The Ur-Quan Masters Home Page Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
June 15, 2024, 01:43:47 pm
Home Help Search Login Register
News: Celebrating 30 years of Star Control 2 - The Ur-Quan Masters

+  The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum
|-+  The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release
| |-+  General UQM Discussion (Moderator: Death 999)
| | |-+  Melee Aggression
« previous next »
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 Print
Author Topic: Melee Aggression  (Read 12318 times)
Spektrowski
Frungy champion
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 77



View Profile
Re: Melee Aggression
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2007, 11:13:27 am »

Quote
Not a bad though except, if you are shofixti fighting a chenjesu you could keep your distance and when the time limit occurs you make a 23 credit profit if both ships disappear. UNLESS - they both go back into the fleet.
Yes, that was exactly what I meant when I said "exchanged" - both ships are teleported back to the fleet, and two new ones get in their place. Of course, the last melee match should still go on forever because there's no ships to call for replacement Smiley
Logged
Elvish Pillager
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 625



View Profile
Re: Melee Aggression
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2007, 11:50:09 am »

That would raise situations like this:

I have Orz out, and Shofixti left in my fleet. My opponent has only Chmmr left. If I lose this battle, then my best hope is to blow us both up. However, if I was able to do that, it would mean that I had done enough damage as Orz that if I had been using Shofixti first, I would have won. In all situations, it makes sense to use the Shofixti first, so I keep out of the way for a while in order to switch out.

Worse, it might become a meta-staring-contest if the Chmmr tried to avoid my Shofixti and switch me back to Orz.

There's an underlying problem with any gameplay effect after a time limit: The gameplay effect probably benefits one side or the other, so that side will try to waste time in order to get the effect. It's even worse than wasting time by fighting in a cowardly fashion, because here the purpose is to waste time.
Logged

My team of four Androsynth and three Chmmr is the most unfair team ever!
My mod
BlackSpathi
Zebranky food
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 15



View Profile
Re: Melee Aggression
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2007, 11:31:30 pm »

Then there should be an option for players to call a stalemate, if both players called it, only then do both ships go back into the fleet. So if 1 player doesnt want to change, there wont be a change. And players who want a long fight can have it.
Logged
Shiver
Guest


Email
Re: Melee Aggression
« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2007, 05:19:44 am »

Then there should be an option for players to call a stalemate, if both players called it, only then do both ships go back into the fleet. So if 1 player doesnt want to change, there wont be a change. And players who want a long fight can have it.

I'm pretty sure I saw a topic suggesting a similar feature years ago before we had online melee. It seems much more apt now.
Logged
Spektrowski
Frungy champion
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 77



View Profile
Re: Melee Aggression
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2007, 08:57:05 am »

Like "Offer draw" in chess? That can be really interesting.
Or another version of time limit, also similar to a chess rule - if no hits (including weapon on weapon, excluding weapon on asteroid/planet) were landed after x amount of time, an automatic stalemate is declared (in chess, there's a "40 moves" rule - if 40 moves are made in a game without moving a pawn or "eating" an enemy figure, a draw is declared).
Logged
AngusThermopyle
*Smell* controller
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 304


A paranoid android.


View Profile
Re: Melee Aggression
« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2007, 02:57:21 pm »

I really hope no one would play for a draw because they didn't want to lose their supremely powerful Zoq-Fot.  Tongue

Also, regarding PvP melee: amongst my local group of friends, we consider it a courtesy to select "Random" for the first fight. Is that something everyone else does too? Since the selection appears to be hidden, I cannot tell for sure.
Logged
Squisherxxx
Zebranky food
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 44



View Profile
Re: Melee Aggression
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2007, 03:47:34 pm »

Alot of stuff to go through, so here goes:
I'd like some opinions on Spathi vs Utwig.  over only had an aggression (or lack of) problem once in PVP and it was these ships - i was the Spathi and a rude twit who shall rename nameless was the Utwig.

I knew that i wouldnt last 5 seconds within his range - powerful weapons and top turn speed. So i did the usual spathi thing of tring to sneak in a nad drop butts on him from almost too longer range. This was painfully slow, however i was wearing him down. but it would have taken an hour to resolve the melee. Anyway he was boxing in waiting for me to fly within range. I refused and kept circling just in and out of range trying to hit him with the useless weapons at my disposal.

Technically if we go by the above mentioned rules - which seem to be best generally, i wasnt playing fair as i was the faster ship. however, the fight was progressing and was loath to just annihilate my spathi.

