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Valaggar
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Re: Star Control - The RPG/Board Game
« Reply #30 on: February 28, 2007, 03:25:53 pm »

Interesting. I like also the fact that it allows for tactical multiship battles, but are you going to make also a computer program for playing this board game or just post the rules and graphics?
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Re: Star Control - The RPG/Board Game
« Reply #31 on: February 28, 2007, 04:45:18 pm »

There exists a multitude of "Virtual RPG desktops" that include dice-rollers and map windows with miniature handling, including ScreenMonkey and the free (but clunky) Web-RPG.  At this time, I don't plan to attempt to code one specifically tuned towards this game.  But you never know. Wink
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Re: Star Control - The RPG/Board Game
« Reply #32 on: February 28, 2007, 05:20:35 pm »

Clay just won the forum. Cheesy

What else do you plan to add to the rules? (crew, special actions, etc)
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Maybe a precursor were just like "Hey I built this mushroom thing, it can traavel between plaaanets!" and the others were like "Yaaaay!" and then they all deliriously clapped their hands and giggled like little schoolgirls.
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Re: Star Control - The RPG/Board Game
« Reply #33 on: February 28, 2007, 05:49:59 pm »

Well first off, need to add two things I forgot for the draft:
Range:  for every 5 squares of range, reduce your ATTACK die by 1.  It cannot be reduced below d4.
VUX: have a random chance similar to PKUNK ressurection.  Roll any die...on an odd result, ship is placed within two hexes and facing another ship of choice at the game's start.

Now onto ADDITIONAL things

A) Planet rules, including gravity whipping and collisions
B) Asteroid rules
C) Rules on destroying tokens
D) Captain quirks.  Special abilities and weaknesses that you can optionally randomly assign to your ships.  Like Sure Shot: ATTACK die is never reduced by range and Nine Lives: Once a game, an attack that would normally destroy a ship reduces it to 1/2 a crew and Gravity Sucker: PILOT is reduced to d4 for all planetary maneuvers.
E) Now the big one.  Strategy game and scenarios.  In the vein of SC1, but with scenarios also based on major SC2 events.
F) Ship construction system.

And that's about it.  There may be something I've forgot...I'll edit the post if I think of anything. ^_^
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Re: Star Control - The RPG/Board Game
« Reply #34 on: February 28, 2007, 10:43:40 pm »

In SC2, when Ilwrath fire while cloaked, they automatically uncloak facing the enemy. You might want to put that in the rules.
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Re: Star Control - The RPG/Board Game
« Reply #35 on: February 28, 2007, 11:49:44 pm »

I assumed this was placed in the game because it is difficult for the Player to determine his or her own facing.  This is obviously not an issue in the boardgame, where cloaking simply raises the PILOT die to d12, as opposed to making anyone invisible (for obvious reasons).

But if the Ilwrath having to manually direct its facing truly gimps an already gimpy ship, I'm open to changing it.
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Re: Star Control - The RPG/Board Game
« Reply #36 on: March 01, 2007, 02:30:29 pm »

Will there be any "Precursor upgrades" like in Star Control 1?
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Re: Star Control - The RPG/Board Game
« Reply #37 on: March 01, 2007, 07:03:17 pm »

^Speaking of that, do you plan to include the Flagship?
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Quote from: Arne, on the origin of the Mycon
Maybe a precursor were just like "Hey I built this mushroom thing, it can traavel between plaaanets!" and the others were like "Yaaaay!" and then they all deliriously clapped their hands and giggled like little schoolgirls.
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Re: Star Control - The RPG/Board Game
« Reply #38 on: March 01, 2007, 09:43:40 pm »

Yes to precursor upgrades, a no for now for the flagship.  Since it will be a player v. player type game, the Flagship is sort of a one-sided bonus that I don't feel is appropriate.  (And flagship v. flagship has no game basis).  But if by some miracle I finish everything else, I would definitely throw together some stats/customizing options for a flagship.

