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Author Topic: War in the middle east  (Read 12010 times)
Zeep-Eeep
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War in the middle east
« on: July 26, 2006, 06:06:08 pm »

I find it odd there isn't a topic for this yet. As I understand it, Isreal and
Lebennon are shooting at each other. While this is alway a high-tension area,
it seems to have flared up in a nasty way.
Anyone from that area availible for comment? Perhaps
someone who can give an un-mediaed version of
what's going on?
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Re: War in the middle east
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2006, 07:27:38 pm »

well i'm israeli, and i may be a bit biased but i dont think that i am that much as to cloud my judgement.

ill give you the general feeling that's going on here lately:
that we are being terrorized and murdered, usually treated unfairly on the world media and generally misunderstood and misinterpreted. and i for one am beginning to get the feeling that peace is just an illusion.

all that set aside the latest conflict is a case of being fed up with Nassrala jibing and provocating us and most of us are feeling: "okay we are being bombed and a quarter of the country is in bomb-shelters but we are willing to pay the price as long as you (the IDF) remove that constant threat over our heads from the northern border."

oh and BTW Lebannon isn't shooting at us but the Hizballah. it's an important distinction to make since they are a terrorist organization rather than a legitimate country.

i hope that was clear version..
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Re: War in the middle east
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2006, 08:23:36 pm »

I'm really disappointed with the Palestinians.  You'd think after so long they'd realize that the surrounding arab nations are their real enemies, not the Israelis.  Those arab nations and their own leaders have seen the Palestinians as nothing more than pawns in their game, and care nothing for their losses, as long as they weaken the Israelis or take up some Israeli resources in their fights.  I'm rooting for the Palestinian people, and I want to see them get fed up with their own leaders using them like tools.

I'm also rooting for the Israelis, but I'm not as worried about them.  They have become such a military powerhouse that they will be wiped out before they let another nation subjugate them, and all their surrounding enemies don't have the firepower to do that.  That's why they lost the Gaza Strip.  Because of their OWN aggression.

It's a messy situation, and I don't think there's enough people who genuinely want to be at peace with the Israelis.  Likely they'll be fighting 'til doomsday.
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Re: War in the middle east
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2006, 09:57:12 pm »

Anyone from that area availible for comment? Perhaps
someone who can give an un-mediaed version of
what's going on?

Meh, pointlenss question.
Ask an Isreali what he thinks about it and he'll say "They're shooting at us, we're only defending ourselves".
Ask a Lebanease guy (or a Palestinian, or whoever) and he'll say "They're shooting at us, we're only defending ourselves"..

The Middle East is a silly place, I doubt even the people dying and killing have any idea what's the point of this conflict.
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Zeep-Eeep
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Re: War in the middle east
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2006, 12:29:40 am »

Whether they have a good "big picture" view of the situation
I trust their views over the much-filtered North American media.
The middle east has been a boiling pot for some time, especially
the past 50 years. It's very unfortunate that there are so many people
who are fighting. Peace may be possible, but I think a
lot of changes, plaing-field leveling changes, must
be made first.
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Re: War in the middle east
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2006, 12:53:59 am »

The reason why Israel left Lebanon is because there is the UN Resolution 1559 that says that Israel should vacate Lebanon and Hezbollah should disarm. Well Israel left Lebanon and Hezbollah didn’t disarm and the UN did nothing to enforce the resolution. Actually Hezbollah did the opposite and went on the offensive by kidnapping Israeli solders and launching rocket attacks on Israeli towns. To make it worse there is substantial evidence that Hezbollah is being supplied by Iran and Syria. The attacks on Lebanon were aimed (at least originally) at getting the kidnapped solders back. This is evidenced by them taking out all means of travel out of the area they thought the solders were in, by taking out all the bridges airports and ports.
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Re: War in the middle east
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2006, 01:26:07 am »

Yeah, that region is going to be at war on and off until the end of time. The only solution that leads to any foreseeable end in sight would be if Israel migrated its people right out there. Granted that many countries have a history of purging jews for no good reason, but America does not. Nor does Canada. Australia is a nice place to live as well. Don't give me that "it's been their land for thousands of years" shtick - I know that already. However, the Israelis are keeping themselves in a precarious position for as long as they stay in an area surrounded entirely by those lovable, wacky Muslims.

Oh hell, of course no one's going to listen to an idea that might actually get something done. Enjoy my $0.02 anyway.
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Re: War in the middle east
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2006, 01:37:39 am »

My opinion of this sounds like it is shared by most of the rest of the world: Israel was correct to have responded to this, but the response, as usual, seems a bit heavy handed.  I can understand shutting down travel out of the country (sure as hell wouldn't want those soldiers getting moved to Syria) and attempting to destroy Hezbollah 'units' in the south, but the collateral damage seems rather wanton.  Why hit the suburbs of Beirut, for instance?  For trying to single out Hezbollah, they seem to be doing pretty well on the whole infrastructure of the country.

