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Topic: Tactics and strategy of SC ships (Read 41322 times)
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Valaggar
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Yes, except if the fight is in a nebula. Maybe that's with the Battle in Draco - I seem to recall a nebula by this name, though I'm not sure.
As to Point Defense - it only shoots threats, including your own missiles, because they also have the potential to turn back and damage your Cruiser. So they won't do any harm.
Also worth of note are stalemate situations in two cases:
1) Umgah phalanx. If you try to outflank it, it will slowly wrap around into a schiltrom. You will then have to besiege the Umgah until they starve - and with their advanced biotechnology, this will last a vERY LONG time.
2)Utwig continuously-shielding ship
Paradoxally, this is less of a stalemate since you can:
a) Attack with Blazers
b) Attack with short bursts of laser
c) Limpet the Jugger until it is no more any harm
d)* Ram the Jugger and send it to a nearby asteroid/planet
* - Are ship collisions realistic? I mean, do ships damage when they collide with each other? I think yes, since we think of a real combat situation.
e) I imagine that the absorbtion shield is not perfect. Besides its incapability to defend against large quantities of concentrated kinetic energy (e.g. Blazers, planets) - which means that you can concentrate your kinetic fire on one spot on the Jugger - probably small quantities of damage still break through, eventually wearing off the ship.
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Draxas
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1) Umgah phalanx. If you try to outflank it, it will slowly wrap around into a schiltrom. You will then have to besiege the Umgah until they starve - and with their advanced biotechnology, this will last a vERY LONG time.
Or use a ship that can pierce the antimatter cone with its projectiles. The Old Alliance Broodhomes and Penetrators should make short work of them (as well as the possibility of teleporting a Skiff inside the formation). The New Alliance could wipe them out with the aformentioned Penetrators, or tractor them out of formation one by one with an Avatar to be picked off by other ships at their leisure. This is why this tactic died with the pike.
2)Utwig continuously-shielding ship
Paradoxally, this is less of a stalemate since you can:
a) Attack with Blazers
b) Attack with short bursts of laser
c) Limpet the Jugger until it is no more any harm
d)* Ram the Jugger and send it to a nearby asteroid/planet
* - Are ship collisions realistic? I mean, do ships damage when they collide with each other? I think yes, since we think of a real combat situation.
e) I imagine that the absorbtion shield is not perfect. Besides its incapability to defend against large quantities of concentrated kinetic energy (e.g. Blazers, planets) - which means that you can concentrate your kinetic fire on one spot on the Jugger - probably small quantities of damage still break through, eventually wearing off the ship.
A few marines could easily terrorize a Jugger's battery dry as well (depending on how the Orz feel about you that day, I suppose). However, (e) has no place here; it doesn't follow game physics as we understand them.
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Valaggar
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Or use a ship that can pierce the antimatter cone with its projectiles. The Old Alliance Broodhomes and Penetrators should make short work of them (as well as the possibility of teleporting a Skiff inside the formation). The New Alliance could wipe them out with the aformentioned Penetrators, or tractor them out of formation one by one with an Avatar to be picked off by other ships at their leisure. This is why this tactic died with the pike. Only that if you don't have conepierce-able ships/Avatars, you can't do like that.
Also, Penetrators are not a good solution, since their song doesn't affect captains.
However, (e) has no place here; it doesn't follow game physics as we understand them. The game's universe's physics are not completely written. We can make this assumption that looks very "realistic" (sci-fi-realistic).
In fact, (d) had no place, since it was based upon the SuperMelee quite abstract physics (in reality ramming is dangerous for both ships).
I wouldn't count on Umgah being useful though. What about a reverse-phalanx charge?
Or anyway, these ships take a bit of time to kill without conepierce-able ships, and even then, they act as good and cheap decoys.
They could also lay barriers for protection of friendlies/interdiction of tactical areas.
What about this interesting thingy:
Since Avatars are able to throw unmanned Scout-like bombs (Glory Devices), we have no longer need for Shofixti Scouts.
But with their kamikaze-like psychology, they aren't going to accept a safer ship.
Then what ship will they use?!
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Draxas
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Only that if you don't have conepierce-able ships/Avatars, you can't do like that.
Also, Penetrators are not a good solution, since their song doesn't affect captains.
Why are Penetrators not a good solution? I don't think the Umgah are going to just let their crewmen bail out, they'll probably break formation to try to retrieve them. After all, a lonely captain has nobody to tell jokes to other than the enemy. Besides, even if the Umgah show uncharacteristic discipline and disregard for their fellows, they're still down to one crewman per ship; the slightest slip-up after that means certain doom.
Also, if a formation of Umgah decides to schiltron indefinitely, why continue to try to eliminate them? They couldn't be performing this manuver anywhere near a gravity well, meaning that they're not protecting anything important other than their own hides. Their enemies only need to leave behind enough ships to keep them in formation, and split off the rest of their fleet to perform whatever objective they're really there for.