For now, the game hasn't been played.  At all.  Creating some tokens and maps so people can try out the game is my next priority. ^_^  I hate to admit it, but it's possible this is a case of "looks good on paper...plays very poorly."  Need to rule that out before planning too far ahead.
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Re: Star Control - The RPG/Board Game
« Reply #39 on: March 01, 2007, 11:29:45 pm »

If you make some tokens/ a game board,  I should be able to round up a few of my friends to play it and give you feedback.  Grin
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Maybe a precursor were just like "Hey I built this mushroom thing, it can traavel between plaaanets!" and the others were like "Yaaaay!" and then they all deliriously clapped their hands and giggled like little schoolgirls.
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Re: Star Control - The RPG/Board Game
« Reply #40 on: March 01, 2007, 11:40:56 pm »

This is some nice work, Clay. Of course, this means I'm going to nitpick at it in an effort (possibly misguided) to make it better. Wink

First of all, I spotted this:

Quote
B) Turn the ship one side to the left or right by spending 1 TURN point and may continue to do so until THRUST points have been reduced to zero.

I'm assuming that "THRUST" is supposed to say "TURN" and that this is a simple typo.

Now for some clarifications and suggestions:

First, a point of clarification about attacking: Can you use your main and special attacks in the same turn? I was under the impression that you could, but the "Free Action" rule in the Pkunk Fury's description seems to imply otherwise.

Is there a limit to the number of reflex actions you can use? I think I'm confused about this because I'm not really clear on how these work. Let's look at a couple of examples (assume, in all cases, that my reflex roll was successful).

I am flying an Earthling Cruiser against two enemy Thraddash Torches. All have full batteries, and it is the Torch player's turn. Both use their main guns against my Cruiser, and I want to use my point defense to shoot those projectiles down. Can I use two reflex actions to do so, or am I limited to only one? Will one reflex action be enough anyway, due to the multitargeting nature of the Cruiser's point defense (or is this a moot point, since they are two separate attack actions at two separate times, each requiring a separate reflex roll)?

Let's take the above example, but replace those Torches with a Supox Blade, also with full battery. The Blade declares its attack action, and decides to expend its entire battery on 4 shots. How is the reflex action handled for this? Since the Blade only makes one attack roll, it seems to imply that only 1 reflex roll is required to intercept all 4 shots. Or instead, does it require 4 separate reflex rolls?

Above example again, but replace the Blade with an Ur-Quan Dreadnought. The Dreadnought fires its fusion cannon, and I attempt to shoot it down with point defense. Is this even possible? It certainly isn't in UQM, since the fusion bolt is far too resilient, but the way the reflex action rules are currently written seem to imply that the attack is negated despite that (note bolded text):

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After you have rolled your ATTACK roll, but before the opponent rolls their pilot die, they may state they want to use a reflex action.  They roll a d12 instead of their PILOT die.  If they beat your attack roll, their reflex ability is used.  Besides any effects as a result of that ability, your attack also misses.  If their reflex roll is lower than your ATTACK, they roll PILOT as normal.

Another example, same ships as above, except that this time, the Dreadnought launches a fighter which manages to get into a hex adjacant to my Cruiser. Now according to the rules for fighters, it should automatically deal damage without a pilot roll. But am I still able to avoid this by using a reflex action to shoot it down? Or do I have to wait for my turn (and take damage that no half competent Cruiser pilot would ever suffer in UQM) before I can fry the fighter with an explicit attack action?

Last example. Let's return to the very first scenario with the pair of Torches, but replace my ship with a Spathi Eluder. The Eluder does not have any explicitly defined reflex actions. Is there a "generic" reflex action that any ship can take to force attacks to miss, or does there need to be an explicitly defined option in order for reflex actions to even be available?

Wait, one last thing. Let's say, in any given Cruiser example, I fail my reflex roll. While it means I was too slow with my point defense to shoot down whatever attack, do I expend battery power for firing the laser anyway? Or is it simply treated as if it were never fired at all?

Enough about reflexes, on to other things.

