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Author Topic: Ur-Quan Dreadnought to be re-named "Banana Boat"  (Read 36618 times)
Shiver
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Ur-Quan Dreadnought to be re-named "Banana Boat"
« on: January 23, 2007, 03:18:32 am »

Ladies and gentleman, the Ur-Quan Dreadnought is useless in player vs player. When compared to the Chmmr and Kohr-Ah, many more ships are easily capable of taking it down. A large number of the ships that can't beat a Dreadnought usually inflict more than their weight in damage against it. For example, an 11 point Earthling can often chop off half the Dreadnought's crew. This costs the other player 15 points. The very same thing will not always occur with a Kohr-Ah, given that the Kohr-Ah's weaponry is well suited for blocking incoming missiles. Over and over this expensive ship crashes and burns against the silliest of adversaries while it's brother Kohr-Ah picks up the slack. I propose making a balance mod for SC2, with the first and foremost change being a shiny new Dreadnought with slightly increased turning power and fighter craft that don't die on asteroids or expire from lack of fuel. If any of the "good" players want to prove me wrong on this I welcome any challenge although the handful I've talked to already tend to agree.

As with all PVP topics, please do not preach if you are not experienced with it. Commentary from newer players is welcome, preaching is not.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2007, 07:03:27 pm by Shiver » Logged
Captain_Smith
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Re: Ur-Quan Dreadnought to be re-named "Turdboat"
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2007, 03:42:48 am »

You aren't getting any disagreement from me.

The Ur-Quan have to take over with superior numbers because that ship of theirs isn't anything special.  30pts?   Roll Eyes  Not with so many ships capable of destroying it without much trouble.

Then again, we need to think about skills here too - there are very few innate things about the ships that are hard to counter.

Against skilled pilots, the Ur-Quan ship is crap.
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Cedric6014
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Re: Ur-Quan Dreadnought to be re-named "Turdboat"
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2007, 05:14:12 am »

I reckon, point for point, an ur-quan should outclass a chenjesu, utwig, spathi, druuge, spathi, syreen, VUX, ilwrath. in addition, it should foot it on equal terms with a kohr-ah, yehat, mycon and shofixti. Of course i'm just guessing really! I'd be up for some experimentation at some stage.
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Re: Ur-Quan Dreadnought to be re-named "Turdboat"
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2007, 03:48:27 pm »

It's not as powerful as khor-ah or Chmmr, nor the Orz,  obviously, it's still not a bad ship per se.

There are some people who don't play exclusively to win but merely to have fun, and that's why you'll see me with the umgah, ilwrath, vux and other "subpar" ships. Sometimes they do pull a win, which is gratifying (even if luck is a big part of it!  Grin)

Also, the game wasn't exactly intended for tournament play, i think the super melee was simply a training round or an after-thought that actually worked very well, so many ships that seem to us as "underpowered" to us are often ships that cause headaches to new players.

To prove my point, i've played a game against a total neophite Sunday (yes another corrupted soul!) and my umgah destroyed a a Pkunk Fury, an ilwrath Avenger, a Siren Penetrator, only to die after badly mauling an Earthling Cruiser.  So for my friend, the Umgah is now overpowered...
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Re: Ur-Quan Dreadnought to be re-named "Turdboat"
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2007, 07:57:15 pm »

The Dreanught can pack a serious punch, espcially against slow moving ships or ships without point-defence. Yes, an Earthling can give a Ur-Quan a bloody nose. On the other hand, Druuge ships are less likely to do well. Both
little guys are slow and have long range weapons, but the Druuge has no defence, really.

I do tend to agree that for 30 points, the Ur-Quan has some serious weaknesses. It's lack of manouverablity
is probably my biggest gripe.
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Death 999
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Re: Ur-Quan Dreadnought to be re-named "Turdboat"
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2007, 08:22:55 pm »

I'd say that making the fighters less suicidal might be an adequate change in itself. Make the enemy have to shoot them down, or at least ram them. Then you could lay out a fighter screen against fast ships which aren't so great at shooting down fighters, like Arilou, Pkunk, Mmrnmhrm... anyone whose tactic against the computer is to bleed them dry.

