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Re: Needed! Staff for Project!
« Reply #30 on: February 13, 2007, 02:20:57 pm »

Interesting, but I'd like more a game with the UQM engine - the same gameplay features, only a new plot and races and expand the map etc.
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Re: Needed! Staff for Project!
« Reply #31 on: February 13, 2007, 02:44:48 pm »

Heh, I didn't say I was going to completely remove the Ship Battles, but like the other SC games, they branch off into other genres aswell (SC1 was a Chess like game, SC2 was a more RPGified situation, SCn3 had a colony system...)
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"would newton's law theory actually work if a Chmmr Avatar did a backwards pelvic thrust towards a planet and would this constitute an X=Y-0 in the part it ran straight into a Supox Blade and lasted long enough to survive?" - Elerium (as Valaggar)
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Re: Needed! Staff for Project!
« Reply #32 on: February 13, 2007, 05:49:03 pm »

Here comes 2 cents from someone who has no intention of getting involved beyond the "idea generation and criticism" phase. Wink

I think most of my criticims come in the form of your proposed ESP powers. Quite a lot of SC races show a propensity toward using ESP-style powers (or at least abilities that would resemble "magic" from a standard fantasy-setting game of this type). You seem to be overlooking these, and misapplying several of the ones you mentioned.

Races (considering background materials, dialog, and combat in SC1 & SC2 only) that possess ESP-type powers:

Pkunk (Clairvoyance, future-sight, reincarnation)
Chenjesu / presumably Chmmr (Manipulation of electricity and electrical fields)
Orz (Remote attack and/or assimilation (events on Androsynth homeworld))
Syreen (Mental domination)
Mycon (Instantaneous reproduction, instantaneous genetic mutation, regeneration)
Utwig (Future-sight (with Ultron))
Arilou (Telepathy, telekinesis (presumably, in both cases))
Dnyarri (Mental domination)
Ur-Quan / Kohr-Ah (Psychic resistance (with excruciators))
Taalo (Psychic resistance)

None of the other races show any evidence of having any psychic powers. And while the game mentions several psychically sensitive humans, they don't seem to possess any of the benefits of this trait, and simply pass out or get headaches at random times.

What am I getting at? For starters, you seem to have the roles of the Pkunk and Syreen reversed as it pertains to ESP; the Syreen have shown no aptitude towards healing, and the Pkunk are generally not inclined to use the powers they have in an agressive fashion.

On to other things... I've played many a tactical RPG, and while I realize most of them use a system where each force alternates turns, I really hate this system. Much more interesting is a system similar to the one in Final Fantasy Tactics, where each individual character on both sides has a speed score, and higher speed causes their turns to come up more frequently. This could be an effective way to make some of your seemingly less useful allies have some benefit; the example that springs to my mind would be the ZFP (they may not be particularly strong or tough, but they are quick little guys).

While it may be tempting to make the battle maps small to foce combatants to come to grips more quickly, it could also seriously hamper certain units. The same goes for a map that's too large, mind you... However, I can't imagine what the utility of melee fighters would be in a universe where hi-tech guns would likely be the norm for combat. Remember, he who lives by the sword, gets shot by someone who doesn't. In order to justify the existence of someone who only fights at close range, they would need to be fast, move long distances in each turn, and hit hard enough to justify using them instead of using someone else with a gun. Couple that with small enough battle maps, and those melee fighters are starting to look pretty broken.

On a somewhat related note, I can't imagine why flight would have the utility you describe. How hard is it to shoot something that's airborne? Probably easier than hitting the same target while it's taking cover on the ground.

Overall, though, it's an interesting concept. If you can get this to play out something like the X-Com games, but in an SC universe, I'd probably have to declare it a success even if you ignore everything I've said above. Wink
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Re: Needed! Staff for Project!
« Reply #33 on: February 13, 2007, 06:49:41 pm »

Here comes 2 cents from someone who has no intention of getting involved beyond the "idea generation and criticism" phase. Wink

I think most of my criticims come in the form of your proposed ESP powers. Quite a lot of SC races show a propensity toward using ESP-style powers (or at least abilities that would resemble "magic" from a standard fantasy-setting game of this type). You seem to be overlooking these, and misapplying several of the ones you mentioned.