Okay some people are misinterpreting my original thread.  If ship 'A' is slowly damaging ship 'B' through attrition, it is a slow battle, but, clearly, one ship is bringing the pain.  This is not a stalemate.  In this example, both ships are aggressive, but the spathi is being aggressive at a distance with an attack that is dealing damage over time.  I have no problems with these battles, and I infact like them.
Logged
Squisherxxx
Zebranky food
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 44



View Profile
Re: Melee Aggression
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2007, 04:34:20 pm »

More to go through:
Squisher, I know we had a problem with an Arilou fight like this before but I think you were being a bit hypocritical. Let me explain. It was Arilou (me) against something or other and I was chain teleporting, hoping to land close to you for some easy hits. It was very time consuming and pissed you off pretty bad, but you used this exact Arilou tactic against me. Hell, I learned that tactic off you. You originally killed an Orz of mine by chain teleporting until you landed right alongside my Nemesis, then finished me off in one focused attack.
Okay, like you said, the chain teleporting put me into an advantageous position and allowed me to kill your orz - battle time maybe 2 minutes.  In our battle when you were airilou, I was a mrshmrrrr transformer.  In this situation, it is impossible for me to hit you in Y-form.  So I stand in x form and wait for you to engage.  But you dont.  you flee and run about, without trying to get into range.   I wouldnt have even minded if you kept on mass teleporting, as it would only be a matter of time till you kill yourself, but you didnt.  You continually just stayed on the opposite side of the map, then when i fly over you would teleport and sit on the other side of the map.  You were making no attempt to try to engage.


The range of the Orz cannon when shot in the opposite direction that you are moving is very long. I'm not firing like that because I expect you to chase me, I'm doing it so I can get you from maximum distance without placing my expensive and fragile Nemesis in harm's way.
Test this, and you will realize it is false.  The cannon has a set range, however, when you are moving in the same direction as your bullet, it appears to have a shorter range, as its distance from you is shorter, when in fact its absolute distance is the same whether fired forward or backwards.

While limpeted, I've noticed that Kohr-Ah can still kill off a careless VUX pilot so it seems fair to me that a Kohr-Ah will fight for every inch against a winning VUX by dropping blades and flamewalls.
Certain ships can fire backwards, being able to temporarily hold off a vux or kill it.  Ships that can attack rearward are: Androsynth,Arilou,Chmrr,Earthling,Kohr-Ah,Orz,Syreen,Ur-Quan,Vux.
However, there is absolutly nothing you can do to prevent further limpeting.  If you have 10 limpets on you, it is trivial for the vux to get annother 50 on you.  So from your point of view, it really doesnt matter which way you are facing, as you are solely relying on your rear/omni firing weapon to take out the vux from now on.  So I dont see how giving your back is a problem.  And while we are talking about aggression, condider the Orz.  If I am Vux and I limpet you to death, I will most likely still die when trying to finish you off with the laser, as you will howitzer my ass.  If winning was of absolute importance over gameplay, I would just stay all the way across the map from you, waiting (a very long time) for an asteroid to collide with you and eventually send you into the planet.  That would be the most boring game ever.  Doing so would be a gauranteed win for Vux, but it isnt sportsman like; the vux should engage and try for the kill.

Squisher, I know we had a problem with an Arilou fight like this before but I think you were being a bit hypocritical. Let me explain. It was Arilou (me) against something or other and I was chain teleporting, hoping to land close to you for some easy hits. It was very time consuming and pissed you off pretty bad, but you used this exact Arilou tactic against me. Hell, I learned that tactic off you. You originally killed an Orz of mine by chain teleporting until you landed right alongside my Nemesis, then finished me off in one focused attack.
[/quote]
Okay, like you said, the chain teleporting put me into an advantageous position and allowed me to kill your orz - battle time maybe 2 minutes.  In our battle when you were airilou, I was a mrshmrrrr transformer.  In this situation, it is impossible for me to hit you in Y-form.  So I stand in x form and wait for you to engage.  But you dont.  you flee and run about, without trying to get into range.   I wouldnt have even minded if you kept on mass teleporting, as it would only be a matter of time till you kill yourself, but you didnt.  You continually just stayed on the opposite side of the map, then when i fly over you would teleport and sit on the other side of the map.  You were making no attempt to try to engage.


Oh yeah, and the Androsynth bubble bath? I hate that stupid tactic but it seems like it's fair game against ships that can easily destroy your blazer form. I'm talking about the Slylandro and Arilou.
I dont mind bubble strats, as long as the androsynth is making passes across a ship.  Even circular bubble walls can be penetrated - its not a standoff.  I hate an andro just keeps flying AWAY from the opponent dropping bubbles, That is, I hate when the match is some ship continually chasing the andro and avoiding the bubbles.  Specific match example would be illrath vs andro.  If both play defensive and the andro doesnt go blazer attack, the match can last forever, as its impossible for either to hit the opponent.
Logged
countchocula86
*Smell* controller
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 345


Culture 20!


View Profile
Re: Melee Aggression
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2007, 05:37:45 pm »

Maybe its a tactic.....an angry pilot is a bad pilot, and will make mistakes.
Logged

I like to think you killed a man. It's the romantic in me.
Cedric6014
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 701



View Profile
Re: Melee Aggression
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2007, 08:08:45 pm »

Unfortunately protocols, with all the best intentions, leave too much room for creative interpretation. also, clearly people wont agree on them.

