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Author Topic: Best value ships  (Read 11587 times)
Cedric6014
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Best value ships
« on: December 22, 2006, 06:55:51 am »

Hi all,

I'd like to hear from you all which ships you think are the best value (or worst value), starbucks-wise, for Melee and why.

I'll start!

BEST

Androsynth Guardian - I reckon this should be a couple of points extra - maybe 17. This ship is more than the equal of the Slylandro, Supox or Druuge. It can evade most ships just by virtue of its bubble clouds.  In my experience it does more that 15 points worth of damage to most ships.

Chmmr Avatar - Outclasses  Kohr-Ah and Ur-Quan and makes VERY short work of the Chenjesu. Essential agaisnt annoying fast ships like the Spathi, Pkunk, Slylandro and Arilou. Should be 33  pts

Utwig Jugger - I think most people have twigged on to this - should be 25 pts.

WORST

Ilwrath - purpose built for destroying earthlings in SC1 - a lame duck in SC2 - drop it 1 or 2 points.

Yehat - again, not the irrestistable force it was in SC1. The speed of SC2 on modern systems (I find) means that using the shields effectively is very difficult. Drop it to 20 points!
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Zeep-Eeep
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Re: Best value ships
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2006, 03:23:16 pm »

Best bang for the buck? Thraddish Torch. I don't think there is a ship I
can't easily defeat with that sexy after-burn.
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Deus Siddis
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Re: Best value ships
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2006, 04:21:08 pm »

Actually, I think the Cruiser creams the Torch, and at 11 points, it is also the best value. The Avatrar is also a great value, even the though the price per unit is high.

Using these two ships, I think there is little or nothing that could put up much of a fight against you.
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Tiberian
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Re: Best value ships
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2006, 04:36:03 pm »

Zeep-Eeep, The Torch only works as long as the enemy is moving. When I fight The Torch, I always just sit still and thus forcing the enemy to use it's main cannon.
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Re: Best value ships
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2006, 05:08:48 pm »

Best:
Earthling Cruiser - Can take out most of the high-point (21 and above) ships, with a degree of luck, and stands a chance against many others at the same time. Low cost.
Androsynth Guardian - Can take out most of anything, high-point or not. Also low cost.
Shofixti Scout - Small package, big boom!
Yehat Terminator -  More balanced than the Jugger, and more than capable of pwning it. An elite pilot with a Terminator can sink a legion of ships.
Orz Nemesis - Can take out most ships with its uber-marines and ranged artillery. Capable against more costly ships.
Spathi Eluder - Effective, but undoubtably one of, if not the, most dull ships in the entire game.

Worst:
Umgah Drone - This ship is so utterly laughable for its price that it barely deserves 5 points, much less 7.
Mycon Podship - I appreciate the Podship more nowadays than I used to, but I still highly doubt that it is worth 21 points. It only barely justifies that distinction in SC1, because of the crew regeneration.
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AngusThermopyle
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Re: Best value ships
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2006, 05:10:16 pm »

Good point, Tiberian. As long as you pillbox, the Torch is rather weak. But it is fun to light up the computer with it.   Grin

Anways, best values:

VUX - For only 12 starbucks, you can warp in right next to your enemy and gunk him up and inflict some damage. Even if you lose, the enemy is usually crippled.

Earthling - Usually does decent damage to the enemy, even if it doesn't win.

Melnorme - At only 18 starbucks, you can take on the big boys with reasonable chance to win. Surprisingly fast too. Also great for taking out annoying Yehats and Utwings.

Mmrnmhrm - A versatile ship that often gets overlooked.

Androsynth - See Cedric's post above.

Worst:

Mycon - Easily the most overrated ship. A good number of 'lesser' ships can dispatch of it with ease. I think it gets a lot of its value in SC1, when you'd automatically recrew your ship after a battle in the full game. Without that feature, its way overpriced.

Illwrath - See above. I've extolled its potential virtues in true 3-D combat at length, but it's fodder in Super Melee.

