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Author Topic: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!  (Read 27942 times)
XR4-IT
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Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
« Reply #45 on: April 04, 2006, 11:52:07 pm »

Okay, I'll bite, why don't people in the Jewish community give
burnt offerings? The smell? The waste?

The reason has more to do with practicality than anything else. In the days of the first and second temples, people had a place to gather to make these offerings, and a dedicated, on-site clergy to care for both the location the sacrifices were made, and the rites and customs necessary to sanctify the sacrifices themselves. However, with the destruction of the second temple, the Diaspora (which scattered the Jewish people across the world), and the general move away from an agrarian society and toward other ways of life, making burnt offerings of crops and livestock was considered an impractical and outdated practice, and was discontinued. In their place, the Rabbis suggest mitzvot (good deds) and tzedukah (roughly translated, charity) instead.

I never thought of it that way.

I thought that it was because the line of priesthood that was held by the Sons of Aaron and the Levites was broken, and because of that there was no one left with the authority to perform the ordinances of sacrifice.

I could be wrong though. I don’t know that many Jews, and they could still be conferring the priesthood on the Sons of Aaron to this day.

Draxas if you happen to read this let me know.


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Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
« Reply #46 on: April 05, 2006, 04:58:46 am »

I wonder why the Jews stopped too I mean if they dont believe Jesus was the Mesiah then they need to continue giving burnt offerings for thier sins.

And Deus what do u mean Why we switched from believing in Reincarnation WE NEVER I REPEAT NEVER BELIEVED IN REINCARNATION.

Draxas Please stay. Only guy im gettin upset with is Deus but thats just cause he seems to like to twist words and stuff. But I still listen to him. So u most deffinately deserve to stay voice ure oppinion.(As long as u respect what we say too anyways Grin)
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Zeep-Eeep
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Name that religion!
« Reply #47 on: April 05, 2006, 02:07:49 pm »

I'd like to share a little game I sometimes play. I look at
or listen to a person for a few minutes. Then I try to
guess their religion without asking any questions.
If I can guess the religion of the "target" I get a point.
If they have to tell me, I don't get a point. It's best played
with a small group.

Anyway, I bring this up, because I'm going to take a shot
here. XR4-IT, would you be a member of the LDS?

Anyway, back to the topic at hand. Someone here
asked where in the Bible it talks about purgatory. I
think in the book of Mathew, it touches on the idea. It
depends on the inturpretation. You see, Jesus dies
(that's the theory, anyway) and goes to Hades. The
translations differ quite a bit between Bibles. However,
sometimes it's refered to as "Hell", sometimes as
"Hades" sometimes a "land of the dead". Depending
on your translation of the text, you could view it
as purgatory.  In which case Jesus would have been
in purgatory for three days, rather than Heaven or Hell
before returning to life.
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Lukipela
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Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianit
« Reply #48 on: April 05, 2006, 02:08:39 pm »

Because we don't care.

ADD: Actually, it's because we don't want to step on any toes by protesting about a man's religious rights (or lack thereof) in another country.

Which is fine and dandy. But you would still have the right to do so. Just as muslims can go out and protest if you do something offensive to their religion, you are equally entitled to demonstrate if you feel they are violating your sense of ethics. I just find it curious that in the western world, not even die hard fanatic zealots seem to have grasped this. Had I been the head of some large sect, I'd have had my followers torching flags in the street long since. After all, I have full right to express myself.

Quote
Don't want to agitate anyone, after all. Just keep your head down and go about your business, citizen...be politically correct and no one gets hurt...

I seem to recall Chamberlain adopting a similar atitude.

Quote from: DEUS_SIDDIS
No, that's just what he converted to. You could also complain about us mentioning the detail that he is a man, saying his gender isn't the issue either, couldn't you?

Way off the bat there DS. To begin with, I'm not complaining. I'm merely stating a fact. To follow up, the reason I'm doing it is because otherwise a topic name like this is easily misinterpreted. In several places, I've already met people of the firm belief that this is an Afgani anti-christian thing, when it in fact is simply an anti-everyone thing. I simply grow tired of hearing people talk about how christinaity is under seige without cause.

Quote from: BioSlayer
How have I disrespected yours or others' lack of faith?

Well, you could have just said:

Quote from: BioSlayer
I believe that Jesus was raised again on the 3rd day after his death. Ghandi was not.