I'm disappointed (though not suprised) by our (me being in the US) administration's slowness to react.  I'm also ashamed that the Democrats have backed the administration 100% on this.  Grow some balls please.  I also have to wonder what this unqualified support for Israel's activities means for our occupation in Iraq...

One question for the class:  I've been hearing alot about the dangers of a wider war.  Could anyone illustrate exactly what sequence(s) of events would broaden the scope of this conflict?
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Re: War in the middle east
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2006, 02:25:33 am »

Here's my 2 cents, I hope I don't hurt anyone's feelings, I like you all Smiley

I think that Israel uses excessive force. I don't like how it deals with democratically elected governments (Gaza, Lebanon). Namely, by assassinating Hamas + Hezbolla leaders, taking Hamas leaders prisoner, and killing some of their civilian supporters. Really, is there no other way, even if you don't like those people ? This way you're pissing off the people who elected them.

I also think that Hezbolla is a organization that should not exist, but unfortunately it does. I don't believe that bombing the crap out of them is going to make much of a difference, cause if Lebanon can be rebuilt, so can Hezbolla rebuild itself.  At best, Israel buys itself some time. With Lebanon economically crippled, it won't be able to reserve much money to acquire weapons for the next 20 years to come. I think that, if Israel would wait for those 20 years, and not bomb Lebanon, the country would slowly have become more peaceful anyway, cause peace and prosperity erodes away such organizations.

I also don't understand why the Palestinians had elected Hamas, because they live in a situation where they are largely dependent on Israel, whether they like it or not. I suppose it was a protest vote against Israeli dominance in the region, rather than an intentional vote fr war ... I think at least.

I also think that Israel's position in the middle east is weaker than it used to be, if only because of increased population in the neighbouring countries compared to 30 or even 50 years ago. Also, heavy dependency on middle-eastern oil lead to world-wide economic backlashes because of this "war", or "incursion", which makes this move of Israel irresponsible in economic sense. Thus, politically and strategically it's in a weaker position. Although ... on the other hand it does have nuclear bombs.

I also think that this use of excessive force gives a lot of palestinians, lebanese and arabs in neighbouring states a sense of vulnerability - and on the longer term, this might lead to increased military spending, and perhaps also increased terrorist activity, so that the arabs can show Israel in turn that their opinion also counts. Maybe they extend this towards the US too, cause the US support Israeli actions. I'm afraid this might happen and lead to a (slight) worsening of long-term instability. I doubt it'll lead to a regional war, though, the killing and inflicted damages aren't high enough to warrant that yet, I think (although that's in the eye of the beholder)..

Finally, I think it's stupid that the "international community" has to pay for the damages done by Israel. Why should my tax-money be used for paying for their (Hezbollah + Israel) inability to deal with problems like responsible people ?! It's no peanuts, it's about billions of euros.

Btw., I am also repeatedly amazed by the (imo) simplistic views that israeli and US leaders expose for all the world to see. But, they have the big guns, so they can afford to be blunt and ignore the more moderate voices. I consider myself lucky that I live in a peaceful country. On the other hand, I also repeatedly remind myself that US actions in WW2 were very cool (most of them anyway). Also, Israel is a small country, surrounded by countries and populations that have a generally hostile attitude to its existence, even after all those years - I find it hard to imagine how it is to live in such a situation, maybe I'd do the same. Who knows, perhaps all of this will work out on the longer run, but sofar I'm pretty sceptical.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2006, 03:08:50 am by GeomanNL » Logged
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Re: War in the middle east
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2006, 03:45:25 am »

...
Finally, I think it's stupid that the "international community" has to pay for the damages done by Israel. Why should my tax-money be used for paying for their (Hezbollah + Israel) inability to deal with problems like responsible people ?! It's no peanuts, it's about billions of euros.

Haha!  Funny you should mention this.  I've long wondered why my tax money is going to Israel.  I hope noone gets too upset with me, but I have to say this:

*clears throat*

The formation of Israel is our worst foreign policy decision of the 20th Century.

It is a  distabilizing force in the region (as recent events have shown us), and I fail to see what benefit its presence ever offered us.  We continue to hurl guns and money at the country (and now precision bombs at an accelerated pace) despite the fact that it runs counter to our other interests in the region.  I find it odd that it is the pinnacle of 'freedom' in the area yet we have to bankroll its very existence.  And here I am in the 'land of the free' where the reigning party emphasizes self reliance and pulling one's self up by their bootstraps, so to speak (if that can still be said to be the case with the GOP, but perhaps that is another thread Wink).