The best answers are mechanical - implementing a time limit or a stalemate system - I like the 'no hits' rule suggested by Spektrowski
Logged

Play online melee here! http://irc.uqm.stack.nl/
Elvish Pillager
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 625



View Profile
Re: Melee Aggression
« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2007, 09:12:58 pm »

The best answers are mechanical - implementing a time limit or a stalemate system - I like the 'no hits' rule suggested by Spektrowski
That rule has the same problem I suggested above (Chmmr vs. Orz out and Shofixti in reserve)

Mechanical solutions seem like they always encourage one player, and not the other, to stalemate, as opposed to the current situation, where both players are basically forced to agree not to delay forever. And, ideally, no one should be trying to cause a boring stalemate.
Logged

My team of four Androsynth and three Chmmr is the most unfair team ever!
My mod
Spektrowski
Frungy champion
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 77



View Profile
Re: Melee Aggression
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2007, 11:21:59 pm »

Is that possible for Chmmr to avoid any possible weapons collisions, including Orz howitzer shells/Shofixti pea shooter bullets shot down by Zapsats? The Avatar may be a strong ship, but quickness certainly isn't its main feature Smiley
The idea is tracking down any weapon/ship or weapon/weapon hits (there are many possibilities, from Zapsats or Earthling point defence shooting down projectiles to, say, Umgah burning an Orz marine in their plasma cone or Kohr-Ah implementing their corona to fend off Ur-Quan fighters). It may be a hell to program, though...
Logged
Holocat
Frungy champion
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 84



View Profile
Re: Melee Aggression
« Reply #27 on: February 13, 2007, 01:50:54 am »

Is that possible for Chmmr to avoid any possible weapons collisions, including Orz howitzer shells/Shofixti pea shooter bullets shot down by Zapsats? The Avatar may be a strong ship, but quickness certainly isn't its main feature Smiley
The idea is tracking down any weapon/ship or weapon/weapon hits (there are many possibilities, from Zapsats or Earthling point defence shooting down projectiles to, say, Umgah burning an Orz marine in their plasma cone or Kohr-Ah implementing their corona to fend off Ur-Quan fighters). It may be a hell to program, though...

I think the exploit happens in the other direction in that case.  If the Orz player stalemates this match (by not firing), he wins as both ships are just gone.  If you use the 'return to fleet' rule, it can still go on forever, or the Orz player can call up a more advantagous situation by using the shofixiti bomb and then being able to switch back to the Orz.

I'm not a fan of random battle myself, playing mostly 1v1 in my childhood.  However, the point of randomness is that you are, for the duration, 'stuck' with your ship;  Stalemating back to fleet rules tend to eliminate this problem, as you can just waffle until you have an advantagous ship (which the other person will seek to waffle out of).  Stalemating causing both ships to be removed from play favours large fleets of cheap (and probably fast) ships.

In short, what I think Cedric is saying is that these rules are exploitable.  I agree.
Logged
Shiver
Guest


Email
Re: Melee Aggression
« Reply #28 on: February 13, 2007, 07:17:50 am »

Okay, like you said, the chain teleporting put me into an advantageous position and allowed me to kill your orz - battle time maybe 2 minutes.  In our battle when you were airilou, I was a mrshmrrrr transformer.  In this situation, it is impossible for me to hit you in Y-form.  So I stand in x form and wait for you to engage.  But you dont.  you flee and run about, without trying to get into range.   I wouldnt have even minded if you kept on mass teleporting, as it would only be a matter of time till you kill yourself, but you didnt.  You continually just stayed on the opposite side of the map, then when i fly over you would teleport and sit on the other side of the map.  You were making no attempt to try to engage.

My memory is a little hazy, but I'm pretty sure you're just making things up now. I BS'd you on purpose only once during that match and it was with the Androsynth for the purpose of seeing how you adapted. I think I may have even gotten bored and blazed with it eventually. With the Arilou, my chain teleport technique is rather slow because I wait for my energy to fill up before teleporting again. This is so if I land next to my opponent I can do as much damage as possible. I remember doing this exact thing against you in melee.

Quote
Test this, and you will realize it is false.  The cannon has a set range, however, when you are moving in the same direction as your bullet, it appears to have a shorter range, as its distance from you is shorter, when in fact its absolute distance is the same whether fired forward or backwards.

Functionally speaking, the rear mounted cannon is much safer. Even against a stationary opponent you're slightly better off using the rear cannon because you can lob shells the instant you get within range and throttle away instead of having to spin around within the other player's weapon range. Of course, ships like the Earthling, Druuge and Kohr-Ah are better fought with a front-mounted cannon but against all of those you really should be using marines instead if you want to win.
Logged
Spektrowski
Frungy champion
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 77



View Profile
Re: Melee Aggression
« Reply #29 on: February 13, 2007, 09:27:53 am »

Chmmr have a very simple way to avoid any stalemating - their tractor beam, isn't it counted as a weapon? Smiley
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!