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Author Topic: Kohr - Ah Crew  (Read 15215 times)
2Bad
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Re: Kohr - Ah Crew
« Reply #45 on: July 11, 2006, 05:51:26 am »

Quote from the Ultronomicon:

"...The other Ur-Quan, meant to serve as manual laborers and soldiers, were optimized for strength and diligence in performing manual tasks, altered to function better as cooperative groups and to remain staunchly faithful to simple orders, with the Ur-Quan's natural tendency to genetically encoded racial memory greatly amplified."

Proof that the kohr-ah were altered to work together in groups...
« Last Edit: July 11, 2006, 05:58:59 am by 2Bad » Logged
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Re: Kohr - Ah Crew
« Reply #46 on: July 11, 2006, 09:23:33 am »

now now, if the brown Ur-Quan knew about this option, to alter their genetic code so they won't be so aggressive and loners, would they accept the process?

while it may seem like a good idea, it may raise some ethical questions, which are relevant even to the 'real world'.

is the Dnyarri's splitting of the Ur-Quan ethical? all in all the Ur-Quan benefitted from it; look how strong they are, and supposedly very techonologically-advanced.
and quite successful if you count half a galaxy enslaved and half perished.
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Re: Kohr - Ah Crew
« Reply #47 on: July 11, 2006, 06:00:15 pm »

now now, if the brown Ur-Quan knew about this option, to alter their genetic code so they won't be so aggressive and loners, would they accept the process?

I'm not even sure we can reasonably analyze this question; the Ur-Quan mindset really is totally alien, especially that of the browns, who we know the least about. Humans by nature are social beings, and even the most "antisocial" of us still seeks out some sort of companionship, even if it is just anonymous strangers halfway across the world on a message board about a 15-year-old computer game. Wink

The Ur-Quan, however, are very much antisocial by nature. Even though they were able to come together and form a coherent society, it was still only by a monumental force of will, and they valued their solitude even still. Do we even have any concept of how they would respond to being offered the equivalent of "genetic antidepressants"? It seems to go against everything about the Ur-Quan's innate state. Would they even consider it a viable possibility? It seems more likely that the technology, even if it were developed, would be banned out of safety concerns immediately; a "desensitized" Ur-Quan would be putting its life at stake any time it approached another member of its own species, since despite the fact that it could tolerate the proximity, the other Ur-Quan may not have undergone the process.

I think the most fascinating aspect of this discussion, however, is how much we're all thinking about the mindset of an entirely fictional race, which is based on the characteristics of humans who have suffered intense mental trauma and abuse. And yet... If it were actually a human being that had this sort of mindset, nobody would think twice about using this technology to cure them, because it runs so far counter to the way "normal" members of our society behave. There wouldn't be any ethical concerns, just a particularly disturbed individual that we have the capability of helping.

OK, enough rambling from me.
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Lance_Vader
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Re: Kohr - Ah Crew
« Reply #48 on: July 11, 2006, 10:08:24 pm »

now now, if the brown Ur-Quan knew about this option, to alter their genetic code so they won't be so aggressive and loners, would they accept the process?
Would the Yehat?  The Shofixti?  Not in a million years, and they're not nearly as solitary or aggressive as the Ur-Quan.
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Re: Kohr - Ah Crew
« Reply #49 on: July 11, 2006, 10:37:13 pm »

Ah, but there's a key difference. Nowhere does it say that the Shofixti nor the Yehat are loners. In fact, both had early societies organized into warrior clans, which are social groups by their nature. So in that case, an antisocial Shofixti or Yehat probably would be considered abnormal. Also, it's worth noting that despite warrior cultures, no other species is anywhere near as naturally agressive as the Ur-Quan, as even they themselves say that they had to rein in their killer instincts when dealing with the other Milleu members (save the Taalo). Even the Thraddash and Ilwrath can't be considered that agressive, as the former wages war mainly for fun (or at least, so it seems), and the latter had a long and peaceful history before turning viciously agressive (by both their own admission and the Pkunk's analysis of their past lives).
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Lukipela
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Re: Kohr - Ah Crew
« Reply #50 on: July 12, 2006, 09:38:38 am »

I don't think the little critters are even in the crew count. Say that you damage a Marauder until it has one green dot; obviously you should still be able to converse with it. And I believe the Dnyarri were specially engineered for a specific task - translation - and nothing else.