One of the primary things that struck me when reading your descriptions was the concept of "fractional crewmen," AKA weapons inflicting 1/2 point of damage. Not only does this not make a lot of sense (and generate disturbing mental images of what half a crewman would look like and how he/she/it could possibly function in such a state), it also leads to some strange and awkward scenarios (for example, using the Syreen's special to drain away all but the last enemy crewman (though the rules do not explicitly state that the last crewman does not bail out), but since its main gun only inflicts 1/2 damage, still requiring 2 shots to finish its opponent off). My suggestion is to simply double all damage values and crew complements; it is much simpler to deal only with whole numbers.

Incidentally, I feel the above should also apply to battery consumption and regeneration. However, I realize there is probably no other way to represent the truly awful regen rate on the Mauler than with fractional values. However, there really is no good reason any other ship should have to deal with them.

Now, I would be remiss if I didn't make some comments on various individual ships:

Arilou: Shouldn't that laser always be pointed straight at the enemy (or straight ahead against a cloaked Ilwrath)? As it stands now, it seems like it would be quite powerful for shooting down all manner of hazards (limpets, Kohr-Ah discs, marines, etc.) which it would be hard pressed to handle in UQM.
Chenjesu: It's probably worth mentioning that the Broodhome is not damaged by its own crystals when they scatter.
Chmmr: In the ZapSat point defense section, you may want to mention that they will intercept tokens as well (eg. fighters, marines, limpets, etc.), even if they do not inflict direct damage.
Druuge: What is the thrust value in parenthesis for?
Earthling: I know I mentioned this above, but it bears mentioning again: Can point defense strike multiple targets with a single shot? For example, let's say a Cruiser has limpets in 3 adjacant hexes on its turn, and wants to shoot them down with point defense. Does the pilot need to fire 3 separate times, or will one shot bring them all down? Suffice to say, UQM uses the latter, but I can understand why that might be too powerful an ability under the current rules.
Ilwrath: I'm surprised the Avenger has no reflex actions, since both of its functions (the cloak especially, though I can't even describe the huge variety of projectiles the AI has shot down with that flamethrower over the years) seem well suited for this purpose.
Kohr-Ah: You never finished the "limited homing" description, it ends rather abruptly (though the meaning is clear despite that). Also, the mines do not damage the Marauder itself, at least in UQM, and that is not mentioned. Finally, it is probably worth mentioning that the limited homing function would only track against enemy ships, not allied ones nor the Marauder itself.
Melnorme: The "automatic hit" ability needs to be expanded on. It should include the stipulation that it will not take effect unless the Trader is charging a shot at the time, and that the automatic hit will also automatically discharge said shot. You may want to include the Trader's ability to defend against attacks originating from its front hex with a fully charged shot (since in UQM, a red charge can be used to block many projectiles). While charging, the Trader's REGEN attribute should drop to 0. While maintaining a charge, it should also be noted that the EM Pulse cannot be used. Finally, the EM Pulse should not be able to be intercepted or destroyed by any means, only dodged.
Pkunk: The rapid fire rule should probably not use the term "be destroyed," but rather "take damage as normal." Also, I just want to say that this ship's design made me chuckle. Between having to actually insult your opponent and randomly throwing the ship onto the board when reincarnating, it sounds like a blast to use just for humor value alone. Smiley
Shofixti: It might be worth adding that avoiding damage from the Glory Device using reflex actions is impossible unless you are on the outer edge of the blast (ie. 3 hexes away), and using a movment action to move outside of the range. Otherwise, you could potentially use something like point defense or the Umgah antimatter cone to avoid damage.
Thraddash: This ship also has an unexplained thrust value in parenthesis.
Umgah: The reverse jump seems like a perfectly logical evasion reflex.
Utwig: The Jugger cannot fire its main gun while its shields are up, nor can its shields negate (or absorb) damage from planetary collisions.
VUX: When you describe limpets as reducing "PILOT by 1," are you referring to subtracting from the die roll (ie. Earthling with 1 limpet would be reduced from d8 to d8-1), or reducing the actual die rolled to the next lowest polyhedron (ie. Earthling with 1 limpet would be reduced from d8 to d6)? It seems to imply the latter, but is not clear. Also, it is worth mentioning that a reincarnating Fury will instantly clear all limpets from its hull (at least in UQM).
Yehat: Like the Jugger, the Terminator cannot fire while its shields are up, nor can its shields negate damage from planet collisions. Also, it is worth mentioning that under the current rules, a Terminator can shield indefinitely, effectively reducing almost any battle to a stalemate.
ZoqFotPik: Like the Fury, The tri-attack rule should probably not use the term "be destroyed," but rather "take damage as normal."

