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Author Topic: War in the middle east  (Read 12047 times)
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Re: War in the middle east
« Reply #45 on: July 29, 2006, 02:03:27 am »

Suicide bombers can be stopped by walls fences and a military, little rockets cannot as of yet.

actually, taking down rockets, and even shells is feasable today, using the Nautilous, aka Sky Guard, a joint American-Israeli development.
even when I was in the army some 6 years ago there were successful tests, the main problem being to minimize the weapon's size from a building to a truck.

I'm sure you can find better conceptual drawings or even real photos if you look good enough.
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Re: War in the middle east
« Reply #46 on: July 29, 2006, 02:47:22 am »

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I personally believe Iran is buying time for itself with this conflict, just enough to finish its nuclear agenda.
by the time everything settles down here they'll have nuclear warheads

I agree on both points. The question is whether or not Admenijad (I think that is how his name is spelled) is a true believer, or just someone who finds religion a useful tool for staying powerful.


Quote
actually, taking down rockets, and even shells is feasable today, using the Nautilous, aka Sky Guard, a joint American-Israeli development.

Cool stuff. I've seen a lot of these prototypes on TV, but I don't think any will be on the battlefield for a year or two at least (though maybe current events will pick up the pace a little.)


Quote
I'm sure you can find better conceptual drawings or even real photos if you look good enough.

Yea, here is a concept of one that functioned back in the early '90s:



Sorry folks, just trying to lighten up things a little. Smiley
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Re: War in the middle east
« Reply #47 on: July 29, 2006, 11:41:46 am »

GeomanNL:
"You're forgetting suburban residential areas, factories, villages of farmers, shops, vehicles carrying refugees.

There's one other point btw. People mention that Syria and Iran are the real culprits. So why doesn't Israel attack those to create a long and lasting peace in the Middle East? Or is Lebanon just practice in preparation for the real work later on?
I'm pretty sure that you don't like the idea of such a big war, so you're not going to solve anything; you're just living in another illusion that you've accomplished something by neutralizing hizbollah.
Also, I can imagine how the current government is going to occupy southern Lebanon, and that in 10 years from now, another government with another agenda, will vacate it again, and the whole process will start all over again."

suburban residential areas of HZ personnel, villages of farmers in south Lebanon that launch rockets and whose farmers were warned 36 hours before to get out of there, vehicles carrying katyusha missile, shops which allow the terrorists to hide there because they know we won't knowingly hit civilians until we gave the inhabitants of the shops a warning before we bombed it, or factories in which the northern Lebanese used to work while they sat on the fence while their countrymen attacked us (and I'm talking before the kidnappings)

as for a clear cut war against Syria and Iran - I think you know where that can go to, evidentially both Syria and Iran don't want to go down that path ,(at least for now) and we certainly don't want to either. However, you cannot sit on your butt while being harassed and provoked generally for six years - nobody would stand for it. This is the lesser evil. as for going in and out forever - well if Lebanon would have done it's share the first time - progressed to the south border and held it, or if the UN force would have done it's job it wouldn't have gotten to this - so if they will kindly do their job NOW (Lebanon and the UN) this won't have to be repeated.

DS:
"Your soldiers are a modern army, fighting in the open. Who stands a better chance, them or your civilians? We're not talking about perfect solutions here, just something that would produce less casualties and stop the rockets."

great, so instead of having civvies dying daily we'll go back to soldiers dying daily and then the world will say, "okay, but what do you want, you ARE occupying foreign territory", and besides south Lebanon is most definitely NOT the open - it's as suited for guerilla warfare as can get.

as for the count being low, even if it were 20 children the way I think the world sees it is "twenty children have been killed - how horrifying!" and a week later they forget about while seeing thousands of people being forcefully evacuated and then hearing about them periodically creates a bigger impression. mind you, however, I most certainly do not think that is the better option (children killed that is) I'm just saying the world reacts to it in a much harsher fashion and wouldn't have allowed it (not to mention the fact that I think that this method would have created just as many casualties).

