't that much there."

I've heard that it only provides a years' worth of national full-out usage before it is really depleted. You almost think it should be preserved as a last resort for security reasons, though building the infrastructure up there would take a while.
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Re: Muslim caricatures
« Reply #73 on: March 01, 2006, 08:02:04 pm »

I can't say that I'm a supporter of globalization, no. Too much dependence often leads to trouble. What do you think of it?

I tihnk that uncontrolled globalization is a dangerous thing. Because of the  socioeconomical differences between countries and continents, wild globalization coupled with capitalism is troublesome to say the least. It gives you sweatshops instead of equal opportunity. Howver, in the long run it is really the only way to go. The world is much more tightly integrated than it was fifty years ago, so much that no single (industrial) country is anywhere near independent, resource-, productioncapacity-, or economicswise. We need eachother. And of course, ther's always the futture to look towards. space exploration, world peace, viable ecological enrgypolitics, these are all things that no country can do on their own. So we do need globalization. As I said, countrys that isolate themselves often end up regretting it. the same is probably true on a larger scale.

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Abortion deals with lives, that I can understand. But cartoons? Sticks-and-Stones people, don't sweat it. If everyone were not so quick to be offended, how many conflicts like these could be prevented do you think?

To be technical, abortion deals with souls. You kill a lot of living cells everytime you pleasure yourself, and we kill lots of animals with no thought regarding to the morality of their situation. Abortion is conencted to morality and religion. Still, maybe it was a bad example. The problem with a discussion liek this is, there are no holy things in the western world. Well, maybe freedom of speech. Everyone seems to be up in arms about that, even though it's just a flawed concept.

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Food, vengeance, money, relationships, survival, victory, heaven, games, gods, etc. These can all be priorities over peace. Peace is the paramount goal for a minority of people. But yes many would like peace, especially if it comes from their enemies being dust. Smiley

I think we'll just agree to disagree then. I believe that msot (not all) people wouuld prefer to just live their lifes in peace, ratehr than turn around and make up an enemy. Maybe I'm just naive.

As fotr the oil thing, maybe someone should open another topic to discuss that in? unless the original thread creator feels alright with this hijack?
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Re: Muslim caricatures
« Reply #74 on: March 01, 2006, 10:28:37 pm »

"The world is much more tightly integrated than it was fifty years ago, so much that no single (industrial) country is anywhere near independent,"

Probably true, but that doesn't mean that with some time and careful restructuring, this could be reversed (given the motivation.)


"And of course, ther's always the futture to look towards. space exploration, world peace, viable ecological enrgypolitics, these are all things that no country can do on their own."

You're a treky? Smiley

Seriously though, I think it would be a lot safer if people didn't keep tying all these things together. If you built a powerful world government, you could (while gaining peace) give away the freedoms that most people today would consider to be their rights. Every super power in history has pretty much turned toward being a little oppressive. Power corrupts. If history is any guide, a world government of the future would be no peaceful federation of planets. The UN looks like a good example of peaceful, benevolent world government, because it is not, nor does it carry any real power. The burden and control of it rests on the security council. Why bother corrupting something that has no muscle anyway.


"To be technical, abortion deals with souls."

Well, technical for us maybe, but the scientific community probably would not agree on that. And I don't think religions completely understand the abortion issue, so I wouldn't want to weight the arguement to much towards unproven beliefs.

What I do understand though, from a more reason oriented approach, is that while early on you are dealing with simple cell clusters, you eventually end up with a human baby that is not yet outside. The idea that he/she is not sentient until the head or whatever has left the mother makes no sense to me. So murder or not, at that late stage, it is killing a child. And I can see how that would upset people. Just as many people don't see the horrors of war on their TV, they don't see this kind of death either.

But don't get me wrong, I know that both war and abortion, meat eating (I only eat seafood) all have their place, along with volcanos and the tsunamies they sometimes cause, hurricanes, wildfires, etc. Just don't gloss over them, they exist and they are part of this world and part of any reaonable morale guide you wish to form.

Damn, no one goes off topic like me. Smiley


"The problem with a discussion liek this is, there are no holy things in the western world."

Then lets expect this from those we deal with. They can create counter cartoons that attack jesus, the holocaust, and everything else that they were planning to do in retaliation. Just don't use violence in return for cartoons, unless peace and/or unity are not what you seek.


"Well, maybe freedom of speech. Everyone seems to be up in arms about that, even though it's just a flawed concept."

Agreed, there are plenty of things we can't say despite the great "freedom of speech" that we are supposed to possess. I learned the hard way. Sad


"I think we'll just agree to disagree then. I believe that msot (not all) people wouuld prefer to just live their lifes in peace, ratehr than turn around and make up an enemy."

That's fine, but don't get me wrong- I don't think most people want war for war's sake. They just have things that sometimes they can get through war and sometimes they can get through during peace. I'm just saying it is not a simple equation.


"unless the original thread creator feels alright with this hijack?"

Well, he didn't mind a debate on the true definition of "paraphrasing" Wink.

Seriously though, I don't want to take over a thread. If StaffyStar wants me to get back on topic, then that is what I will do. (Though staying there will be the hard part.) Smiley
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