Races (considering background materials, dialog, and combat in SC1 & SC2 only) that possess ESP-type powers:

Pkunk - The Pkunk character is against the typical flow of Pkunk.
Chenjesu / presumably Chmmr - Unplayable
Orz - Unplayable
Syreen - "Placebo" effect (which might have negative effects at the end of battle), but you have a point. Maybe some offensive ESP for theese...
Mycon - Unplayable
Utwig - Defensive includes a more in-depth statistics reading of enemies, etc.
Arilou - Unplayable
Dnyarri - Unplayable
Ur-Quan / Kohr-Ah - Unplayable
Taalo - Unplayable
Human - Arilou tampering and it's only actually one Human, the player himself/herself.

Ranged vs. Melee - Some enemies have Electro Fields which improve defence against ranged attacks, others have flesh under armour which would need some phyisical movement to get to. Weapons also sometimes have ammo.

Might use the Speed Score system, good suggestion Cheesy.

Flight - Flying also makes you recieve heavier damage if your hit full pelt with a physical attack, meaning you end up hurtling towards the ground leaving a yehat/pkunk shaped crater in the ground. There's also the whole flaping of wings which makes steady co-ordination that bit harder.


Thanks for the suggestions dude! Keep it going Cheesy.

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Suprised no one has said anything about the Melnorme Bots :/...
« Last Edit: February 13, 2007, 06:51:42 pm by Neonlare » Logged

"would newton's law theory actually work if a Chmmr Avatar did a backwards pelvic thrust towards a planet and would this constitute an X=Y-0 in the part it ran straight into a Supox Blade and lasted long enough to survive?" - Elerium (as Valaggar)
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Re: Needed! Staff for Project!
« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2007, 08:03:05 pm »

Pkunk - The Pkunk character is against the typical flow of Pkunk.
Chenjesu / presumably Chmmr - Unplayable
Orz - Unplayable
Syreen - "Placebo" effect (which might have negative effects at the end of battle), but you have a point. Maybe some offensive ESP for theese...
Mycon - Unplayable
Utwig - Defensive includes a more in-depth statistics reading of enemies, etc.
Arilou - Unplayable
Dnyarri - Unplayable
Ur-Quan / Kohr-Ah - Unplayable
Taalo - Unplayable
Human - Arilou tampering and it's only actually one Human, the player himself/herself.

Despite these characters being playable or not, you're still going to need enemies to fight. While I realize you're trying to place emphasis on new races, it would be very unlikely that some old foes wouldn't return for repeat engagements.

A Pkunk going against the normal flow of the Pkunk... is a Yehat, really. I don't think it makes a lot of sense to give them offensive Psi abilities. It would likely be simpler all around to just swap the roles you have planned for the Syreen and Pkunk, especially since a Syreen healer only brings to mind memories of that mutated blue thing they called a Syreen in SCn3.

Now that you say that units in flight can be shot out of the sky, it seems even less likely that this is going to be a useful ability. Once again, why fly over the battlefield and make yourself an easy target, when you could simply advance under cover on the ground?

As far as Melnorme vend-o-bots go, I think it seems like a reasonable idea to have them available on starbases. After all, the Melnorme themselves are busy doing whatever research they do at Supergiant stars, but now that the Ur-Quan are no longer a threat, I imagine they would probably want to reestablish an extensive trading network like the one they presumably had before the first war started. On the other hand, I see no reason why all your trading should be done with the Melnorme; no doubt the locals would have their own equipment and artifacts that would be of interest. I see the vend-o-bots as simply taking the place of their masters; they should deal in exotic technologies, difficult to procure information, and universal commodoties (ie. fuel, ammo, etc.) in exchange for credits. Credits can be acquired through whatever means you see fit (I imagine they might be more interested in different things than they were in SC2; how much biological info do they really need? Similarly, I imagine they would know where all the rainbow worlds are by now). In contrast, local starbase merchants could sell all manner of different things: artifacts, racial weapons and other technologies, starship designs, etc. etc. etc. At least in the case of the starbase around Earth, I imagine they would probably want RU; how you intend to work that out is up to you. Other aliens might want RU, or perhaps something completely different (the Druuge spring to mind immediately, though it's questionable whether they would be willing to make deals with you at all).
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Re: Needed! Staff for Project!
« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2007, 08:25:47 pm »