"So are you saying that Hezbollah or Hamas are firing rockets from Gaza? How many exactly (my impression was that most everything was coming out of southern Lebanon, but maybe that is wrong). "

usually at least twice a day before the current mess in Lebanon but since even the Israeli media coverage of that dropped since then it looks like they stepped it down a bit until they can get some decent effect. Besides, even one a day is enough to paralyze and traumatize a whole city (which is what happens).

"When french muslims rioted en masse in french streets across the nation, not much happened to them. I think that is a big example of Europe's current cultural state."

you're forgetting that they compose roughly a sixth of the population and that they have all the Arab countries backing them - try to imagine what would have happened if a bunch of young Muslim rioters would have been shot down by a nervous French policeman who thought he saw them holding guns? You saw what went on when a newspaper posted caricatures (CARICATURES, for crying out loud!), the blood went to head of the collective Islam, and they attacked embassies and what not. Can you see the Jewish world responding in such a fashion? Why, just now there was a Muslim who gunned down pregnant Jewish women in Seattle! Do you see us attacking embassies?   

"Where did it land (I haven't watched the news yet today?)".

In Afula, it carried a 100 kg explosive warhead and it's called an improved Fag'er 5 with a range of 100 km

DS (to draxas):
" Yes, but some territories in the west bank were left occupied. You have to go cold turkey to give the impression you are no longer occupying those places. Then expand that fence that Sharon was building. Request that the UN help rebuild Palestinian infrastructure so that they are no longer dependent on Israeli (as they'll no longer be allowed in).

Suicide bombers can be stopped by walls fences and a military, little rockets cannot as of yet."

After we evacuated Gaza and we got all those missiles flying over our heads for fun you just want us to evacuate the west bank?? So we can have the fun of getting more of those?? and as for the fence, it cannot stop the suicide bombers, the best it can do is slow down their pace a bit, every time we close the passes after a bombing the UN and Palestinians start shouting "inhumane, inhumane!" and then we open it again and then another suicide bomber sneaks in such as a Palestinian woman who said the reason the metal detector was beeping is because she had a platinum implant in her leg and once she got through she blew herself up! (a real incident BTW).
Those "little" rockets are like daily mortar fire on the cities of Shderot, Ashkelon and the whole area - they are not something to belittle.

"Do you really think Hezbollah cares if Israel is angry, that they can be scared into submission?"

no, but they can be damaged in such a manner that it would take them a couple of years to rebuild, and in the meantime the Lebanese and the UN will be able to do their duty (which is not to say they really will).

"But Iran can't fire at the US, we're too far away."

You're probably not aware of this but Iran IS developing long range missiles that can reach anywhere in the US, so I wouldn't be very calm about it if I were you.

"Terrorist groups aren't developing nukes. A country would have to give them such firepower, and then it would be toast itself"

Iran gave HZ long range missiles capable of landing anywhere is Israel and launched from anywhere in Lebanon and they are suspected to have given them chemical warheads, what's to stop them from giving them such a missile with nuclear armament once they have the nukes?

Censored:
actually i think the Nautilos program was canceled some time ago but i may be wrong.

DS (to censored):

LOL, now we only need an utwig shield over cities that provide us with electricity every time a missile hits the shield since we already have shofixti-like suicide bombers Wink
edited: actually, i think i got it! get the whole area to listen to the original quasi-space theme until they are totally and utterly calm and with a zenlike disposition!  Smiley
« Last Edit: July 29, 2006, 03:54:11 pm by distant watcher » Logged
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Re: War in the middle east
« Reply #48 on: July 29, 2006, 05:40:07 pm »

Quote
great, so instead of having civvies dying daily we'll go back to soldiers dying daily and then the world will say, "okay, but what do you want, you ARE occupying foreign territory", and besides south Lebanon is most definitely NOT the open - it's as suited for guerilla warfare as can get.

That's if you had soldiers who are patrolling hostile cities. You would need to form a frontline, out in the open.


Quote
mind you, however, I most certainly do not think that is the better option (children killed that is) I'm just saying the world reacts to it in a much harsher fashion and wouldn't have allowed it (not to mention the fact that I think that this method would have created just as many casualties).