But as was pointed out, another subsentient species could be trained to work aboard the ship, not necessarily the TP.

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While for the Kzer-Za there *could* be slaves (though I doubt it), the Kohr-Ah's doctrine maintains that all other life must be annihilated.  In that sense, and considering the Ur-Quans don't like each other as evident from the text, I think the crew dots should be interperted as the vessel's integrity. Just like the Slylandro Probe.

It is established in the manuals that the Kzer-Za have slaves around to fly their small ships and work on the ship. The Kohr-Ah maintains that all life must be annihilated, so that it doesn't achieve sentience. They're not just killing cause they hate living things. They're killing because they are afraid that something will evolve that can control them. However, a sub-sentient creaure that cannot evolve, and is under their constant supervison aboard their ship would pose no direct threat to them. They could be cloning them all from one genetic code, minimizing genetic drift.

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Lastly, wb Lukipela Wink

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Re: Kohr - Ah Crew
« Reply #51 on: July 12, 2006, 07:07:31 pm »

Ah, but there's a key difference. Nowhere does it say that the Shofixti nor the Yehat are loners. In fact, both had early societies organized into warrior clans, which are social groups by their nature. So in that case, an antisocial Shofixti or Yehat probably would be considered abnormal. Also, it's worth noting that despite warrior cultures, no other species is anywhere near as naturally agressive as the Ur-Quan, as even they themselves say that they had to rein in their killer instincts when dealing with the other Milleu members (save the Taalo). Even the Thraddash and Ilwrath can't be considered that agressive, as the former wages war mainly for fun (or at least, so it seems), and the latter had a long and peaceful history before turning viciously agressive (by both their own admission and the Pkunk's analysis of their past lives).
This was kind of my point, actually.  What kind of reaction do you think you'd get from a Yehat if you told him you could make his species less aggressive and more calm and mellow?  It would be a wonder if he didn't react violently.  And if you get that reaction from a Yehat, how much worse would an Ur-Quan be?
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Re: Kohr - Ah Crew
« Reply #52 on: July 12, 2006, 07:42:18 pm »

Realsitically, not much worse; it really makes no difference what species is trying to kill you, just that SOMEONE is trying to kill you.

Then again, who knows. Isn't what you describe exactly what the Pkunk would have offered the Yehat? And we all know how that turned out, right?
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Re: Kohr - Ah Crew
« Reply #53 on: July 13, 2006, 06:12:29 am »

Quote from the Ultronomicon:

"...The other Ur-Quan, meant to serve as manual laborers and soldiers, were optimized for strength and diligence in performing manual tasks, altered to function better as cooperative groups and to remain staunchly faithful to simple orders, with the Ur-Quan's natural tendency to genetically encoded racial memory greatly amplified."

Proof that the kohr-ah were altered to work together in groups...

Ah, but unfortunately the Ultronomicon is not perfect Cry , nor completely inline with canon (but it's getting there). That statement was added by an editor based on speculations and inferences similar to the ones in this discussion. However, the dialogue and manuals give no definite answer on whether they were or were not altered to work together in groups. Cheers.
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Re: Kohr - Ah Crew
« Reply #54 on: July 13, 2006, 06:54:18 am »

I think that the Ultronomicon is as close to cannon as you can possibly get, without it being written by TFB, and in the absence of them clearing up the matter definitely I think we should consider the Ultronomicon as an authoritative source on the matter, as nowhere is there a mention of a "sub-sentient" slave race that serves the kohr-ah, except the talking pets who couldn't do any jobs, and since the crew are green and not grey, they should be considered sentient crew like all others (such that the syreen can steal them, though why you'd want kohr-ah on your ship, or mycons for that matter, or how they would survive in the atmosphere is beyond me, those crazy syreen), the only logical solution is that there are 42 kohr-ah on a marauder, with an officer captain in charge.
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Re: Kohr - Ah Crew
« Reply #55 on: July 13, 2006, 07:41:41 am »

I think that the Ultronomicon is as close to cannon as you can possibly get, without it being written by TFB, and in the absence of them clearing up the matter definitely I think we should consider the Ultronomicon as an authoritative source on the matter,

As close to cannon as you can get still doesn't make it cannon, sorry.