It still wouldn't have added much to the discussion, but the way you stated it offended our atheists (who are an easily offendable bunch sometimes).

Quote
I'd like to share a little game I sometimes play. I look at
or listen to a person for a few minutes. Then I try to
guess their religion without asking any questions.

Do you play this over the internet? And how specific are you? Does just "Christian" or "muslim" suffice, or do you need to get the presbyterian or sunni part right as well?
« Last Edit: April 05, 2006, 02:10:56 pm by Lukipela » Logged

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Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianit
« Reply #49 on: April 05, 2006, 02:32:31 pm »

Which is fine and dandy. But you would still have the right to do so. Just as muslims can go out and protest if you do something offensive to their religion, you are equally entitled to demonstrate if you feel they are violating your sense of ethics. I just find it curious that in the western world, not even die hard fanatic zealots seem to have grasped this. Had I been the head of some large sect, I'd have had my followers torching flags in the street long since. After all, I have full right to express myself.

Do you mean a protest in general, or a flag burning fest in particular?
I haven't heard of any protest against the treatment of this man (tough I miss a lot of things), and it is quite interesting.
But if you're wondering why we don't engage in flag-burning I think it's because even the fanatics are aware it's a quite silly thing to do. If I burned the flag of a country with witch a disagree, all that would accomplish is turning people from siad country, that might have agreed with me, agaisnt me.

Quote
Quote from: BioSlayer
I believe that Jesus was raised again on the 3rd day after his death. Ghandi was not.

It still wouldn't have added much to the discussion, but the way you stated it offended our atheists (who are an easily offendable bunch sometimes).

That would still leave the question of the reason for such a distinction... but I admit, I'd proably leave the Brian Boitano part out of my question, if it was worded this way.
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Re: Name that religion!
« Reply #50 on: April 05, 2006, 05:43:40 pm »

I'd like to share a little game I sometimes play. I look at
or listen to a person for a few minutes. Then I try to
guess their religion without asking any questions.
If I can guess the religion of the "target" I get a point.
If they have to tell me, I don't get a point. It's best played
with a small group.

Anyway, I bring this up, because I'm going to take a shot
here. XR4-IT, would you be a member of the LDS?

Anyway, back to the topic at hand. Someone here
asked where in the Bible it talks about purgatory. I
think in the book of Mathew, it touches on the idea. It
depends on the inturpretation. You see, Jesus dies
(that's the theory, anyway) and goes to Hades. The
translations differ quite a bit between Bibles. However,
sometimes it's refered to as "Hell", sometimes as
"Hades" sometimes a "land of the dead". Depending
on your translation of the text, you could view it
as purgatory.  In which case Jesus would have been
in purgatory for three days, rather than Heaven or Hell
before returning to life.


You hit me Wink

Any how we of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, Also have a similar doctrine to what you call purgatory, though we simply call it the world of spirits (I think I have seen it called Sheol as well).

This is where the spirits of the dead wait between death and the resurrection. We believe that during the time that Christ was in the world of spirits he taught the spirits of the righteous to prepare them to teach the spirits of those that did not receive the gospel in mortality.

As too the question about what Christian heaven is like, different groups of Christians have different ideas and beliefs.  I can tell you what the LDS people believe though.

First you must understand that we believe that we (all man kind) are the literal spirit children of our Father in Heaven (God). He sent us here to earth to gain a body, experience, and to be tested to see if we can be faithful to him. When we were borne a vale was placed over our memories so that we could not remember our pre-mortal life in the presence of God.

In this life we are tested to see if we can choose good over evil, when we choose good we become more like Christ and our Father in Heaven and grow spiritually.

After death and the resurrection we are judged according to how we did in mortality. If we have repented of our sins and obeyed the laws of the gospel, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ we can be cleansed and found worthy to enter into the presence of God.

Because we are the literal spirit children of our Father in Heaven, if we enter into the highest glory of heaven we can continue to progress and become like our Father in Heaven.

We also believe that families can be together in heaven, and that marriage need not end at death, but that husband and wife can stand together through eternity.
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Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
« Reply #51 on: April 05, 2006, 06:21:26 pm »

Quote
And Deus what do u mean Why we switched from believing in Reincarnation WE NEVER I REPEAT NEVER BELIEVED IN REINCARNATION.