Anyway, that's my long-winded two bits. It bears mentioning that I think this project has great potential and is a cool idea, which is why I'm critiquing it in this much length. Grin
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Re: Star Control - The RPG/Board Game
« Reply #41 on: March 02, 2007, 12:25:50 am »

I do not like the lack of momentum. Your ship moving sideways without changing facing is very important in the real game.

I've played board games with momentum, and it wasn't that hard to do, but it wasn't done on a hex grid. Also, the squares were tiny.
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Re: Star Control - The RPG/Board Game
« Reply #42 on: March 02, 2007, 12:39:33 am »

This is some nice work, Clay. Of course, this means I'm going to nitpick at it in an effort (possibly misguided) to make it better. Wink

First of all, I spotted this:

Quote
B) Turn the ship one side to the left or right by spending 1 TURN point and may continue to do so until THRUST points have been reduced to zero.

I'm assuming that "THRUST" is supposed to say "TURN" and that this is a simple typo.

You'd be correct. Smiley

Quote
Now for some clarifications and suggestions:

First, a point of clarification about attacking: Can you use your main and special attacks in the same turn? I was under the impression that you could, but the "Free Action" rule in the Pkunk Fury's description seems to imply otherwise.
I went back and forth on this.  For now, you can do both.  If this makes some ships too powerful, I may revert to one or the other.

Quote
Is there a limit to the number of reflex actions you can use? I think I'm confused about this because I'm not really clear on how these work. Let's look at a couple of examples (assume, in all cases, that my reflex roll was successful).
In all cases, as long as you meet the requirements (ie. battery consumption) you can use a reflex action.

Quote
I am flying an Earthling Cruiser against two enemy Thraddash Torches. All have full batteries, and it is the Torch player's turn. Both use their main guns against my Cruiser, and I want to use my point defense to shoot those projectiles down. Can I use two reflex actions to do so, or am I limited to only one? Will one reflex action be enough anyway, due to the multitargeting nature of the Cruiser's point defense (or is this a moot point, since they are two separate attack actions at two separate times, each requiring a separate reflex roll)?

As written, this requires two actions. Even in playing the real game (supposing this scenario was msde possible at all), the attacks would probably not be in sync enough to use only one PD shot.

Quote
Let's take the above example, but replace those Torches with a Supox Blade, also with full battery. The Blade declares its attack action, and decides to expend its entire battery on 4 shots. How is the reflex action handled for this? Since the Blade only makes one attack roll, it seems to imply that only 1 reflex roll is required to intercept all 4 shots. Or instead, does it require 4 separate reflex rolls?

Since there is only one attack roll, there is only one reflex action.  In most cases (except the cruiser) this is consistent with the game.  (If a torch jets out of the way, odds are ALL the Supox's shots miss.)

Quote
Above example again, but replace the Blade with an Ur-Quan Dreadnought. The Dreadnought fires its fusion cannon, and I attempt to shoot it down with point defense. Is this even possible? It certainly isn't in UQM, since the fusion bolt is far too resilient, but the way the reflex action rules are currently written seem to imply that the attack is negated despite that (note bolded text)
:

An oversight.  I will need to add a cap on how much the Cruiser's PDL can block.

Quote
Another example, same ships as above, except that this time, the Dreadnought launches a fighter which manages to get into a hex adjacant to my Cruiser. Now according to the rules for fighters, it should automatically deal damage without a pilot roll. But am I still able to avoid this by using a reflex action to shoot it down? Or do I have to wait for my turn (and take damage that no half competent Cruiser pilot would ever suffer in UQM) before I can fry the fighter with an explicit attack action?

For the sake of simplicity all "Automatic Hit" attacks do not allow reflex actions.