Pkunk - Personally, I think the cost is rather high for a ship that relies heavily on luck.
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Re: Best value ships
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2006, 06:40:11 pm »

the most bang for my buck personaly are the following

1. The thradish torch - simply put, the torch is awesome for killing other ships or getting out of problems fast. The other nice thing that is often overlooked about the torch, although the main gun does almost no damage it shoots though just about anything. If you keep moving and fire carefully you can even take out someone unwilling to chase you.
2. The punkunk fury - it's fast, it can circle strafe and above all it just dosnt die. this ship has more lives then a cat with for rabbits feet.
3. Human Cruser - nothing strikes fear into my frieds quite like me at the helm of this ship. If you dont quite finish off one of the larger enemy ships simply jumping in and hitting them for 8 damage usually finalizes them. The human isnt very fast but if you sit near the planet you can use the gravaty well to get the speed the ship needs. It's PDL's are efficent the nukes work well on all but a few ships and finally and most importantly, it can turn fast enough to dodge some projectiles.
4. The Yehat Terminator - A ship banned from use by my friends. Timeing is EVERYTHING with this ship. if your timing is good the sheild will save you and let you tackle just about every ship, if your timing is better you can outlast the other ships combat battery and proceeded to minigun your target to pieces.
5. Orz Nemmis - This ship should take out 2-3 other ships by itself, usually big point guzzlers like the urquan's or the chmmr but after that it has no crew and just a long range gun and is running fast. Why you ask? the space marines! When you warp in start dropping alot of these guys on the feild and use your main turreted(!) gun to distract your enemy, the result theres more marines on the enemy ship then crew really fast, after that its just a matter of time. You take out 2 or three of their big ships like that and you will have a massive ship advantage really fast.

the most useless ships?
the slylandro probe - its super is non existant, its gun is short range and it's impossible to aim. I never use this thing, and tend to take them out very fast with a spathi or something with a rear fire/mine style weapon.
syreen ship - yes its fast, yes it can steal crew, the problem? you have to be close and your main gun is kinda lame. with alot of the larger ships having a system for solving the problem (urquan fighters/fireball circle, orz marines, mycon regen, PDL's) its not worth the loss of a ship.

helpful advice?
If you want to take the advantage in a hyper melee early start with a shofixi scout, if it dosnt destroy the enemies first ship then send it a human and finish it off...by then the human is moving quick and not as easy a target.
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Re: Best value ships
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2006, 06:55:01 pm »

I suppose I should have specified that the Torch is my favourite in combat against the computer. The computer almost always moves.

Aganst another human player, it's a completely different story. I'd have to go with the Avatar then.
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Re: Best value ships
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2006, 04:54:27 pm »

I'm wondering how many people here play against human opponents?  With that said:

BEST:

1. Thraddash.  I don't care if you're going to bunker down against it (I've actually never encountered this tactic in my years of playing vs humans), I'll pick you off.  The main gun may be a slow way to kill, but it's got range and I've got time.

2. Spathi.  Same thing.  Annoyingly long battles, but the butt missiles are great.

3. Sylandro.  Call it a 'personal fave' of mine.  It's fast as hell, has that annoying ability to reverse on the fly, and if allowed to get close can rip someone apart.

4. Pkunk.  Another fast ship, and as already mentioned, it will circle strafe someone to death.  Add in rebirth, and we have a winner.

5. Androsynth.  Getting stuck in a corner of someone's ship while in comet-mode is rather amusing.

WORST:

1. MMRNMHRM.  Can't turn worth a damn in 'fast' mode, and slow as balls in 'attack' mode.

2. Umgah.  I've gotten cheap key-lock kills in my day with it, but I can't value it as a 'useful' ship.  More like "I have a free slot and I want something annoying."

3. Earthling.  Don't see the love for it that the rest of the board has.  Maybe I'll have to net-play someone good to see what the hype is all about.

-kwamp
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Re: Best value ships
« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2006, 01:17:34 am »

Best: Supox Blade and Arilou Skiff.

Skiff: Pretty much anything can take you out in one or two shots. However, actually getting that shot in can be *HELL* if you're a good enough Skiff pilot. Your maneuverability is second to none, and you can teleport away when things start looking grim. If you manage to approach the enemy from a good angle, and you have a feel for how much a teleport takes, you can roast him with the laser and zip out before he has a chance to strike back. I like taking out Ur-Quan this way. The Skiff is next to useless against some ships, though, no matter how good you are. I've yet to see anyone consistently fry Chmmr Avatars with it.

