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Author Topic: Melee Aggression  (Read 11965 times)
Squisherxxx
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Re: Melee Aggression
« Reply #30 on: February 13, 2007, 03:35:09 pm »

With the Arilou, my chain teleport technique is rather slow because I wait for my energy to fill up before teleporting again. This is so if I land next to my opponent I can do as much damage as possible. I remember doing this exact thing against you in melee.
So, as it only takes 0.5 seconds to regenerate the energy from a 4 energy teleport, you are trying to tell me that you were teleporting 2 times per second?   Because if that is what you are trying to tell me, then THAT is BS.
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Valaggar
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Re: Melee Aggression
« Reply #31 on: February 13, 2007, 05:39:21 pm »

Stalemating isn't an issue if both players behave normally. In standard games it shouldn't be practiced. In tournaments, a referee may be needed.
The fact is, there is no situation when whoever attacks, loses. So, generally, the faster ship should act aggressively. They could program that after x amount of time, if the faster ship hasn't reacted aggressively, the PC takes control of its engines and directs it towards the enemy with low skill.
Ah, there COULD be a situation when whoever attacks, loses: Arilou by-the-planet ambushes. Let's say there's such a ship that would win against the Arilou unless ambushed by him by-the-planet. Still, the fastest ship should attack. Or perhaps, the one with the most chances should attack.
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Elvish Pillager
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Re: Melee Aggression
« Reply #32 on: February 13, 2007, 09:09:43 pm »

The fact is, there is no situation when whoever attacks, loses.

Actually, there are quite a few such situations, or at least ones where either player would be quite better off being attacked than attacking. For examples, Ilwrath vs. Mmrnmhrm, Supox vs. Zoq-Fot, and Androsynth vs. Androsynth.
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Spektrowski
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Re: Melee Aggression
« Reply #33 on: February 13, 2007, 09:23:31 pm »

Supox vs. ZFP battles are quite epic in their own right Smiley
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Stalks-Death
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Re: Melee Aggression
« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2007, 11:06:24 pm »

I've got no problem with the androsynth bubbling away. The ship is made for that (If someone is frustrated by the androsynth's lenghty bubbling... you must ban spathi from your games)...and so far i haven't met anyone to manage an ungodly amount of kills with an androsynth vs me. It doesn't have that much health.

I play for the fun of it, if a fight turns out to be boring, i'll suicide (example: spathi vs avatar...).

The VUX is a particular ship, because the "coup de grace" is always a risky affair. It's an art of itself actually (especially if, as the camera zooms in, the planet starts to pull or an asteroid collides). The laser is awesome, but many ships can affect you still from behind...from the umgah to the ur-quan

Play for fun and, anyway, if someone infuriates you...just don't play him/her again.
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Shiver
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Re: Melee Aggression
« Reply #35 on: February 14, 2007, 03:22:06 am »

So, as it only takes 0.5 seconds to regenerate the energy from a 4 energy teleport, you are trying to tell me that you were teleporting 2 times per second?   Because if that is what you are trying to tell me, then THAT is BS.

Never during ANY multiplayer match have I sat on the edge of the screen with a faster ship indefinitely. You are either lying or have a very distorted memory. Given that you frequently play UQM high, I would assume the latter.
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Terrell
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Re: Melee Aggression
« Reply #36 on: February 14, 2007, 05:04:07 am »

I don't think that it's at all unfair or wrong for a faster ship to counter pillboxing tactics by simply refusing to go into range of the opponent's gun.  If your opponent won't use tactics that play into your tactics, then you may just have to change your tactics, rather than trying to make your opponent change his. 

The whole point of playing against another player, is that a human opponent will adjust his tactics to counter yours, much more readily than an AI opponent.  I don't think that there should be a referee or a system that requires you to change ships if you don't attack or hit your opponent in a certain amount of time.
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Squisherxxx
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Re: Melee Aggression
« Reply #37 on: February 14, 2007, 09:57:11 pm »

I don't think that it's at all unfair or wrong for a faster ship to counter pillboxing tactics by simply refusing to go into range of the opponent's gun.  If your opponent won't use tactics that play into your tactics, then you may just have to change your tactics, rather than trying to make your opponent change his. 

That is the exact thinking that causes this.  It is the duty of the faster ship to engage.  Pillboxing is a tactic of a ship with long range and slow speed.  It is pointless to chase a faster ship when the distance between you is dictated 100% by the fast ship (this is for a noticable speed differance, not a slight one).   By your logic, a fast ship can just prance around indefinatly until the slow ship changes his tactic to a rediculous one.  That is not strategy, that is boring.  Look at the game from a fun factor point of view rather than one to win at all costs.  Press the action and engage.

As for Shiver, you wrote, "My memory is a little hazy" so dont bring my memory into it.  I never said you waited across the screen "indefinatly"  but a 10 minute fight is far longer than it should be for arilou vs transformer.   Think about your comments before you contradict yourself again.
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Holocat
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Re: Melee Aggression
« Reply #38 on: February 15, 2007, 07:36:29 am »

I don't think that it's at all unfair or wrong for a faster ship to counter pillboxing tactics by simply refusing to go into range of the opponent's gun.  If your opponent won't use tactics that play into your tactics, then you may just have to change your tactics, rather than trying to make your opponent change his. 