Despite these characters being playable or not, you're still going to need enemies to fight. While I realize you're trying to place emphasis on new races, it would be very unlikely that some old foes wouldn't return for repeat engagements.

True, true, but they'll most likely have skills specialized to themselves, maybe some might be learnable, others might not.

A Pkunk going against the normal flow of the Pkunk... is a Yehat, really. I don't think it makes a lot of sense to give them offensive Psi abilities. It would likely be simpler all around to just swap the roles you have planned for the Syreen and Pkunk, especially since a Syreen healer only brings to mind memories of that mutated blue thing they called a Syreen in SCn3.

Again, a fair point, the thing is, a Pkunk against the normal cliche isn't exactly a Yehat, this Pkunk has a very high PSI rating compared to others, and is slightly anarchistic (In the sense that he thinks he's the only sane Pkunk there, despite the love he feels from his brothers, he doesn't feel like he fits in, nor do the Warrior-like Yehats appeal to him much.)

Now that you say that units in flight can be shot out of the sky, it seems even less likely that this is going to be a useful ability. Once again, why fly over the battlefield and make yourself an easy target, when you could simply advance under cover on the ground?

Naturally certain enemies can't hit you in the air, and there may be impassable terrains and as such, you might need this ability to attack the enemies weak point (for massive damage) and finish the battle. Another advantage is that the unit has an added boost to movement, which helps when trying to run from a formidable enemy.

As far as Melnorme vend-o-bots go, I think it seems like a reasonable idea to have them available on starbases. After all, the Melnorme themselves are busy doing whatever research they do at Supergiant stars, but now that the Ur-Quan are no longer a threat, I imagine they would probably want to reestablish an extensive trading network like the one they presumably had before the first war started.

 On the other hand, I see no reason why all your trading should be done with the Melnorme; no doubt the locals would have their own equipment and artifacts that would be of interest.

Somehow, I think it fits. The Melnorme are hardly going to sell wares to the Ur-Quan, and in this the Druuge sign a Contract with the Ur-Quan, which in a sense makes them Battle Thralls for Hire.

Also, the Command itself is almost always way too busy to sell weapons and such to units, and the fact that the Melnorme have "invested interests" in their actions, and their technological prowess, means that they are an ideal merchant.


I see the vend-o-bots as simply taking the place of their masters; they should deal in exotic technologies, difficult to procure information, and universal commodoties (ie. fuel, ammo, etc.) in exchange for credits.

Exactly, standard Blasters from the Star Control base won't exactly cut it against a collosus Ur-Quan, or tackle a Mycon. by having the Melnorme as the Merchants, all this extra special weapons that you get again and again seems to fit more logically, your hardly going to have a new weapon being sold at the Base each and every time you complete a mission, as they may all relly on the same kind of Tech, but Melnorme's Technology is un-stated and therefore unchallanged.

 Credits can be acquired through whatever means you see fit (I imagine they might be more interested in different things than they were in SC2; how much biological info do they really need? Similarly, I imagine they would know where all the rainbow worlds are by now).

Yesh, but that doesn't mean there aren't any Precursor "Widgets" that they might be interested in. Good suggestion about the data, maybe there can be sub classes to it (Mechanical, Biological, Cultural, etc) and they may have different demands about them.

In contrast, local starbase merchants could sell all manner of different things: artifacts, racial weapons and other technologies, starship designs, etc. etc. etc. At least in the case of the starbase around Earth, I imagine they would probably want RU; how you intend to work that out is up to you.

True, but the squad that you command is a "Secret Service" which is why you get to speak to the heads of the Operation in person. Of course, your actions are so secret, that you can't tell many people about it, and if you die, you will be denied of any existance.

