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Author Topic: Best value ships  (Read 11614 times)
Death 999
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Re: Best value ships
« Reply #30 on: April 05, 2007, 06:32:51 pm »

Quote from: Draxas
I think equally weighting the opponents is a very silly way to determine costs - certain matchups are far more likely than others.
Because players prefer certain ships? Nope, this shouldn't be taken into account.

No... Consider a case where an expensive ship clobbers an inexpensive ship. Really almost no chance of the little ship even doing damage.

Say, Chmmr vs Earthling.

Now, How would this battle occur?

Earthling sent in vs Chmmr? Rare, due to Earthling's suckitude vs Chmmr. Only at the very end would this happen.

Chmmr sent in vs Earthling? Rare, because the player with the Chmmr doesn't want to commit his valuable ship to the arena, where a cheaper counter can be put in against it. Again, only at the very end would this happen.

So that matchup would be comparatively less important.
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Re: Best value ships
« Reply #31 on: April 05, 2007, 06:44:07 pm »

Ah... I've got your point. But no, there still would be many situations when the cheaper ship will win - some ships are better against certain ships than the others.
In fact, this thing will even be boosted by a cost balancing.
And it's normal that the ship that can counter the most adversaries is given the most points - it's because it's worth several ships.
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Re: Best value ships
« Reply #32 on: April 05, 2007, 07:56:28 pm »

Ur-Quan:
Ur-Quan 0
Chmmr 0
Kohr-Ah 0
Chenjesu 0
Orz -2
Yehat +1
Utwig -1.5
Mycon +1
Pkunk -0.5
Mmrnmhrm -1
Melnorme +1
Spathi -2
Druuge +1
Slylandro +1.5
Supox -2
Arilou +1
Androsynth +1.5
Syreen +1.5
Earthling -1.5
VUX +0.5
Ilwrath +2
Zoq-Fot-Pik 0
Shofixti -1

Sum is +0.5, cost is 34.5
VUX: 11.5
Umgah: 2
Ur-Quan: 34.5
Ilwrath: 11.5
« Last Edit: April 06, 2007, 09:58:15 am by Valaggar » Logged
Elvish Pillager
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Re: Best value ships
« Reply #33 on: April 05, 2007, 10:22:00 pm »

I do have to agree that the Ilwrath, as it is currently, is the worst ship.

Thraddash.

Ilwrath are extremely good at gravity whipping, have pretty high crew, good damage once they get close, and some cool features: relativistic shots, cloaking, and instant turning when they uncloak. They have a guaranteed win against Earthlings, and can be effective against (in approximate decreasing order of effectiveness) Arilou, Shofixti, Pkunk, Supox, Syreen, Mmrnmhrm, Orz, and Mycon.

Except for their cost, I'd place Ilwrath as more useful than at least the really low-cost ships (Shofixti, Zoq-fot...)
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Re: Best value ships
« Reply #34 on: April 06, 2007, 03:46:33 am »

Well, I think i'm pretty spot on with my new values. If the net effect would be that people are as likely to pick an urquan as a kohr ah or a yehat as an orz then its worked. I'd pick a mycon if it were slightly cheaper. I might think twice about picking a more expenive androsythn, although i wonder of an extra 3 points is enough even?

Interestingly, since there has been a great deal of high-quality net-play since the thread was originally posted, I think some values have been revised. I dont think we consider the Utwig to be the supreme ship some thought it was. Also its is now evident that the kohr-ah pawns all.
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Re: Best value ships
« Reply #35 on: April 06, 2007, 09:22:37 am »

Quote from: Elvish Pillager
They have a guaranteed win against Earthlings, and can be effective against (in approximate decreasing order of effectiveness) Arilou, Shofixti, Pkunk, Supox, Syreen, Mmrnmhrm, Orz, and Mycon.
Against Arilou and Mmrnmhrm, yes - cost revised.
Against Pkunk and Mycon, it was already mentioned.
Shofixti, Supox, Syreen and Orz may kill it from a distance.
Earthlings may do this also.