The game's universe's physics are not completely written. We can make this assumption that looks very "realistic" (sci-fi-realistic).
In fact, (d) had no place, since it was based upon the SuperMelee quite abstract physics (in reality ramming is dangerous for both ships).
(D) is a realistic assumption based on what we know happens when two objects collide with each other. (E) directly contradicts our knowledge of the technology as it is described in the game, and that's probably why you're the only one advocating the theory.
I wouldn't count on Umgah being useful though.
I always saw a Hierarchy fleet as using Umgah as a forward shield, to block most of the incoming fire during the approach. Of course, once battle is joined and that function is no longer needed, they probably aren't useful anymore (unless the decision is made to retreat, anyway).
What about this interesting thingy:
Since Avatars are able to throw unmanned Scout-like bombs (Glory Devices), we have no longer need for Shofixti Scouts.
But with their kamikaze-like psychology, they aren't going to accept a safer ship.
Then what ship will they use?!
Why wouldn't we need Scouts? Scouts are useful for many different roles: Forward recon, fast flank attacks, breaking formations, and sowing chaos in general. The only time you wouldn't want Scouts around is during an ambush situation, where the Scouts could be behind friendly lines.
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Valaggar
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Why are Penetrators not a good solution? I don't think the Umgah are going to just let their crewmen bail out, they'll probably break formation to try to retrieve them. No, the crewmen won't have any route to the Penetrator other than through the antimatter cone.
Besides, even if the Umgah show uncharacteristic discipline and disregard for their fellows, they're still down to one crewman per ship; the slightest slip-up after that means certain doom. I agree, but they won't get hit anyway due to their cones. And they don't have so much crew as for this to matter.
Their enemies only need to leave behind enough ships to keep them in formation, and split off the rest of their fleet to perform whatever objective they're really there for. I didn't say otherwise, but even if it's not a terribly good strategy, it's still a stalemate.
(D) is a realistic assumption based on what we know happens when two objects collide with each other. (E) directly contradicts our knowledge of the technology as it is described in the game, and that's probably why you're the only one advocating the theory. Well, let's just say that D and E are equally unrealistic.
Since like you won't have such unrealistic collisions in an accurate depiction of a Star Control battlle, neither would have small planets and asteroids or screen wrapping or whatever.
I always saw a Hierarchy fleet as using Umgah as a forward shield, to block most of the incoming fire during the approach. Of course, once battle is joined and that function is no longer needed, they probably aren't useful anymore (unless the decision is made to retreat, anyway). They could entertain the others, if only these others would have a sense of humor. Don't they?! Har! Har! Har!
But other than forward shield, entertainers (jerks?) or chargers... they're going to be sitting blobbies. Anyway, they're cheap. Their humor too.
HAR! HAR! HAR! WHAT DID YOU SAY?!
Why wouldn't we need Scouts? Scouts are useful for many different roles: Forward recon, fast flank attacks, breaking formations, and sowing chaos in general An unmanned Glory Device would fill these roles perfectly except the forward recon.
But, anyway, the noble&glorious etc. Shofixti warriors aren't going to just sit there and recon the enemy positions.
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Draxas
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No, the crewmen won't have any route to the Penetrator other than through the antimatter cone.
Which is why they would probably shut said cone off to retrieve them. Scorched earth is a bad policy in space battles.
I agree, but they won't get hit anyway due to their cones. And they don't have so much crew as for this to matter.
Somehow I don't think everything is going to go perfectly with positioning that there isn't going to be some kind of problem, and the tiniest clip by one cone on another vessel will result in its demise. Not a good situation.
I didn't say otherwise, but even if it's not a terribly good strategy, it's still a stalemate.
But to what end? Few military objectives involve utterly anihilating every single enemy, unless you're with the Kohr-Ah. What's to stop a small part of the main fleet from locking down the Umgah, and then simply leaving once this mission is complete? It's not like the Umgah have the ability to stop them. Besides, the assumption that the battle stalemates is based entirely on the lack of any Chenjesu or Chmmr ships present, which is unlikely at any time it would be relevant.
An unmanned Glory Device would fill these roles perfectly except the forward recon.
But, anyway, the noble&glorious etc. Shofixti warriors aren't going to just sit there and recon the enemy positions.
I don't see projectiles making a flank attack anytime soon, and the Chmmr are slow enough that the enemy force could move to compensate for the flanking attack before it could be initiated.
Besides, if the Shofixti wanted a safer ship to fly, I'm sure the Yehat would be more than happy to share their shielding technology. They WANT to pilot their flying bombs. However, you seem to confuse their willingness to die for victory with a recklessness and desire for death. The Shofixti don't detonate their ships for no reason, they do it when it will inflict maximum casualties (or when the situation is hopeless). As such, a reckless attack that could be easily repelled with minimal losses is probably not something they engage in. So why would they rush into battle from a recon mission, instead of coming back with heavier support (as well as relaying info an enemy positions and weaknesses to their allies)? "Willing to die" is not the same as "stupid."