Other aliens might want RU, or perhaps something completely different (the Druuge spring to mind immediately, though it's questionable whether they would be willing to make deals with you at all).

A valid point, but the Operatives of Star Control provide you with the necessary currencies needed to complete the various missions, kind of like the way the FBI offers Euros, Yen, etc for it's agents when abroad.


Yay Cheesy.

Anyone else have any more suggestions? The more feed back, the better Cheesy.
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Re: Needed! Staff for Project!
« Reply #36 on: February 13, 2007, 11:00:26 pm »

I'm still a little confused. So is the game like an RPG where you just walk around and amass a party, go into battles, etc?
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Re: Needed! Staff for Project!
« Reply #37 on: February 13, 2007, 11:21:55 pm »

Yeppers, but it still retains the Ship to Ship system that makes Star Control Cheesy.
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Re: Needed! Staff for Project!
« Reply #38 on: February 14, 2007, 12:20:57 am »

I guess thats the bit that confuses me, how are the ships integrated into the general game, and/or into the combat? Or is it like the ships ferry you from planet to planet, and then you and your party deal with whatever situation that occurs there?
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Re: Needed! Staff for Project!
« Reply #39 on: February 14, 2007, 12:23:58 am »

Hmm, idea.

Perhaps you could add boarding to the ship-to-ship battles? For example, if you weaken an enemy ship (say, to below 20% of its crew), you could bump into it and start a boarding battle, where your crew fights for control of the ship. (naturally, if you lost crew during the ship fight, you would have less people during the boarding party)

If you eliminate all the enemy crew, the ship would become yours and you could use/sell it.

Another suggestion: Replace M HP with Stamina or something, and replace Psi powers with Techniques. That way, you could also include non-mental abilties, like Mycon mutation, Umgah gene-tinkering (maybe you could heal people that way), and stuff like that.

BTW, I am right in assuming Psi powers lower your M HP when you use them?

Finally, I like how the vending-bots do a little happy dance when you buy something expensive. XD
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Quote from: Arne, on the origin of the Mycon
Maybe a precursor were just like "Hey I built this mushroom thing, it can traavel between plaaanets!" and the others were like "Yaaaay!" and then they all deliriously clapped their hands and giggled like little schoolgirls.
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Re: Needed! Staff for Project!
« Reply #40 on: February 14, 2007, 12:39:07 am »

Hmm, idea.

Perhaps you could add boarding to the ship-to-ship battles? For example, if you weaken an enemy ship (say, to below 20% of its crew), you could bump into it and start a boarding battle, where your crew fights for control of the ship. (naturally, if you lost crew during the ship fight, you would have less people during the boarding party) 

Nice idea! Didn't think of it like that, could be a good add-on.

If you eliminate all the enemy crew, the ship would become yours and you could use/sell it.

Another suggestion: Replace M HP with Stamina or something, and replace Psi powers with Techniques. That way, you could also include non-mental abilties, like Mycon mutation, Umgah gene-tinkering (maybe you could heal people that way), and stuff like that.

Naw, I don't see that, considering this group of  "Spies" are the "Elite" so there are going to be some ESPers. Also, Umgah and Mycon certainly aren't playable.

BTW, I am right in assuming Psi powers lower your M HP when you use them?

Yeppers, right on dude.

Finally, I like how the vending-bots do a little happy dance when you buy something expensive. XD

Thanks, I thought it might be too "Anime" for the hard-core fans of Star Control...

Aaaaanything else? I also encourage thoose who would like to help, please, please post with your skills, the more help, the merrier Cheesy.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2007, 12:44:44 am by Neonlare » Logged

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Re: Needed! Staff for Project!
« Reply #41 on: February 14, 2007, 12:56:41 am »

Quote from: Neonlare
Also, Umgah and Mycon certainly aren't playable.


Even if they aren't playable, they may be enemies, y'know.  Wink Just throwin' out ideas.