There are a few ways I can think of to do this:
1) they bounce off off asteroids like they do off the planet
2) they shoot at asteroids
3) they do not collide with asteroids
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Re: Ur-Quan Dreadnought to be re-named "Turdboat"
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2007, 11:00:20 pm »

2) they shoot at asteroids
I really like this idea; and if my memory of how the AI works is correct, it's trivial to implement.  I'm going to have to try it on a "private version" and see how I like it.

Don't expect to see it in an official release, though.  Like, ever.  Just sayin'.
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Captain_Smith
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Re: Ur-Quan Dreadnought to be re-named "Turdboat"
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2007, 01:09:34 am »

On the other hand, Druuge ships are less likely to do well. Both little guys are slow and have long range weapons, but the Druuge has no defence, really.

Actually as the Druuge, as long as you're patient (i.e. don't freak out at incoming fighters) and can control the recoil and aim well, you can do some serious damage to an Ur-Quan and sometimes kill it.  My experience anyway.
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Re: Ur-Quan Dreadnought to be re-named "Turdboat"
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2007, 08:33:18 am »

otherwise the kohr ah beating the kzer za wouldn't be logic unless they had better hardware
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Re: Ur-Quan Dreadnought to be re-named "Turdboat"
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2007, 09:10:00 am »

If I recall correctly, the First Doctrinal Conflict, as told by the Melnorme, had their tactical/strategic situation so evenly matched that the probable outcome would be mutual annilation.

Whether a Kor-Ah is clearly better than a Kzer-Za vessel I can't really say;   I've never seen these ships matched up against one another.  Suprising, but there you have it.

I also think that beefing up fighter performance would be better than beefing up turning rate/acceleration.  You could turn it into a rather nasty opponent simply by making fighters shoot at all hostile objects.  They still home in on the enemey vessel, but shoot anything close by that isn't the dreadnought itself, or a planet.
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Re: Ur-Quan Dreadnought to be re-named "Turdboat"
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2007, 03:49:59 pm »

I never really managed to use the Avatar myself, but yeah, the Dreadnaught Fighters could be a bit more useful. It would be neat if they fired on everything and it was possible to deploy them as a 'screen' around the Dreadnaught... might be too effective from a game balance perspective though.
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Re: Ur-Quan Dreadnought to be re-named "Turdboat"
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2007, 06:26:57 pm »

In my opionion, a patient ur quan can decimate a chmrr
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Captain_Smith
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Re: Ur-Quan Dreadnought to be re-named "Turdboat"
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2007, 03:01:33 am »

On the other hand, Druuge ships are less likely to do well. Both little guys are slow and have long range weapons, but the Druuge has no defence, really.

Actually as the Druuge, as long as you're patient (i.e. don't freak out at incoming fighters) and can control the recoil and aim well, you can do some serious damage to an Ur-Quan and sometimes kill it.  My experience anyway.

I just had a repeated sitdown with the awesome AI in Druuge (me) vs. Ur-Quan.  The average was about 7 Ur-Quan ships for every 2 of my Druuge ships (and I don't think I'm *that* good with the Druuge) - by about the same ratio that I can take Chmmr out.  So I would amend what I said and definitely say that the Druuge would be a ship with the potential to pwn the Ur-Quan if piloted right.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2007, 03:04:15 am by Captain Smith » Logged
Cedric6014
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Re: Ur-Quan Dreadnought to be re-named "Turdboat"
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2007, 09:23:08 am »

Trouble with that is that AI is useless with Ur-Quan. The comp will mindlessly follow you - and with a Druuge that's suicide.  All an ur-quan needs to do is keep its distance and send fighters out selectively. The druuge would have to recoil to escape the fighters, and I suspect, recoil into the path of the ur-quan's rapid-fire fusion blaster.

You should try switching ships and see how you go with a Quan against a mauler - or play a human
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Re: Ur-Quan Dreadnought to be re-named "Turdboat"
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2007, 09:33:53 am »

Even Shofixti and Zoq-Fot-Pik can do very significant damage to an AI Ur-Quan - it keeps sending fighters mindlessly, and the rapid-fire guns of those vessels tear them to pieces without much effort. It's similar against the Orz, though marines are harder to kill.
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