Blade: The maneuverability on this is amazing. I used to think the lateral movement was useless, but you can dodge most non-targeting weapons with ease, and you're quick enough to evade the targeting ones --- or stay out of range. You can turn Orz space marines and Ur-Quan fighters to dust with ease. The staggering rate of fire (even on an empty battery) and decent range on the sproutgun makes this one a hit. The Yehat Terminator, an excellent ship in the right hands, is meat against a properly flown Blade.

I also like the Jugger and the Terminator, although the Terminator is nowhere near as deadly as it was in SC1.

Worst: Chenjesu Broodhome and Mmrnmhrm Transformer.

Broodhome: So slow that it borders on complete uselessness. Not only does it have next to no thrust, it also has a so laughably slow turning rate that it can be outmaneuvered even by a lumbering Dreadnought. Get behind it, keep a reasonable range, and it's so much crystalline meat.

Transformer: Either it's ridiculously slow, or it's ridiculously poorly maneuverable. Its weapons are pretty pathetic as well. The lasers are reasonable, but getting close enough to use them while in X-form borders on impossible. Or maybe I just never bothered to get good with this tub.

I also dislike the Umgah Drone and the Mycon Podship, for the same reasons as everyone else. The Drone, at least, is cheap.
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Re: Best value ships
« Reply #10 on: December 25, 2006, 11:18:15 pm »

I'm a fan of the Chmmr Avatar, Mmrnmhrm Transformer, Thraddash Torch, and Shofixti Scout. I also like the Androsynth Guardian a lot.

Avatar: You say the Chmmr Avatar is too expensive? I say nay. Handled expertly, the Avatar is like unto a demigod, with very very few ships capable of consistently winning against it (blast those Yehat Terminators...) You can kill ships through the tractor beam alone, by dragging them into the planet, and the laser is an incredible weapon. The Zapsats are almost unnecessary.

Transformer: And what's with people saying the Mmrnmhrm Transformer is awkward or difficult to maneuver? If you desperately need to turn, you can switch forms and use that to turn. It takes three seconds or so, tops. The bigger ships can be worn down through the long-range missiles, and if you can aim right with the fast form, you can switch back before teaching your target and unload a full battery of lasers on it. While I wish sometimes that I could cram the two forms together, and get a fast, maneuverable ship with lasers and missiles, that would just create another ubership like the Avatar. In summary, the Transformer is underrated.

Torch: One of few ships that can do decently against the Avatar, with a decent forward-firing weapon. The Afterburners can be relied upon for a quick speed boost, meaning you don't have to rely on gravity whips. It may take patience, but this here ship is a winner.

Scout: Just a quote, by way of explanation: "Our people blew up the sun! Heh heh heh..."

Guardian: The bubbles have lots of uses, from being deployed as barriers while you run to shielding yourself from projectiles. The Blazer form, when used properly, can wreak havoc on Orz Marines and Kzer-Za fighters, and kills most ships in seconds provided you can stick on the hull in a good place. This ship should be a 25. At least.

On the other hand, I DON'T like the Druuge Mauler, Kzer-Za Dreadnought, and Ilwrath Avenger.

Mauler: I'm not very good at precise aim, and every shot you make with this thing counts. You're also slow, and the secondary ability - slaughter a crew member for the furnace - is the only way to get decent energy. So, indirectly, every shot you make is a slow death for your ship. Add that to the fact that using the thruster once flying slows you down, and that hitting the planet at high-speed hurts, and asteroids tend to come out of nowhere, and this is an awkward ship that is incredibly difficult to use well.

Dreadnought: Your primary weapon is good, but deploying fighters is risky, as a simple asteroid can remove six or more in one go, and lots of ships are capable of killing them easily. Given the awkward maneuverability, relying simply on the forward-firing blast can be frustrating, and so, despite this ship's potential and power, I think it should be taken down a couple of points.