Also, frankly, most of the people here are just fans, not programmers/designers. Tongue  I might be able to help with writing or sprites if I get the chance, though.
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Quote from: Arne, on the origin of the Mycon
Maybe a precursor were just like "Hey I built this mushroom thing, it can traavel between plaaanets!" and the others were like "Yaaaay!" and then they all deliriously clapped their hands and giggled like little schoolgirls.
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Re: Needed! Staff for Project!
« Reply #42 on: February 14, 2007, 07:43:38 pm »

Aaaaanything else? I also encourage thoose who would like to help, please, please post with your skills, the more help, the merrier Cheesy.

As stated, I'm not likely to move past the "idea generation and criticism" phase. I have scant little programming skill, and artistic skill to match... I suppose I'm a passable writer, and could help work on a script, but I imagine almost anyone here could do the same.

What I am good at, however, is being a fount of endless (and often useless) ideas. This is why few of my own projects ever make it past the "idea generation and criticism" phase. Grin

As for how ship-to-ship vs. on-foot tactical combat should work, here's my 2 bits:

Ship-to-ship would take place in all standard engagements from SC2: Encounters in orbit, solar systems, and Hyperspace should all be resolved with standard melee-style combat (assuming diplomacy fails, anyway). On the other hand, any sort of planetary landing action, boarding hostile craft, or infiltrating enemy starbases and planetary facilities would be handled using the tactical system. I suppose, in essence, that this would essentially eliminate the lander minigame.

While I do think boarding actions are a great idea, I also think they should be very limited so they don't completely bog down the game. I think only the last ship in any given battlegroup should be vulnerable to boarding actions (otherwise their wingmen would destroy the enemy ship while it was docked). Also, boarding actions really shouldn't apply to certain ships; for example, attempting to board a Mycon vessel would likely be an exceedingly fatal experience for the boarders (what with the temperature being maintained at the melting point of lead and all), no boarding party would be insane enough to try to dock with a Shofiti Scout, etc.

Another issue relating to boarding parties is the concept of the required native captain; you might be able to capture an alien ship with little trouble, but when it comes to flying it, only a native of a given race will work. This means that you would probably end up selling most of your captured ships for scrap or breaking them down for their component technologies at the nearest starbase, since you likely won't have a native pilot in your crew. To this end, you're going to need a large "tug" ship in your fleet, similar to the Precursor vessel in SC2 (though that obviously doesn't exist anymore, nor is it possible to make more), to move around disabled ships. This may be something you would have to build yourself or procure during your mission, or you could just hand it to the player at the beginning, but either way it's necessary to move around your salvage without breaking it down into bite-size chunks. Of course, in relation to the next paragraph, the native captain issue might be somewhat mitigated.

It occurs to me that many of the races you claim as "unplayable" probably shouldn't be; it would be wise to create a comprehensive skillset for all "typical" members of a given race, and to differentiate special characters later. After all, you can potentially recruit members of nearly every spacefaring race (save the lone Ur-Quan that command their ships, and Slylandro probe-bots) using the Syreen special weapon. This opens up a lot of interesting possibilities, not least of which would be the ability to select boarding parties or insertion teams from your available crewmen of various races, choosing those that would be optimized to fight in a given environment.

Given that there is a good chance that you would be able to use team members from a wide variety of races (or that you would at least fight against them), I second the idea that special techniques should not all be based on psi powers.

I can't imagine why the Druuge, let alone anyone else, would want to have dealings with the Ur-Quan at all after the enslaving, extermination, and wars that they have been at the core of. The Druuge especially only escaped destruction at the hands (claws? tentacles?) of the Kohr-Ah, because of the timely detection of their rivals, and they know it. Besides, I don't think the Druuge would enter into negotiations with any race that they didn't feel they could take advantage of, and the Ur-Quan certainly don't seem gullible, nor desperate enough to accept aid from outsiders that are not enslaved to them.