Again, if those displaced were compensated, and if powerplants, fuel depots and other infrastructural resources were not bombed into oblivion, and if both Gaza and the West Bank were completely cut loose, the outcry might not be very far from what you are getting now. You trade land and lives, to get land and some higher degree of safety.


Quote
usually at least twice a day before the current mess in Lebanon but since even the Israeli media coverage of that dropped since then it looks like they stepped it down a bit until they can get some decent effect. Besides, even one a day is enough to paralyze and traumatize a whole city (which is what happens).

Also, I don't think those rockets were nearly as powerful or accurate as what is coming out of lebanon (the Gaza rockets look sort of home-made.)


Quote
you're forgetting that they compose roughly a sixth of the population and that they have all the Arab countries backing them - try to imagine what would have happened if a bunch of young Muslim rioters would have been shot down by a nervous French policeman who thought he saw them holding guns? You saw what went on when a newspaper posted caricatures (CARICATURES, for crying out loud!), the blood went to head of the collective Islam, and they attacked embassies and what not. Can you see the Jewish world responding in such a fashion? Why, just now there was a Muslim who gunned down pregnant Jewish women in Seattle! Do you see us attacking embassies?

Actually, it is a tenth. If France has a population of about 45 million, than that's 4.5 million-- three quarters of Israel's population. Someone please correct me if any of these figures are off.


Quote
In Afula, it carried a 100 kg explosive warhead and it's called an improved Fag'er 5 with a range of 100 km

Hmm yea, I saw that last night. It did crash into a farmfield though, so it might not be very accurate. Another question is, how many do they really have of these larger rockets, and how long does it take them to get them ready to fire (can they be put on the back of a pick-up truck or do they need bigger transportation?) Also, are they big enough to be shot down by Patriot 2's?


Quote
After we evacuated Gaza and we got all those missiles flying over our heads for fun you just want us to evacuate the west bank?? So we can have the fun of getting more of those?? and as for the fence, it cannot stop the suicide bombers, the best it can do is slow down their pace a bit

A fence, with troops backing it up, and eventually a policy that people cannot enter Israel from these formerly occupied territories. The world is a rich place, I'm sure it can help the Palestinians achieve economic indepence from Israel, if it means a lasting peace. But separation is the only solution at this point, methinks. There is just too much hate for coexistence to be possible.


Quote
Those "little" rockets are like daily mortar fire on the cities of Shderot, Ashkelon and the whole area - they are not something to belittle.

I said "little" because Patriot 2's can take a shot at large rockets like SCUDs, but little rockets provide a target too small to be shot down. Also, little rockets can be used en masse and more easily hidden and more quickly deployed. Thus a lot of little rockets can do what a few big ones cannot-- by-pass your defenses unchecked. The only things that would have a shot at it are the l.a.s.e.r. based weapons Censored brought up, but those are not currently deployed. But if it makes you feel better (which is doubtful,) Hezbollah also seems to have some larger rockets.


Quote
no, but they can be damaged in such a manner that it would take them a couple of years to rebuild, and in the meantime the Lebanese and the UN will be able to do their duty (which is not to say they really will).

Highly doubtful, they will just retreat further underground and resurface as soon as the coast is clear. In fact, it almost seems like they want to draw you into a fight. It probably helps their recruiting efforts.


Quote
You're probably not aware of this but Iran IS developing long range missiles that can reach anywhere in the US, so I wouldn't be very calm about it if I were you.

So is North Korea, but their missile tech is further along (though they probably share it with Iran) and they seem to be much closer to us geographically. It will be a long while (if ever) before Iran can hit the US (we're talking big ICBMs here.)

Also, the US has been through the Cold War and the most recent Gulf War (Iraqi Freedom.) The threat of total destruction from the CW makes it harder for us to get worked up over threats. The war in Iraq has shown (and continues to show) us the price of direct interference in the middle east. Right now, I think most Americans are asking "How do we get out?" and not so much "How do we get this thing three times bigger?"