I've heard that early christians believed in reincarnation (which doesn't mean they didn't believe in heaven as well.) Are you every christian who ever lived? How can you be so sure, just because you have read one book (the bible) seven ways to sunday. Your savior didn't write the bible, it was written, rewritten, and translated many times by various non-savior people.


Quote
Only guy im gettin upset with is Deus but thats just cause he seems to like to twist words and stuff.

I'm not twisting words, as I'm not deriving all my points from quotes of the bible. I think the bible is the one that is maybe twisting words, and giving false impressions of events.


Quote
Way off the bat there DS. To begin with, I'm not complaining. I'm merely stating a fact. To follow up, the reason I'm doing it is because otherwise a topic name like this is easily misinterpreted. In several places, I've already met people of the firm belief that this is an Afgani anti-christian thing, when it in fact is simply an anti-everyone thing. I simply grow tired of hearing people talk about how christinaity is under seige without cause.

We didn't think it was christianity, specifically, that was under attack. Hell, many or most of us aren't christians anyway. An anti-everyone thing is actually worse for us. Of course, if most christians really thought they were specifically under attack, it would make them more likely to follow your advise and protest the man's persecution.


Quote
It still wouldn't have added much to the discussion, but the way you stated it offended our atheists (who are an easily offendable bunch sometimes).

I for one am an agnostic, and I didn't feel offended.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2006, 06:25:43 pm by Deus_Siddis » Logged
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Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
« Reply #52 on: April 05, 2006, 07:15:00 pm »

Quote
And Deus what do u mean Why we switched from believing in Reincarnation WE NEVER I REPEAT NEVER BELIEVED IN REINCARNATION.

I've heard that early christians believed in reincarnation (which doesn't mean they didn't believe in heaven as well.) Are you every christian who ever lived?

One of the problems with the early church is that when the gospel was taken to the gentiles (non Israelites)   many of the converts brought with them many of their old beliefs with them. Pall wrote several letters trying to correct many falls ideas that had entered into the church.

Quote
How can you be so sure, just because you have read one book (the bible) seven ways to sunday. Your savior didn't write the bible, it was written, rewritten, and translated many times by various non-savior people.

This is true, what we call the Bible today was not even compiled until a few hundred years after the death of Christ.  Some books of that were considered for the Christian Bible were altogether thrown out, and other books were destroyed before the Bible was compiled as well.

This is one of the reasons that The Church of Jesus Christ believes in our rather large cannon of scripture namely the Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price.

We believe that these books were revealed to us by God, the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price were given to restore lost knowledge, and to correct false doctrine.

We also believe that new Prophets and Apostles have been called by God to lead the Church. These men continue to receive revelation from God. Also we believe that priesthood authority that was given to the ancient Apostles has been restored which allows the church leaders to act in the name of God.     

You are also right that Christianity was not under attack in Afghanistan but rather common human rights.

Quote
We also believe that families can be together in heaven, and that marriage need not end at death, but that husband and wife can stand together through eternity.
Quote

Kind words, but meaningless against the harsh truth. I wonder what you would tell one who believed and was then betrayed by such a lie.

I was curios why out of all the beliefs of mine that I have listed, you did not like this one.
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Re: Name that religion!
« Reply #53 on: April 05, 2006, 07:43:49 pm »


Any how we of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, Also have a similar doctrine to what you call purgatory, though we simply call it the world of spirits (I think I have seen it called Sheol as well).
This is where the spirits of the dead wait between death and the resurrection. We believe that during the time that Christ was in the world of spirits he taught the spirits of the righteous to prepare them to teach the spirits of those that did not receive the gospel in mortality.

I hate to bash apart anything, but "Sheol" is, IIRC, the Hebrew word for "the grave". Mistranslated (and misinterpreted) by Latin and then into English, you have the word "Hell".

I'd check with my pastor, were I you, as my knowledge of religion can be sketchy at best. I'm Christian, but I don't brag about it. I've been staying out of this discussion for that very reason, but I just thought I'd share this little, nonconsequential bit.
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Re: Name that religion!
« Reply #54 on: April 05, 2006, 07:51:46 pm »


Any how we of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, Also have a similar doctrine to what you call purgatory, though we simply call it the world of spirits (I think I have seen it called Sheol as well).
This is where the spirits of the dead wait between death and the resurrection. We believe that during the time that Christ was in the world of spirits he taught the spirits of the righteous to prepare them to teach the spirits of those that did not receive the gospel in mortality.