Quote
Last example. Let's return to the very first scenario with the pair of Torches, but replace my ship with a Spathi Eluder. The Eluder does not have any explicitly defined reflex actions. Is there a "generic" reflex action that any ship can take to force attacks to miss, or does there need to be an explicitly defined option in order for reflex actions to even be available?

The Eluder's high PILOT die is all it gets.  Since it costs no fuel, its arguably more useful than many of the reflex abilities.

Quote
Wait, one last thing. Let's say, in any given Cruiser example, I fail my reflex roll. While it means I was too slow with my point defense to shoot down whatever attack, do I expend battery power for firing the laser anyway? Or is it simply treated as if it were never fired at all?

This was supposed to be in the rules, but I guess it isn't.  As long as you're not DEAD after the attack, your reflex action still takes place.  You still lose fuel and still move if that is part of the reflex.

Quote
One of the primary things that struck me when reading your descriptions was the concept of "fractional crewmen," AKA weapons inflicting 1/2 point of damage. Not only does this not make a lot of sense (and generate disturbing mental images of what half a crewman would look like and how he/she/it could possibly function in such a state), it also leads to some strange and awkward scenarios (for example, using the Syreen's special to drain away all but the last enemy crewman (though the rules do not explicitly state that the last crewman does not bail out), but since its main gun only inflicts 1/2 damage, still requiring 2 shots to finish its opponent off). My suggestion is to simply double all damage values and crew complements; it is much simpler to deal only with whole numbers.

The idea is so you can deal with an easy 10 most of the time, but the system changes to "out of 20" for truly minor hits.  Doing math, this is awkward.  In the actual game, each ship will have a sheet with ten boxes, each divided in half.  You mark off CREW by filling in boxes.  It's quite easy, even the half ones.  Syreen should read "Cannot reduce below 1/2 crew"  You shouldn't take it as half a crewman but half a crew "block" which has several crew in it.

Quote
Incidentally, I feel the above should also apply to battery consumption and regeneration. However, I realize there is probably no other way to represent the truly awful regen rate on the Mauler than with fractional values. However, there really is no good reason any other ship should have to deal with them.

Oversight.  The fraction should be read "You regen one fuel every X turns"  ie. 1/2 means you get a BATTERY point every other turn.

Quote
Arilou: Shouldn't that laser always be pointed straight at the enemy (or straight ahead against a cloaked Ilwrath)? As it stands now, it seems like it would be quite powerful for shooting down all manner of hazards (limpets, Kohr-Ah discs, marines, etc.) which it would be hard pressed to handle in UQM.

Some ships are slightly more powerful and others slightly less.  This is why point values are not currently assigned.  I could always give the Skiff a "Can only target ships" flaw.

Quote
Chenjesu: It's probably worth mentioning that the Broodhome is not damaged by its own crystals when they scatter.

No ship can damage itself unless it has the "Friendly Fire" descriptor.

Quote
Druuge: What is the thrust value in parenthesis for?

A note to myself.  Originally the Druuge would go 5 hexes backward.

Quote
Earthling: I know I mentioned this above, but it bears mentioning again: Can point defense strike multiple targets with a single shot? For example, let's say a Cruiser has limpets in 3 adjacant hexes on its turn, and wants to shoot them down with point defense. Does the pilot need to fire 3 separate times, or will one shot bring them all down? Suffice to say, UQM uses the latter, but I can understand why that might be too powerful an ability under the current rules.

Due to the short range, I don't think it'd be too overpowered to add a "Scattered" descriptor to the Earthling PD.

Quote
Ilwrath: I'm surprised the Avenger has no reflex actions, since both of its functions (the cloak especially, though I can't even describe the huge variety of projectiles the AI has shot down with that flamethrower over the years) seem well suited for this purpose.
Once someone fires, it's too late to cloak.  The attack will hit (or not) whether you're visible or not.  the aim has been made.  You are where you are.  Flamethrower is noted though.

Quote
Kohr-Ah: You never finished the "limited homing" description, it ends rather abruptly (though the meaning is clear despite that). Also, the mines do not damage the Marauder itself, at least in UQM, and that is not mentioned. Finally, it is probably worth mentioning that the limited homing function would only track against enemy ships, not allied ones nor the Marauder itself.