Not to mention that as an American it doesn't sit very well with me that the country basically exists solely because of a single ethnic group.  That just seems to contradict my democratic sensibilities of freedom and multiculturalism.  And yeah, some are going to come back and say Israel has Christians, Muslims, Druze, etc...but lets be honest.  The Star of David sitting right in the middle of the flag, and of course the founding purpose was to have a 'Jewish homeland'..  Seems like a clear endorsement to me.  Alright I'm getting pretty far astray here...sorry.
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Re: War in the middle east
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2006, 05:17:30 am »

One question for the class:  I've been hearing alot about the dangers of a wider war.  Could anyone illustrate exactly what sequence(s) of events would broaden the scope of this conflict?

Here's a scenario. The Danes start making claims for Skåne (a part of Sweden we used to fight about all the time) by using satirical cartoons. Then the Norwegians taunts us with more 'Sweden-Jokes' than usual. It culminates with a Finnish sauna cult trying to force us to spend 1hr a day in the sauna, aswell as running around nude in the middle of the winter. This is the last drop, and our war insticts comes to life after having been supressed for nearly 200 years.

This would be no stranger to me than the situation down in the middle east.
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Re: War in the middle east
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2006, 06:51:15 am »

One question for the class:  I've been hearing alot about the dangers of a wider war.  Could anyone illustrate exactly what sequence(s) of events would broaden the scope of this conflict?

Here are some scenarios that some may fear but I really don’t.

Iran finally develops a nuke then gives it to Hezbollah for use against Israel.  The nuke goes off in Israel and they respond in kind against Syria and Iran and suddenly a large portion of the world’s oil supply is radioactive.

Syria and Iran decide to send “piece keeping” forces to Lebanon at the same time Egypt decides to send “piece keeping” forces to the Gaza Strip. They end up to being staging grounds for an outright assault on Israel. Israel being outnumbered decides to use nukes to even the odds. The unfounded fear of all oil in the Middle East being radioactive causes a boycott of all the oil from the Middle East causing massive oil shortages. 

Aliens (as in outer space) see the Middle East in turmoil and decided to start selling advance weapons to the Middle East to turn a profit. Unfortunately the Aliens sell them Anti-Matter weapons. The weapons go off and then the third planet from the sun is mars.
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Re: War in the middle east
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2006, 10:36:37 am »

Shiver:
to tell you the truth  - sometimes it sounds really tempting to move to another country and some israelis do so from time to time. however you do have to keep one thing in mind: the holocaust. yeah, i know, it has been discussed to death but the simple fact is that after a people go through the experience of being slaughtered in the millions with no help in sight you tend to trust only yourself and not depend on the charity of others which is what we basically are when wer'e a minority in some other country - in the end the population counts.

Baltar:
the reason we bomb beirut is the same reason the US bombed afganistahn - they knowingly harbour terrorists and allow them freedom of action - when the USSR stationed nukes in cuba wouldn't it have shared the blame if the USSR fired those missiles?

GeomanNL:
the hamas leaders in the gaza strip that are killed are those that our equivalent of the FBI have solid proof against them that they are about to commit a terrorist attack.

Baltar No. 2:
i for one see it more as a moral decision, and as for being a country based on a single ethnic group, well, see my answer to shiver, and basically, there isnt anywhere else we feel safe...

Everyone:
and finally, i think just about everyone in Israel REALLY wants peace (except for a few extremists - but they exist everywhere) and we are sick and tired of all this - we just want a normal life but you know what - we aren't getting any. we just get the feeling wev'e tried everything and nothing works.
Backing out of Lebannon and letting the Hizballah erode due to peacful tiding? done that, they only got 10 times stronger and kept harassing us.
Backing out of the Gaza strip and letting them deal with themselves?
done that, they only continued terrorizing us.
What more can we do? back out of israel altogether? not possible  - see my answer to shiver.
and here we are in this mess...
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Re: War in the middle east
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2006, 12:20:10 pm »

I can’t really think of any real acceptable way to solve this situation. But I can think of plenty of unacceptable things Israel can do.

1. Detonate nukes in the upper atmosphere to have only the EMP hit the areas where the terrorists are positioned. This would permanently destroy all their electrical equipment. Making the terrorists unable to communicate or use GPS for positioning of the rockets.

2. Cripple the economies of the countries funding the terrorist, with strikes on power plants and information centers.

3. Set up pig farms in a perimeter around Israel.

4. Inform the terrorists that you have started to coat your bullets and missiles with pig fat.

5.  Declare a 10 mile dead mans land and kill everyone in it after a certain date, by setting up automated guns and mine fields.

I actually think 4 would be very effective and not that unacceptable. The rest would make the UN pass a resolution that would do nothing or just cause more harm then good.
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Re: War in the middle east
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2006, 01:49:50 pm »

"the hamas leaders in the gaza strip that are killed are those that our equivalent of the FBI have solid proof against them that they are about to commit a terrorist attack."

Sure, but it's a democratically elected leader, one can't treat such a person as some average criminal and sentence him to death. While Israelis might find it a justified action, others at the receiving end could interpret that as an act of war. Therefore, imo, other methods should've been tried first, but alas, the current Israeli government wasn't elected for its diplomatic skills, was it Wink
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