I hate to bash apart anything, but "Sheol" is, IIRC, the Hebrew word for "the grave". Mistranslated (and misinterpreted) by Latin and then into English, you have the word "Hell".

I'd check with my pastor, were I you, as my knowledge of religion can be sketchy at best. I'm Christian, but I don't brag about it. I've been staying out of this discussion for that very reason, but I just thought I'd share this little, nonconsequential bit.

Thanks for the input.

Perhaps if there are any Jews reading this thread they could tell us a bit more. 
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Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
« Reply #55 on: April 05, 2006, 09:24:28 pm »

Quote
This is one of the reasons that The Church of Jesus Christ believes in our rather large cannon of scripture namely the Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price.

So what is the point of the whole multiple-wives thing? Why can't a wife take multiple husbands? (Or have I misunderstood mormon's concept of polygamy?) Doesn't this make marriage less meaningful?
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Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianit
« Reply #56 on: April 05, 2006, 09:38:31 pm »

Do you mean a protest in general, or a flag burning fest in particular?
I haven't heard of any protest against the treatment of this man (tough I miss a lot of things), and it is quite interesting.
But if you're wondering why we don't engage in flag-burning I think it's because even the fanatics are aware it's a quite silly thing to do. If I burned the flag of a country with witch a disagree, all that would accomplish is turning people from siad country, that might have agreed with me, agaisnt me.

I was thinking more of a general protest, I used the flagburning as an example of a extreme protest. Camping outside embassies of countries that enforce sharia law, demonstarting and protesting was closer to what I meant. Yet, noone seems to be doing that.

Quote from: Deus_Siddis
We didn't think it was christianity, specifically, that was under attack. Hell, many or most of us aren't christians anyway. An anti-everyone thing is actually worse for us. Of course, if most christians really thought they were specifically under attack, it would make them more likely to follow your advise and protest the man's persecution.

Who are these "we" you speak of? Unless you are the spokesman for some larger group, you might want to not speak for anyone else. Just because you didn't think so didn't mean everyone did. Someone simply looking at the topic without prior knowledge of the incident would have no way of knowing this. And if you reread what I already told you:

Quote from: Lukipela
To follow up, the reason I'm doing it is because otherwise a topic name like this is easily misinterpreted. In several places, I've already met people of the firm belief that this is an Afgani anti-christian thing, when it in fact is simply an anti-everyone thing.

You'll find that I am making no claim that someone here had misunderstood it, only that it could be misunderstood.  Which is why I tohught it would be good to ensure that it wouldn't be misunderstood. I am aware that it is briefly mentioned in the article quoted by the OP, but it is just one line, and easy to miss. Comprende?

As for what I don't understand,

Quote from: XR4-IT
Quote
We also believe that families can be together in heaven, and that marriage need not end at death, but that husband and wife can stand together through eternity.

Kind words, but meaningless against the harsh truth. I wonder what you would tell one who believed and was then betrayed by such a lie.
I was curios why out of all the beliefs of mine that I have listed, you did not like this one.

Where did this exchange happen? I only find it in your post  XR, not in any previous one.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2006, 09:41:14 pm by Lukipela » Logged

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Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianit
« Reply #57 on: April 05, 2006, 11:16:08 pm »

By the way, mormons have the most awesome star/planet names I'll be sure to include these in any random star-map generator I write. Sort desc.

  • Os
  • Flis
  • Shineflis
  • Kible
  • Oansli (didn't Elite have a system called this?)
  • Way-oh-ox-oan (crazy!)
  • Waine
  • Venisti
  • Vusel
  • Zip
  • Limdi
  • Kae-e-vanrash (Sounds like some generic RPG demon name)
  • Enish-go-on dosh (my favorite!)
  • Oliblish
  • Kolob (used in Battlestar Galactica, sounds like a root vegitable they eat in Poland though)
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Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
« Reply #58 on: April 06, 2006, 12:12:07 am »

Quote
All we really know about Jesus is what is in the Bible and other holy books, and from what is written in those books we know he had died and took up his body again.
Christians gain understanding that what is in the Bible and other scripture (ancient or otherwise) are truth because of conformation from the Holy Ghost.
We believe that the Holy Ghost is sent to men form God to comfort us, give us direction in our lives, and teach us truth.
As to my uses of the word glory, think of it as receiving different levels of Heaven after the resurrection of the body. The level of glory one attains is based on our merits in mortality, and our faith in the Atonement of the Christ the Holy Messiah. The Atonement is the sacrifice that Jesus made for mankind and through repentance and obedience to the laws of God one can be washed clean through the sacrifice that Christ made for us; therefore we can be admitted clean to stand in the presence of God after the time of the resurrection.

