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Author Topic: How do they cram 12 ships onto the Vindicator?  (Read 8466 times)
Shiver
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How do they cram 12 ships onto the Vindicator?
« on: May 07, 2006, 09:57:41 am »

I was just thinking here. I know the precursor vessel is a good deal larger than every other ship but do you really expect me to believe that it can fit 12 capital ships in its skinny hull? And if it's not actually stuffing escorts inside it, why do I not have to pay additional fuel for my support team?

The reason I even bothered to post a question like this--one which I'd normally dismiss as unnecessary--is that it got me thinking about a possible modification to the game. Or in the case of a Star Control sequel, something worth taking a look at. What if the flagship was limited by two escorts at the start of the game, and had to find upgrades that allowed it to ferry more buddies through hyperspace?
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Megagun
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Re: How do they cram 12 ships onto the Vindicator?
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2006, 11:51:07 am »

Well, if the other ships in some way or another "tag along" (either to the outside or to the inside) of the vindicator, it will STILL need extra fuel (since the total mass of the whole "complex" increased, and more mass means more fuel needed)..

However, we don't know hyperspace travel and fuel consumption algorithms at all, so we don't really know..

One maybe more likely situation, is that the captain has a contract with the buddy ship's crew, that they pay for their own fuel. After all, they get money from you, maybe the starbase, and ofcourse they get protection and great adventures from you..

And ofcourse the argument that wins it all: "Err.. What about the crew dieing when you hit them with your little Shofixti dart???" Tongue
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Halleck
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Re: How do they cram 12 ships onto the Vindicator?
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2006, 02:12:32 pm »

I think we can assume that the cost of travel in hyperspace is "flat-rate". It's no different for a vindicator with nothing but a fuel tank and a vindicator armed to the teeth with hellbore cannons and shiva furnaces, nor is it different for a lone vindicator than it is for a vindicator with a full flotilla of escorts.

So, here's my fancruft theory:
the cost is incurred by the projection of the "bubble"/gravity well in hyperspace that the vindicator travels. It costs to move this bubble, but it doesn't really cost to expand it, or it's large enough that it never has to be expanded.
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Re: How do they cram 12 ships onto the Vindicator?
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2006, 03:07:22 pm »

I think either Halleck's theory is correct, or the ships do sit inside the hull (or maybe docked to the outside.) Especially if you go with arne's interpretation that a cruiser is only 30 meters long, or a skiff is 10 meters. These sizes take up nothing when compared to the scale of the MK1 in the intro, with all the ant-sized people standing around it.
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Re: How do they cram 12 ships onto the Vindicator?
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2006, 06:01:39 pm »

I always thought that ships are not inside the Vindicator, but are just hanging near the main ship in the hyperspace "bubble", maybe even attached to the Vindicator by some-kind-of-a-gravity-generator or etc.
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Arne
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Re: How do they cram 12 ships onto the Vindicator?
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2006, 07:26:07 pm »

If you watch bicycling races you'll see that people often glide behind the leader, there's a little 'suck' there. Since the leader doesn't have this it's unpopular to be the leader, sometimes a whole caravan of people will just slow to a crawl cuz on one wants to go ahead and pull.

A similar thing happens with boats. I kayak a bit. If you get behind a boat you can surf on it's wake, it's essentially a perpetual downhill so you can just sit there going like 10 knots or so. The wake is there anyways so it doesn't cost the boat anything.
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Re: How do they cram 12 ships onto the Vindicator?
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2006, 09:26:35 pm »

I'll say the bad word again:

In SC3 there are some movies which clearly show that the escort ships fly with the mothership instead of being docked. Of course the mothership in SC3 doesn't fly in Hyperspace though.
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Halleck
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Re: How do they cram 12 ships onto the Vindicator?
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2006, 03:50:12 am »

If you watch bicycling races you'll see that people often glide behind the leader, there's a little 'suck' there. Since the leader doesn't have this it's unpopular to be the leader, sometimes a whole caravan of people will just slow to a crawl cuz on one wants to go ahead and pull.

A similar thing happens with boats. I kayak a bit. If you get behind a boat you can surf on it's wake, it's essentially a perpetual downhill so you can just sit there going like 10 knots or so. The wake is there anyways so it doesn't cost the boat anything.
This effect also happens with birds, that's why they fly in "V" formations. It's all to save energy.