Quote
Iran gave HZ long range missiles capable of landing anywhere is Israel and launched from anywhere in Lebanon and they are suspected to have given them chemical warheads, what's to stop them from giving them such a missile with nuclear armament once they have the nukes?

Because there are vast differences in the response you get based on what ordinance you use. If they continue using conventional ordinance, you'll continue to do what you're doing now. If they use chemical warheads, and Israelis die by the hundreds, you will certainly take the fight to them directly (Iran) with conventional and maybe chemical weapons of your own. If they use nukes, you will nuke them back, and they will die (not just the terrorists now, the whole government, and much of the populace of Iran.)


Quote
actually, i think i got it! get the whole area to listen to the original quasi-space theme until they are totally and utterly calm and with a zenlike disposition!

Just as long as nobody gets a hold of the Kzer-Za theme-- that could be used to scare entire nations into submission. Smiley
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Re: War in the middle east
« Reply #49 on: July 29, 2006, 07:10:36 pm »

"That's if you had soldiers who are patrolling hostile cities. You would need to form a frontline, out in the open."

And then you would have a series of outposts which would get pounded continually and then soldiers will die regularly...

"Again, if those displaced were compensated, and if powerplants, fuel depots and other infrastructural resources were not bombed into oblivion, and if both Gaza and the West Bank were completely cut loose, the outcry might not be very far from what you are getting now."

I think that's a matter of personal opinion - I think the world would probably look at it as a matter of principle (taking over land) rather than simply looking at the financial side of it. plus, you are ignoring the fact that such a move mill most certainly not go quietly and they're sure to be many casualties on both sides.

"Also, I don't think those rockets were nearly as powerful or accurate as what is coming out of Lebanon (the Gaza rockets look sort of home-made.)"

They are but it doesn't really matter - one rocket is enough, we're talking about short distances here and a city is a relatively large target - even if you lob a rocket that lands in an empty park you achieved your goal - terror.

"Hmm yea, I saw that last night. It did crash into a farmfield though, so it might not be very accurate. Another question is, how many do they really have of these larger rockets, and how long does it take them to get them ready to fire (can they be put on the back of a pick-up truck or do they need bigger transportation?) Also, are they big enough to be shot down by Patriot 2's?"

Errr, we're going into technical issues here that I don't really know about, but the point is the range - it is large enough to be shot from beyond Beirut.

"A fence, with troops backing it up, and eventually a policy that people cannot enter Israel from these formerly occupied territories. The world is a rich place, I'm sure it can help the Palestinians achieve economic indepence from Israel, if it means a lasting peace. But separation is the only solution at this point, methinks. There is just too much hate for coexistence to be possible."

And then the Palestinians would build up armaments while lobbing more missiles at us all the time and then in the end we would end up with a double HZ!

"Highly doubtful, they will just retreat further underground and resurface as soon as the coast is clear. In fact, it almost seems like they want to draw you into a fight. It probably helps their recruiting efforts."

a) you're forgetting that HZ is not El-Qaida - it has training camps, bunkers and TV stations in easy striking distance that require some extra pounding
b) it's not recruits that they need, it's money.

"Because there are vast differences in the response you get based on what ordinance you use. If they continue using conventional ordinance, you'll continue to do what you're doing now. If they use chemical warheads, and Israelis die by the hundreds, you will certainly take the fight to them directly (Iran) with conventional and maybe chemical weapons of your own. If they use nukes, you will nuke them back, and they will die (not just the terrorists now, the whole government, and much of the populace of Iran.)"

if don't think they really care about it so much, after all we ARE talking about the government that encouraged their people to act as human flesh walls when Iraq invaded and when they turned tables and started invading Iraq and we are talking about the people of Iran who actually did so - this looks to me like a nation of fanatics who attribute nil value to their lives.

Warning: Light headed text ahead!
As long as they don't use the kor-ah theme - that would just send them running  Smiley
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Re: War in the middle east
« Reply #50 on: July 30, 2006, 05:23:34 am »

Well, I guess we'll just have to see how things go for a while. It seems like every few days something new happens in this conflict, which changes the situation in a significant way. Many of the assumptions we are making right now could be proven to be wrong in as little as a week or two.
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Re: War in the middle east
« Reply #51 on: July 30, 2006, 07:08:30 pm »

Here's somthing interesting that may (or may not) be relevant to this discussion...I'm guessing not but, you never know..