Ah - Mmrnmhrm may kill Ilwrath easily in Y-Form.
But let's say that it is too long a battle.

Ah - also, Ilwrath is good against Probes.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2007, 09:58:43 am by Valaggar » Logged
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Re: Best value ships
« Reply #36 on: April 06, 2007, 10:14:42 am »

Slylandro:

Ur-Quan -1
Chmmr -2
Kohr-Ah -1.5
Chenjesu -1.5
Orz +1
Yehat -0.5
Utwig -1
Mycon +2
Pkunk 0
Mmrnmhrm -2
Melnorme +1.5
Spathi 0
Druuge -1
Slylandro 0
Supox +1.5
Arilou +2
Androsynth +1
Syreen +1
Earthling +1
VUX +0.5
Ilwrath -1
Zoq-Fot-Pik +1
Shofixti 0
Umgah 0
Thraddash +2

Sum is 3, value is 37.

Oops, looks like I skipped Umgah and Thraddash for Ur-Quan and Umgah. Corrected:
Umgah 4
Ilwrath 11.5
Ur-Quan 34.5
VUX 11.5
Slylandro 37

WOW, now there won't be that many Slylandro chasing you in HS after this major cost revamping...  Wink
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Re: Best value ships
« Reply #37 on: April 06, 2007, 10:49:23 am »

Earthling:
Ur-Quan +1.5
Chmmr -2
Kohr-Ah -2
Chenjesu -1
Orz -2
Yehat -2
Utwig -2
Mycon -2
Pkunk -1.5
Mmrnmhrm -1
Melnorme -2
Spathi -1
Druuge +0.5
Slylandro -1
Supox -1.5
Arilou +0.5
Androsynth -2
Syreen +0.5
Earthling 0
VUX 0
Ilwrath -1
Zoq-Fot-Pik 0
Shofixti 0
Umgah +2
Thraddash +2

Sum is -17, value is 17.

Umgah 4
Ilwrath 11.5
Ur-Quan 34.5
VUX 11.5
Slylandro 37
Earthling 17
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Re: Best value ships
« Reply #38 on: April 06, 2007, 12:53:17 pm »

Shofixti:
Ur-Quan -1.5
Chmmr -1
Kohr-Ah -1.5
Chenjesu -1
Orz -2
Yehat -0.5
Utwig -1.5
Mycon +2
Pkunk -1
Mmrnmhrm -0.5
Melnorme -0.5
Spathi -1
Druuge -0.5
Slylandro 0
Supox -0.5
Arilou 0
Androsynth -1
Syreen -0.5
Earthling 0
VUX +2
Ilwrath +2
Zoq-Fot-Pik -1
Shofixti 0
Umgah 0
Thraddash +1

Sum is -8.5, new cost is 25.5; but this high price would make it unlikely for someone to wish to sacrifice it, so we'll half it to 12.

Umgah 4
Ilwrath 11.5
Ur-Quan 34.5
VUX 11.5
Slylandro 37
Earthling 17
Shofixti 12
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Re: Best value ships
« Reply #39 on: April 06, 2007, 02:42:36 pm »

Nope... I figured out a better method to avoid over/underpricing, such as what happened with the Scout:
Add +1 for each ship that <current> can beat (positive value)
Add -1 for each ship that <current> can't beat (negative value)

Stay tuned for the result of the calculations
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Re: Best value ships
« Reply #40 on: April 06, 2007, 03:03:51 pm »

Aha! New values follow:
(now I had to add 51 to every value, due to the Umgah having a score of -49)

VUX 16.5
Ilwrath 19.5
Umgah 2
Ur-Quan 53.5
Slylandro 56
Earthling 25
Shofixti 30.5 -> 15