As mentioned previously, no attack can damage friendly ships unless it has the Friendly Fire descriptor.  (See Mycon)

Quote
Melnorme: The "automatic hit" ability needs to be expanded on. It should include the stipulation that it will not take effect unless the Trader is charging a shot at the time, and that the automatic hit will also automatically discharge said shot. You may want to include the Trader's ability to defend against attacks originating from its front hex with a fully charged shot (since in UQM, a red charge can be used to block many projectiles). While charging, the Trader's REGEN attribute should drop to 0. While maintaining a charge, it should also be noted that the EM Pulse cannot be used. Finally, the EM Pulse should not be able to be intercepted or destroyed by any means, only dodged.

Noted.

Quote
Pkunk: The rapid fire rule should probably not use the term "be destroyed," but rather "take damage as normal." Also, I just want to say that this ship's design made me chuckle. Between having to actually insult your opponent and randomly throwing the ship onto the board when reincarnating, it sounds like a blast to use just for humor value alone. Smiley
Hahah! I'm glad someone enjoyed this besides me. I'm not crazy!

Quote
Shofixti: It might be worth adding that avoiding damage from the Glory Device using reflex actions is impossible unless you are on the outer edge of the blast (ie. 3 hexes away), and using a movment action to move outside of the range. Otherwise, you could potentially use something like point defense or the Umgah antimatter cone to avoid damage.

Noted.

Quote
Thraddash: This ship also has an unexplained thrust value in parenthesis.
Same logic as Druuge.

Quote
Umgah: The reverse jump seems like a perfectly logical evasion reflex.
It should be.  This was an oversight.

Quote
Utwig: The Jugger cannot fire its main gun while its shields are up, nor can its shields negate (or absorb) damage from planetary collisions.
Waiting on planet rules. Smiley  As for shield v. gun...I assumed the shield could be put up, put down, and guns fired all in the course of one turn.  No gameplay mention needed.

Quote
VUX: When you describe limpets as reducing "PILOT by 1," are you referring to subtracting from the die roll (ie. Earthling with 1 limpet would be reduced from d8 to d8-1), or reducing the actual die rolled to the next lowest polyhedron (ie. Earthling with 1 limpet would be reduced from d8 to d6)? It seems to imply the latter, but is not clear. Also, it is worth mentioning that a reincarnating Fury will instantly clear all limpets from its hull (at least in UQM).
Should read that it reduces the polyhedron by one size.  Noted about the Fury.

Quote
Yehat: Like the Jugger, the Terminator cannot fire while its shields are up, nor can its shields negate damage from planet collisions. Also, it is worth mentioning that under the current rules, a Terminator can shield indefinitely, effectively reducing almost any battle to a stalemate.
Unless he uses all of his firepower.  If he attacks (which eventually, anyone will out of boredom) the Terminator will eventually be forced to choose between fighting, recharging, and shielding.  Also, if the shield is used as a reflex, it's not guaranteed.

Quote
ZoqFotPik: Like the Fury, The tri-attack rule should probably not use the term "be destroyed," but rather "take damage as normal."

Noted.

Quote
Anyway, that's my long-winded two bits. It bears mentioning that I think this project has great potential and is a cool idea, which is why I'm critiquing it in this much length. Grin

I really really apreciate it.  It's the kind of input I hoped for.  Gonna try to create a ship sheet, a sheet of tokens, map sheets, and update the rules with this stuff soon. Smiley

Oh and Death, check the rules for the Inertia phase. Smiley
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Re: Star Control - The RPG/Board Game
« Reply #43 on: March 02, 2007, 05:23:51 am »

Okay, here's a sheet mockup!

http://www.wiseturtle.com/sc2sheet.jpg

If it seems to work for everyone, I'll upload the hi-res blank version.

Next: Ships and tokens!
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Re: Star Control - The RPG/Board Game
« Reply #44 on: March 02, 2007, 03:21:24 pm »

A small addition about the Melnorme - if a Trader is destroyed while charging a shot, the shot is released and may cause damage as normal.
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