Avenger: It sucks. Enough said.
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Re: Best value ships
« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2006, 02:33:14 am »

The Androsynth ship needs a point increase more than any other, but 25 is too extreme. I favor 18, maybe 20 points.
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Zeep-Eeep
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Re: Best value ships
« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2006, 02:44:27 am »

One thing I notice in general from the responses here have been that people
tend to favour speed/thrust over crew/battery size. I find that interesting.
I find the slower ships, generally, the hardest to use: Ugma, Ilwrath, VUX.
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Re: Best value ships
« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2006, 04:34:20 am »

I find most of these kinds of threads when they come on here to be very interesting reading - they tend to tip the experience level of whoever is posting, as well as whether they've played humans much or not.
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Re: Best value ships
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2006, 09:48:43 pm »

Ive made a program for generating random teams for netplay at http://www.cwo.ca/sc2.php

In this program, I had also included a predictor to determine which team should theoretically win.  So i had mapped out each ships strenghts and weaknesses.  The list I have is :

9  Kohr-Ah Marauder
8  Ur-Quan Dreadnought
8  Utwig Jugger
6  Supox Blade
6  Chmmr Avatar
4  Melnorme Trader
4  Mmrnmhrm Transformer
4  Chenjesu Broodhome
3  Ariloulaleelay Skiff
3  Orz Nemesis
3  Spathi Eluder
3  Shofixti Scout
3  Pkunk Fury
1  Earthling Cruiser
1  Androsynth Guardian
-2  Syreen Penetrator
-2  Thraddash Torch
-2  Yehat Terminator
-4  Zoq-Fot-Pik Stinger
-6  VUX Intruder
-6  Slylandro Probe
-7  Druuge Mauler
-7  Ilwrath Avenger
-11  Mycon Podship
-19  Umgah Drone

This list gives 1 point for every ship they are strong against, and -1 for each they are weak against.  This assumes a decently skilled human opponent.

The strenghts table is as follows (these are strenghts in relation to starbuck costs):


/* Androsynth*/ $adv[0] = (4, 5, 10, 11, 19, 21, 22);
/* Arilou    */ $adv[1] = (8, 10, 11, 18, 19, 23);
/* Chenjesu  */ $adv[2] = (6, 13, 16, 17, 18, 19, 21);
/* Chmmr     */ $adv[3] = (1, 2, 5, 14, 15, 17, 22, 23, 24);
/* Druuge    */ $adv[4] = (3, 6, 19);
/* Earthling */ $adv[5] = (4, 7, 12, 15, 22);
/* Ilwrath   */ $adv[6] = (9, 10, 14, 22);
/* Kohr-Ah   */ $adv[7] = (1, 4, 6, 10, 11, 14, 15, 17, 18, 19, 24);
/* Melnorme  */ $adv[8] = (0, 6, 10, 19, 23);
/* Mmrnmhrm  */ $adv[9] = (0, 4, 10, 19, 20, 22);
/* Mycon     */ $adv[10] = (4, 19, 22);
/* Orz       */ $adv[11] = (2, 4, 6, 10, 19, 20, 22, 23);
/* Pkunk     */ $adv[12] = (4, 10, 13, 15, 19);
/* Shofixti  */ $adv[13] = (0, 1, 3, 6, 14, 19, 22, 24);
/* Slylandro */ $adv[14] = (17, 19);
/* Spathi    */ $adv[15] = (4, 10, 11, 13, 19, 22, 24);
/* Supox     */ $adv[16] = (0, 6, 10, 13, 17, 19, 23, 24);
/* Syreen    */ $adv[17] = (0, 6, 10, 19);
/* Thraddash */ $adv[18] = (0, 6, 14);
/* Umgah     */ $adv[19] = ();
/* Ur-Quan   */ $adv[20] = (2, 4, 6, 14, 16, 18, 19, 22, 23, 24);
/* Utwig     */ $adv[21] = (3, 5, 7, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 17, 18);
/* VUX       */ $adv[22] = (4, 19, 21, 23);
/* Yehat     */ $adv[23] = (5, 6, 10, 14, 19);
/* Zoq-Fot-P */ $adv[24] = (10, 19);


Feel free to discuss these advantages, or ask me for a game in irc to test em out;
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