Long definition. Glory = Good (ie not evil then.) So why did you christians switch from believing in reincarnation, to believing in going from one life on to heaven? Also, what is the retirement plan for you and your competitors-- In short, what is the Christian concept of heaven like exactly, and how does it compare to the Islamic or Jewish Paradise/Reincarnation?

As far as I am aware, the Jewish plan isn't terribly exciting. You die, and take a dirt nap. The end, at least until the messiah shows up. Then the dead are revived, and all get to live in Jerusalem together, or something... That's about where things get pretty sketchy. I'm not really the most learned scholar on the subject.

Quote
I never thought of it that way.

I thought that it was because the line of priesthood that was held by the Sons of Aaron and the Levites was broken, and because of that there was no one left with the authority to perform the ordinances of sacrifice.

I could be wrong though. I don’t know that many Jews, and they could still be conferring the priesthood on the Sons of Aaron to this day.

Draxas if you happen to read this let me know.

Read, and responded as per your request.

To this day, members of the tribe of Levi, and the Cohen (priesthood) are qualified, and even required, for certain services and blessings, especially on holy days. However, there is (as far as I'm aware) no formal training for these positions anymore.

Quote
I wonder why the Jews stopped too I mean if they dont believe Jesus was the Mesiah then they need to continue giving burnt offerings for thier sins.

Draxas Please stay. Only guy im gettin upset with is Deus but thats just cause he seems to like to twist words and stuff. But I still listen to him. So u most deffinately deserve to stay voice ure oppinion.(As long as u respect what we say too anyways)

It's a tough call. I have some choice words about some things that have been said, but I know when to excersize restraint. However, you can see one of those statements in the quote above. Use your imagination, please don't make me elaborate, and above all, practice what you preach.

Quote
I hate to bash apart anything, but "Sheol" is, IIRC, the Hebrew word for "the grave". Mistranslated (and misinterpreted) by Latin and then into English, you have the word "Hell".
Quote
Thanks for the input.

Perhaps if there are any Jews reading this thread they could tell us a bit more.

I've heard the term before, but my Hebrew is rusty at best (more like atrocious and nonexistent in reality), so I can't really vouch for that. Seems reasonable; it wouldn't be the first bit of Hebrew that was mangled and mistranslated, intentionally or otherwise.

Quote
Where did this exchange happen? I only find it in your post  XR, not in any previous one.

Not to insinuate anything, but there is a telltale edit on the post DS made just before that one... I'm inclined to believe that he may have regretted typing that out, and tried to go back and remove it before anyone saw... But it looks like he wasn't quick enough. Ah well, these things happen, I can't count the number of times I've done the same thing (on other forums).

Anyway, I think I'll try to fade into the background again now, at least until someone brings up another set of points I feel the need to pick apart and add useless information to. Tongue
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Re: Afghani Man being setenced to death for converting from Islam to Christianity!!!
« Reply #59 on: April 06, 2006, 12:29:24 am »

Quote
I have some choice words about some things that have been said, but I know when to excersize restraint.

If they're about me, go ahead. It really doesn't matter, we'll all see who was right when old grimm comes a' knockin'. Smiley

Seriously, holy wars and disputes are much better fought through text.


Quote
Not to insinuate anything, but there is a telltale edit on the post DS made just before that one... I'm inclined to believe that he may have regretted typing that out, and tried to go back and remove it before anyone saw... But it looks like he wasn't quick enough. Ah well, these things happen, I can't count the number of times I've done the same thing (on other forums).

Yea, that was me, I often post things and then proof-read them, because it is hard to read in these little black boxes. I didn't read what you said carefully enough (specifically, "in heaven".) My bad.


Since you seem eager to explain the ideals of your somewhat mysterious, and perhaps misunderstood religion (by fellow christians and outsiders alike), I'd point out that what most people don't understand, is mostly the (one-gendered) polygamy (and maybe the secret temples somewhat as well.) Why is this allowed, in your faith, and opposed to by your counterparts (within christianity, obviously.)
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