Nope, this doesn't solve the Shofixti problem. It seems that I simply got the values of Shofixti vs various wrong.
I've corrected it by halfing the price)

Anyway, what do you think? Should we use this second algorithm (add +1/-1)?
I thought that there should be a bigger difference between losing and reducing the enemy crew to zero and losing and killing the enemy, so I come with this thing.
In fact, I think I'll keep it.
Just let me correct the Shofixti.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2007, 03:19:18 pm by Valaggar » Logged
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Re: Best value ships
« Reply #41 on: April 06, 2007, 04:52:47 pm »

Ah - Mmrnmhrm may kill Ilwrath easily in Y-Form.
But let's say that it is too long a battle.
It's a staring contest. To actually kill an Ilwrath with non-homing missles can easily take an hour. The sane strategy for the Mmrnmhrm is to laser at close range, which puts it at somewhat of a disadvantage.

Cedric - the main issues I currently have with your new costings are that Kohr-Ah aren't better than Chmmr, and that Ur-Quan and Chenjesu are still overcosted.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2007, 04:55:21 pm by Elvish Pillager » Logged

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Re: Best value ships
« Reply #42 on: April 06, 2007, 06:04:06 pm »

Kohr-Ah:
Ur-Quan 0
Chmmr 0
Kohr-Ah 0
Chenjesu -1.5
Orz +0.5
Yehat -1
Utwig -1
Mycon +1
Pkunk +1.5
Mmrnmhrm +2
Melnorme -1.5
Spathi -1.5
Druuge +2
Slylandro +1.5
Supox -1.5
Arilou +2
Androsynth 0
Syreen +1
Earthling +2
VUX +1.5
Ilwrath +2
Zoq-Fot-Pik +1
Shofixti +1.5
Umgah +2
Thraddash +2

Sum is +25.5, value is 76.5.

VUX 16.5
Ilwrath 19.5
Umgah 2
Ur-Quan 53.5
Slylandro 56
Earthling 25
Shofixti 15
Kohr-Ah 76.5
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Re: Best value ships
« Reply #43 on: April 06, 2007, 06:46:19 pm »

Thraddash:
Ur-Quan -1
Chmmr -2
Kohr-Ah -2
Chenjesu -2
Orz -1.5
Yehat -2
Utwig -2
Mycon -2
Pkunk -1.5
Mmrnmhrm -1.5
Melnorme -2
Spathi -2
Druuge -1
Slylandro -2
Supox -2
Arilou -2
Androsynth +1.5
Syreen -1.5
Earthling -2
VUX +1
Ilwrath 0
Zoq-Fot-Pik -2
Shofixti -1
Umgah -2
Thraddash 0

Sum is -53.5 - THE LOWEST VALUE SHIP! Elvish was right...
So, from now on, we add +55 to everything instead of +51:


VUX 20.5
Ilwrath 23.5
Umgah 6
Ur-Quan 57.5
Slylandro 60
Earthling 29
Shofixti 17
Kohr-Ah 80.5
Thraddash 1.5
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Re: Best value ships
« Reply #44 on: April 06, 2007, 07:16:01 pm »

Utwig:
Ur-Quan +1.5
Chmmr -1
Kohr-Ah +1
Chenjesu 0
Orz -1.5
Yehat +0.5
Utwig 0
Mycon +2
Pkunk 0
Mmrnmhrm -2
Melnorme -1.5
Spathi +1.5
Druuge -1.5
Slylandro +1
Supox 0
Arilou +2
Androsynth +1.5
Syreen +2
Earthling +2
VUX +1
Ilwrath +2
Zoq-Fot-Pik +1
Shofixti +1.5
Umgah +2
Thraddash +2

Sum is +6, value is 61.

VUX 20.5
Ilwrath 23.5
Umgah 6
Ur-Quan 57.5
Slylandro 60
Earthling 29
Shofixti 17
Kohr-Ah 80.5
Thraddash 1.5
Utwig 61
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