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/07/060727-book-psalms.html
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Re: War in the middle east
« Reply #52 on: August 05, 2006, 11:00:55 pm »

Here is a very interesting and informative article. It's a bit long but well-worth the time reading it.
I highly recommend taking a look, it may benefit the discussion - though it touchs everything but the Israeli-Lebanon conflict.

http://www.freedoms.calebflerk.com/hararispeech.htm
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Re: War in the middle east
« Reply #53 on: August 10, 2006, 07:11:59 pm »

I think that Israel is hoping that some one will sneak into Jerusalem to fire some of those non-guided missiles, and *accidentally* blowup the Dome of the Rock so they can replace it with a temple.

I probably should not say that but I will any way.
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Re: War in the middle east
« Reply #54 on: August 10, 2006, 07:22:50 pm »

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I probably should not say that but I will any way.

You're right. It accomplishes very little.
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Re: War in the middle east
« Reply #55 on: August 10, 2006, 08:40:41 pm »

XRT-14
Quote
think that Israel is hoping that some one will sneak into Jerusalem to fire some of those non-guided missiles, and *accidentally* blowup the Dome of the Rock so they can replace it with a temple.

I probably should not say that but I will any way. "


if that was wishful thinking then one might as well wish for every bit of land occupied by jews in israel to be transferred to the other side of the globe as far away from arabs as possible... Grin
and if it wasnt... well, let's just say that even if Nassralla himself were to blow up the dome just about all the arabs would have blamed some kind of israeli conspiration...

Lukipela:
you know, after reading the whole "cool comic booklets" thread in one go i was a bit suprised that i didn't see you on this thread Wink
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Re: War in the middle east
« Reply #56 on: August 10, 2006, 09:07:18 pm »

Lukipela:
you know, after reading the whole "cool comic booklets" thread in one go i was a bit suprised that i didn't see you on this thread Wink

Well, by the time I had time to read through the thread, it had shifted from opinions on the conflict to a circlejerk where everyone told others about their brilliant idea for solving the conflict, and some chatter about how to shoot down missiles.. Neither of which really interested me.
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Re: War in the middle east
« Reply #57 on: August 10, 2006, 09:13:31 pm »

Lukipela:
and your opinion is...?
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Re: War in the middle east
« Reply #58 on: August 12, 2006, 08:40:49 pm »

Lukipela:
and your opinion is...?

My first opinion is that you should always use quotes. It might seem like a minor thing, but when you're used to quotes, that "" thing really makes it hard to distinguish what is your and what is someone elses.

My opinion on the war? Well,  both Lebanon and the Hezbollah were in violation of the treaty the U.N brokered. And the kidnapping of the soldiers was an act of war. The Israeli response was the logical conclusion. Whilst I feel that the Israeli atack on Hezbollah is justified, I still do not agree with all their methods. From their point of view, it is important to minimize casualties, and airstrikes are the best way to go. However, airstrikes leave room for a lot of mistakes, many of which have severly hurt their cause.

So, in short. Yes to war, no to the current strategy which leaves room for to many mistakes.

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Re: War in the middle east
« Reply #59 on: August 12, 2006, 09:29:52 pm »

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My opinion on the war? Well,  both Lebanon and the Hezbollah were in violation of the treaty the U.N brokered. And the kidnapping of the soldiers was an act of war. The Israeli response was the logical conclusion. Whilst I feel that the Israeli atack on Hezbollah is justified, I still do not agree with all their methods. From their point of view, it is important to minimize casualties, and airstrikes are the best way to go. However, airstrikes leave room for a lot of mistakes, many of which have severly hurt their cause.

So, in short. Yes to war, no to the current strategy which leaves room for to many mistakes.

yeah well, in the end it did end up in airstrikes not being enough and we had to go back into lebanon "sad smile".... i just hope this round would end like the last one was supposed to (with the lebanese army occupying the border...
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