That is the exact thinking that causes this.  It is the duty of the faster ship to engage.  Pillboxing is a tactic of a ship with long range and slow speed.  It is pointless to chase a faster ship when the distance between you is dictated 100% by the fast ship (this is for a noticable speed differance, not a slight one).   By your logic, a fast ship can just prance around indefinatly until the slow ship changes his tactic to a rediculous one.  That is not strategy, that is boring.  Look at the game from a fun factor point of view rather than one to win at all costs.  Press the action and engage.

Forcing a slower ship to do something stupid, like chase, is poor gamesmanship, yes.  However, forcing a light, fast ship to charge a large, heavy ship's guns is equally poor gamesmanship. 

Light ships don't charge heavier ships;  They bait, they snipe, but *requiring* someone to hit you when there's a fair to good chance you can hit them back way, WAY harder is like asking someone to politely fall on your sword and stop moving around and dodging like that, since it's taking too long to chop them into liver bits.

You could say that you don't want to chase, and that is fair.  However, how fair is it to then force the other player to chase you?  'The faster ship must be aggressive' is little different than saying 'The faster ship must chase and fire on the slower ship at all times.'  According to some on this thread you apparently have to hit too;  No time for tricky leyland passes now, if you don't hit him in the next ten seconds the computer will take over and thrust you right into his jaws.  Wonderful.  Roll Eyes

Assuming the faster ship pilot is a slimy eel that's isn't worth a rusty dime's worth of trust and hard coding it such that a fast ship pilot's watched so that he MUST hit X times in X timeframe isn't, in my opinion, a terribly endearing thing to do.

To close, I more or less agree with the other nays on this thread;  Some ships aren't designed to fight nose to nose, and if someone pillboxes, it shouldn't be expected that the other pilot drop his or her pants and bend over.
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Cedric6014
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Re: Melee Aggression
« Reply #39 on: February 15, 2007, 09:57:14 am »

damn straight!
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Re: Melee Aggression
« Reply #40 on: February 15, 2007, 07:27:29 pm »

Despite the repeated slander, I have to say I agree with Squisher's assessment of what's fair and what isn't.

Forcing a slower ship to do something stupid, like chase, is poor gamesmanship, yes.  However, forcing a light, fast ship to charge a large, heavy ship's guns is equally poor gamesmanship.

Wrong. The most extreme example of pillboxing I can think of is Utwig vs Pkunk. If I am a stationary Utwig, what do you do? Send an instant message that says "I can't get close to you without dying, I'm not attacking"? Don't be moronic. As anyone experienced with online melee will tell you, some ships counter others. That same Utwig which shreded your precious fastship is guaranteed to lose to a VUX.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2007, 07:33:02 pm by Shiver » Logged
Holocat
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Re: Melee Aggression
« Reply #41 on: February 15, 2007, 08:16:03 pm »

Utwig?  With its turning rate I don't see why it can't just blunder about;  It might not catch up but it's not terribly likely that someone's going to catch it on the flanks by suprise, unless it's spending a lot of time weaving around.

The classic starcastle situation, to me, is a Dreadnought vs. a Skiff.  The skiff can close, and it is juuuuuust nimble enough to evade that dreadnought's ever-slightly-too-slow gun and get onto a flank for a battery full of autolaser nastyness, but it's very iffy business, and that arilou pilot can spend quite a bit of time bobbing in, realizeing (s)he doesn't have a good angle, bob out, and bob in again, over and over.  As you yourself have learned, chain teleporting can work, but it's even less reliable that bobing and weaving, in my opinion, not to mention mildly dangerous;  I've teleported right in front of someone's gun barrel as well as right beside/behind, to my quick and excruciating demise.  That's happened to me more often that teleportation inside of planets, frankly.

Utwig v Pkunk is a battle that isn't as clear cut as you might think;  Ships that clearly beat another do so by literally beating the snot out of the opponent, no matter what (s)he does.  Androsynth vs. Earthling, for instance.  When you think about it, there are very few instances where one ship will clearly counter another, and there are always wily and desperate things for a captain with the short end of the stick to try.  In either ship in this situation, the planet seems to offer the only solution, however slight.
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Elvish Pillager
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Re: Melee Aggression
« Reply #42 on: February 15, 2007, 09:53:16 pm »

The faster ship has a duty to try to deal damage, because the faster ship is the one that chooses whether any damage is done or not.

Of course, this goes only for situations where one ship can avoid the other (and it doesn't have to be by speed, either.)
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Shiver
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Re: Melee Aggression
« Reply #43 on: February 16, 2007, 01:28:31 am »

Utwig v Pkunk is a battle that isn't as clear cut as you might think[...]

No, it's very clear cut. Any halfway concious Utwig pilot can beat a Pkunk unless it revives a dozen times.
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countchocula86
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Re: Melee Aggression
« Reply #44 on: February 16, 2007, 03:50:51 am »

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No, it's very clear cut. Any halfway concious Utwig pilot can beat a Pkunk unless it revives a dozen times.

Thats only if the Pkunk blindly charges in against the Utwig. There is absolutely no reason a Pkunk can't beat an Utwig. It just takes patience. That doesn't mean the Utwig can sit around whining that the Pkunk isn't engaging. Find a planet, use its gravity to accelerate.
 Or analyze the Pkunks movements and strike when the Pkunk thinks you're just lying in wait. Ooh but then the Pkunk might devise a new strategy! Oh my, the wonderful possibilities of space combat.
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