Space is 3 dimensional
Of course it is. I imagine that schiltron would basically amount to a hollow ball formed by Drones. Of course, this begs the question: Why are there so many drones, and no other types of Hierarchy ships, present? Seems like extremely poor strategy to me.
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Valaggar
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Which is why they would probably shut said cone off to retrieve them. Scorched earth is a bad policy in space battles. If you break the schiltron, you'll lose everything. Otherwise, you just lose some mouths&eyes&tentacles.
Somehow I don't think everything is going to go perfectly with positioning that there isn't going to be some kind of problem, and the tiniest clip by one cone on another vessel will result in its demise. Not a good situation. Now we're talking about very disciplined Umgah. Hmm... personally I haven't seen anyone, but maybe...
What's to stop a small part of the main fleet from locking down the Umgah, and then simply leaving once this mission is complete? It's not like the Umgah have the ability to stop them. Well, I forgot it - Umgah Drones aren't anyway as dangerous - and they can't back-charge while in schiltron.
I don't see projectiles making a flank attack anytime soon, and the Chmmr are slow enough that the enemy force could move to compensate for the flanking attack before it could be initiated. If you don't have a Chmmr in the flank, yes, projectiles don't flank. Anyway, flanking is used to circumvent enemy defenses, which isn't the case in this case - and you can always find a hole through which to shoot. Flanking is not paramount in such a case.
About the Shofixti's unwillingness to scout - I agree, even Tanaka was returning from a scout mission - but the effect on their morale would be great if they would constantly face such a low danger.
Why are there so many drones, and no other types of Hierarchy ships, present? Seems like extremely poor strategy to me. Who said there aren't any ships? I was talking about a post-battle situation in which only the Umgah remain alive.
And in a fleet battle there are going to be an extreme number of ships - think about how many ships there are in a system.
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Valaggar
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So there are many ways of beating it.
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Valaggar
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About ZEX's Fortress Square - here's my view of it. Coming soon: Dynamic Triangle.
So, this is the Square/wall when looked at from the front:
Group B is pointed away from us, while Group A is pointed towards us.
* The red circle is the range of a VUX laser (this spacing was chosen since it covers the most space while having as many Intruders attacking you from all sides as possible).
* This formation is meant specifically against attacks on Group B (the VUX may force such a target for the enemy's attack in several ways:
1. A stronger Group A.
2. Paint the Intruders/otherwise modify their appearance so that Group A seems pointed away and Group B seems pointed towards us, or both Groups seem pointed towards us.
3. Group A's right flank (left as we see it) is defended by asteroids/a planet/forces of the other Hierarchy races, so the enemy prefers to attack Group B.)
* How it works:
-Group B runs away from the enemies as they close in. They launch limpets.
-Group A approaches the enemy
(BOTH Groups ACTUALLY ROTATE ROUND A CENTRAL AXIS THAT DIVIDES THE GROUPS)
- This way, the enemy are as limpetted as possible, and Group A soon attacks their flank, cutting their ships into pieces.
Group B can return to help as well if there are no other enemies left on the battlefield (in which case they shouldn't break their formation yet).
* Another possible name for this tactic: The Sliding Wall
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Valaggar
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As promised, here is my interpretation of the Dynamic Triangle:
The formation consists of four identical triangular groups that form a bigger similar triangle (the second level of a Sierpinski triangle)
(REFER TO THE SECOND IMAGE FROM THE LEFT)
(The little triangle in the middle (of the SECOND IMAGE FROM LEFT) is an Intruder group too, albeit it has the same colour as the background and it is not included in the Sierpinski triangle)
Well then. The formation is arranged horizontally to the enemy fleet, but a bit above. (I know, there's no above in space, but I mean that it's exactly like a full wedge, only that the VUX fleet has a different z coordinate than the enemy fleet.
Just the difference needed for avoiding crashes. Close enough to shoot, though. As close as possible.)
The Dynamic Triangle (the formation I just described) uses a Gravity Whip to approach the enemy fleet. While a bit above and in front of it, they launch limpets, then brake and close in.
The central triangular group charges frontally, and the other three triangles flank. Limpets and lasers at will.
Best against overconfident enemies.
Why can't you use the Triangle with vertical orientation, you may ask? Because you will present to the enemy a much larger area of shooting you.
That's also why you arrange the formation with a side in the forward direction, not a vertex. So more like a saw than a wedge.
So these are the two famous ZEX tactics. I find my Dynamic Square a bit lame, but I can't find anything better. Perhaps somebody has a better idea.
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« Last Edit: March 25, 2007, 07:35:11 pm by Valaggar »
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Draxas
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Why call it a "dynamic" triangle, then? There doesn't seem to be much flexibility inherent in the formation.
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