So, I think having other vessels ride on the vindicator's "hyperspace wake" would be pretty logical.

Also, we know that impulse drives are used for hyperspace propulision, since getting more "antimat thrusters" for the vindy makes you go faster in truespace and in hyperspace. So, the ships could be thrusting with their impulse drives to keep pace.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2006, 03:52:17 am by Halleck » Logged


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Shiver
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Re: How do they cram 12 ships onto the Vindicator?
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2006, 09:17:01 am »

Okay kids, you know that works on Earth because there's matter that causes resistance right? The object or person in the lead is "breaking" this resistance down a bit for whatever's immediately behind him. But space is vacuum, so I doubt tail-gating the ship in front of you makes flight any easier.
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Halleck
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Re: How do they cram 12 ships onto the Vindicator?
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2006, 10:15:21 am »

Okay kids, you know that works on Earth because there's matter that causes resistance right? The object or person in the lead is "breaking" this resistance down a bit for whatever's immediately behind him. But space is vacuum, so I doubt tail-gating the ship in front of you makes flight any easier.
This is hyperspace, not truespace; the rules are different.

For instance, you need to constantly thrust or you come to a stop. That's friction. In hyperspace!

This is, of course, not the case in sc2 truespace or in real-life space. So, I don't think we should be making any assumptions one way or the other about the rules of hyperspace other than what we can deduce from the game.
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Re: How do they cram 12 ships onto the Vindicator?
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2006, 04:10:44 am »

Remember also that the Mark I is a Precursor tug.  It might be designed to drag a large ship (or multiple small ones) through HS.
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Death 999
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Re: How do they cram 12 ships onto the Vindicator?
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2006, 07:58:31 am »

Some data:
- There are 12 slots.
- Size of the escort is irrelevant to this. A slot cannot contain 2 scouts, even if you could fit 6 scouts in the space occupied by 1 Avatar.
- Modules are irrelevant to this.
- Fuel use is independent of escorts.
- Speed is independent of escorts -- slower escorts are dragged along at the Vindy's speed.
- While the Vindicator is much larger than other ships, its frame is too thin to accommodate escorts within it.

Conclusion:
- There are 12  discrete locations in which ships can be berthed. These could be docking to external ports, or something to do with the Hyperspace field.

Supposition:
The 12 berths are vortices in the Vindy's hyperspace field. Ships can only travel with it if their hyperspace engines are nestled within these vortices (that is, some of the ship can extend outside... which is how an avatar can fit while 2 scouts cannot).

Wild speculation:
These berths are arranged in a dodecahedron.


Idea:
In a 'difficult mode' extension to UQM, the default escort capacity could be 8, upgradeable to 12 if you bought a special engine module. This would of course make you just a little bit slower...
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Re: How do they cram 12 ships onto the Vindicator?
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2006, 01:33:20 am »

How do they cram 12 ships onto the Vindicator?

Three words: "It's a game."

If you guys want to fit it into "reality" you've got bigger problems than 12 ships in a hyperspace bubble..

Why does the enemy always attack one ship at a time? Why are there asteroids and planets out in the middle of nowhere when dropping from hyperspace? Why can't I explore a solar system quicker by splitting up my fleet? etc.

Wink
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Re: How do they cram 12 ships onto the Vindicator?
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2006, 01:43:05 am »

Oh and one more thing.. When birds fly in a "V", or nascars tailgate one another it's called drafting. I do it when on a long highway trip. Pull behind a big rig, set the cruise control and relax. The trucker is litterally plowing through the air and providing less drag on my car. It actually does save a bit on fuel economy.

Perhaps hyperspace is full of nebulea dust and the big precursor ship is plowing the way?.. Grin
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Re: How do they cram 12 ships onto the Vindicator?
« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2006, 10:43:51 am »

Oh and one more thing.. When birds fly in a "V", or nascars tailgate one another it's called drafting. I do it when on a long highway trip. Pull behind a big rig, set the cruise control and relax. The trucker is litterally plowing through the air and providing less drag on my car. It actually does save a bit on fuel economy.
Sounds cool... as long as you don't wind up getting crushed because you're in his blind spot.  Grin
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