Nobody said that the commander of a given starbase would be dealing in equipment. I imagine that the Earth starbase would probably have been converted to a somewhat more peacetime-oriented facility (sort of on the order of Deep Space 9: dedicated mostly to peacetime activities, but ready for trouble if the need to fight arises). As such, there would probably be various officers ready and willing to make trades in various capacities: A Materials Procurement officer who would convert raw materials into RU (or whatever currency), a Quartermaster who would issue military equipment and other supplies as need arises, and probably civilian merchants who would be willing to trade for goods that would be difficult or impossible to procure from official channels. This in addition to the services provided by the Melnorme could provide quite a lot of variety in what is on offer at any given location. Other races would likely maintain similar facilities, though with different needs and goods available for trade. Especially with the "secret service" nature of the protagonists that you mentioned, you probably should not be expecting official support from too many of the various racial commanders, but instead would have to deal with the locals in order blend in while procuring the equipment you would need to help complete your mission.
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Re: Needed! Staff for Project!
« Reply #43 on: February 14, 2007, 08:17:35 pm »

Quote
As stated, I'm not likely to move past the "idea generation and criticism" phase. I have scant little programming skill, and artistic skill to match... I suppose I'm a passable writer, and could help work on a script, but I imagine almost anyone here could do the same.

What I am good at, however, is being a fount of endless (and often useless) ideas. This is why few of my own projects ever make it past the "idea generation and criticism" phase.
Lawl, same here.

Some more speculation/ideas:

Perhaps having certain racial crew on your ships could help them in melee? For example, having a Pkunk on-board would give you the ability to generate psychic shields, or a very low chance of ressurecting, or something.

Who says you won't be able to recruit Mycon and Ur-Quan and the like other than hypnotizing them? Maybe a 'Quan will join your side for story reasons, or something...

Speaking of 'Quans, I'm not sure how they would work in a fight. Since we usually see them hanging from starship, I imagine in a fight they'd just flop around like slugs.... XD Instead of fighting , I suggest giving them special "Leadership" abilities, that you could "cast" on your other fighters to give them a temporary bonus to their stats. Of course, they'd have low move and attack to make up for it.
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Quote from: Arne, on the origin of the Mycon
Maybe a precursor were just like "Hey I built this mushroom thing, it can traavel between plaaanets!" and the others were like "Yaaaay!" and then they all deliriously clapped their hands and giggled like little schoolgirls.
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Re: Needed! Staff for Project!
« Reply #44 on: February 14, 2007, 08:50:26 pm »

Mmmm, I thought when the Syreen Ship used it's psi-abilities, it shoot out all the alien crew due to the fact it couldn't support them for long...

Ur-Quan would most likely be a huge boss fight, taking up most of the battle field, I'm hoping of having the first fight with one only revealing the front of the Ur-Quan, and any other encounters to have the full section/ They'd pummel you hard too...

No special abilities for alien crew on a ship, it's just not Melee, and it can seriously unbalance the system...

Like I've said before, the loss of the Sa-Matra, the Revolution of the Yehat, the Aparant Extinction of the Thraddash and Illwrath, and the Fjorn and Scheen joining forces with the Alliance have seriously crippled the Ur-Quan, bashing them backwards, against what would normally be expected, they actually need help. That's when the Druuge seize their opportunity. They did this, mainly because the Ur-Quan were expanding into their space, and if you can't beat them, join em. Or rather, get them pinned into an agreement. The Ur-Quan couldn't care much for it, because they need to win the war, then they'll start focusing on slaving again.

I might add a "Tactics" section for the non Psi races, but the Psi have to be unique otherwise there's really no point of them being there.

Like said, secret organization, you can't go willy nilly asking for weapons from stores without getting looks. Your not seen as "part of the military" who get standard equipment. Infact, like said before, they'll deny your existance is something goes horridly wrong.

Boarding of ships will most likely be in only special circumstances, like "Boss" ships and such forth. Boarding a small ship like the VUX Intruder doesn't seem useful, and especially when you can't pilot it.

No tug boating empty vessels, but the main ship will be upgradable.

Okay, here's some music I've selected that I think would suite the game so far, credit goes to the appropiate artists work!

http://www.savefile.com/files/491768

(The ones with numbers next to them means I'm not entirely sure about them, I'm quite set on Fjorn 2 though Cheesy.)
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