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as nowhere is there a mention of a "sub-sentient" slave race that serves the kohr-ah, except the talking pets who couldn't do any jobs, and since the crew are green and not grey, they should be considered sentient crew like all others

We don't know how subsentience works. Perhaps they are all hghly intelligent, but without the ability to retainb memories. Perhaps they are powerfully brainwashed, rememebering only their duties. Perhaps they are mindless drones, but retain just enough of a spark to be touched by the Syreens song.

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the only logical solution is that there are 42 kohr-ah on a marauder, with an officer captain in charge.

No, it is one of many possible solutions, and with no source material we have no way of confirming it.
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Re: Kohr - Ah Crew
« Reply #56 on: July 13, 2006, 10:01:08 pm »

I think that the Ultronomicon is as close to cannon as you can possibly get, without it being written by TFB, and in the absence of them clearing up the matter definitely I think we should consider the Ultronomicon as an authoritative source on the matter,

As close to cannon as you can get still doesn't make it cannon, sorry.

ARGH ARGH ARGH! Pet peeve attack: Canon is the word you're looking for. We're not shooting anyone with this information.

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We don't know how subsentience works. Perhaps they are all hghly intelligent, but without the ability to retainb memories. Perhaps they are powerfully brainwashed, rememebering only their duties. Perhaps they are mindless drones, but retain just enough of a spark to be touched by the Syreens song.

Or perhaps, as mentioned before, the Syreen call will work on any type of lifeform with intelligence, so long as it has the ability to actually eject itself from the airlock. The Probe's crew is unaffected because they seem to be screwed into sockets like lightbulbs, and don't have any appendages to use in order to remove themselves.

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the only logical solution is that there are 42 kohr-ah on a marauder, with an officer captain in charge.

No, it is one of many possible solutions, and with no source material we have no way of confirming it.

Indeed. If that was the *only* logical solution, this debate wouldn't have started in the first place.

A shame nobody thought to ask about this during one of the IRC interviews with TFB. Then again, who knows if they even thought about it much at all?
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Re: Kohr - Ah Crew
« Reply #57 on: July 14, 2006, 04:44:33 am »

A shame nobody thought to ask about this during one of the IRC interviews with TFB. Then again, who knows if they even thought about it much at all?

heheh so true, 56 posts later and I doubt TFB even thought about it enough to have a definitive answer in their heads, but it does make you wonder why they chose to use "crew" as a measure of hitpoints for ships, maybe it was just purely to be original and different from other games that used "hull", and allows for neat special weapons like the syreen crew steal.

And you all must admit this is the only decent debate going on in this forum at the moment.
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Re: Kohr - Ah Crew
« Reply #58 on: July 14, 2006, 05:27:42 am »

Then again, who knows. Isn't what you describe exactly what the Pkunk would have offered the Yehat? And we all know how that turned out, right?
And we know how they reacted when you even MENTIONED the Pkunk to them.  We also know that the Yehat shot down Pkunk ships on sight for years on this principle.  But, yes, it turned out all right in the end.
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Re: Kohr - Ah Crew
« Reply #59 on: July 14, 2006, 08:57:11 am »

ARGH ARGH ARGH! Pet peeve attack: Canon is the word you're looking for. We're not shooting anyone with this information.

My apologies. When using unfamiliar words in a foreign language, I tend to just copy what the last poster has written, instead of spellcecking them. Still, I did feel a bit unsure about that and I should have checked.

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Or perhaps, as mentioned before, the Syreen call will work on any type of lifeform with intelligence, so long as it has the ability to actually eject itself from the airlock. The Probe's crew is unaffected because they seem to be screwed into sockets like lightbulbs, and don't have any appendages to use in order to remove themselves.

This is possible as well. Seeing as crew is otherwise used to denote actual physically separate entities, I'd stil lthink that the Sly probe contains actual robots that handle maintenance (and perhaps collection of biologicals and other interesting things).
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