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News: Celebrating 30 years of Star Control 2 - The Ur-Quan Masters

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Author Topic: Missing Mycon Dialogue Addon  (Read 7127 times)
meep-eep
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Re: Missing Mycon Dialogue Addon
« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2007, 04:45:48 pm »

The added starmap search doesn't prevent the game from being played the way it used to be.

I agree that the game should be playable to anyone, but that does not include changing the way coordinates are displayed everywhere to fix a problem in one place which could be solved differently.

The Syreen didn't give coordinates in the SC2 PC version. And the Slylandro probes give coordinates like they used to. You're right about the Utwig though. But as far as I know, that's all. Mycon, and Utwig.

Edit: actually, what did you expect from the Syreen? They don't have a SoI, so once you get to speak to one, you're already at the home world.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2007, 04:47:32 pm by meep-eep » Logged

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Re: Missing Mycon Dialogue Addon
« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2007, 04:48:29 pm »

meep-eep posted while I was proof-reading, but since I make a few additional points I'll post this anyway.

Quote from: Clay
And an entirely new feature (starmap search) doesn't?
That doesn't give the player any information he doesn't already have, and compensates for the lack of a big physical starmap. Next you'll be demanding that netplay be removed. Wink

Quote
And Syreen do not give coordinates (as they did) The Utwig do not give coordinates (as they did).  The Slylandro Probe does not give coordinates (as they did...even if they were using an altered system from the rest of the game).
The Syreen never did give co-ordinates, nor did the Utwig. However, they did give the names of the (original) Syreen and Supox home systems respectively (which I guess is what you're getting at).

All of these are problems with the 3DO version that UQM faithfully reproduces and have been discussed extensively back and forth several times (I'd link to the bug database entry, but the whole thing seems to be down right now, just like the forum was yesterday). Basically, UQM has changed the text to match the 3DO speech, as we can't change the speech properly without rerecording large parts of it, since we can't record new lines that sound like the original actors. I realise this is immensely annoying to people who want the PC version without speech.

Quote from: Valaggar
And the Syreen and the Slylandro GIVE coordinates.
I certainly can't find any co-ordinates in the Syreen dialogue, nor any useful system names.
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Re: Missing Mycon Dialogue Addon
« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2007, 06:16:16 pm »

Well, well, it seems that I must surrender about the Mycon, although it would be better not to have to minimize the game and look on the forum to find the Mycon homeworld.
How about looking about the centre of the Mycon sphere of influence? Works for me.
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Re: Missing Mycon Dialogue Addon
« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2007, 06:30:31 pm »

Good, good, you CAN find it. BUT, how can you learn that you need to go there to send the Mycon to Organon?
Good point; the 3DO Mycon response strongly gives the impression that the Mycon don't care about what you have to say, not that you're in the wrong place.
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Re: Missing Mycon Dialogue Addon
« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2007, 08:20:56 pm »

Meep eep: I was under the impression they gave the coordinates to their old homeworld.  Again, it's been a very long time.  *laughs*

If it really is only two instances (or three, the Slyrandro Probe doesn't SPEAK its coordinates, they merely appear briefly.  I thought this was removed in later updates; I guess not?) then you're right, it certainly doesn't warrant game-wide changes.  And as I mentioned, I never had a problem finding the Mycon homeworld...so...don't know why I'm even arguing the point!

I was very young when I watched my brother play the original SC2, and I guess I overestimated the "homeworld deletion" thing.  For two coordinates (one of which is not essential) it would be a pretty big bastardization.

Another option...The Mycon have quite a lot of random dialogue.  Has anyone attempted to paste together disparate snippets that would, somehow, indicate this is NOT the homeworld?

and Novus: Maybe I should request that!  I certainly get my rear end handed to me in netplay most of the time. ^_~
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Re: Missing Mycon Dialogue Addon
« Reply #20 on: March 08, 2007, 10:26:53 pm »

One other thing that we've talked about is to put the Mycon homeworld hint in one of the Syreen's ship's computer, to be shown when you recover the ships from the ship vault. As that is text-only anyhow, it wouldn't be out of place.
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Re: Missing Mycon Dialogue Addon
« Reply #21 on: March 09, 2007, 06:38:49 am »

I'm jumping into this discussion way late. 

What about some parenthetical statement in the text along the lines of

"Communication being received on a secure channel -- audio is disabled"

?
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Re: Missing Mycon Dialogue Addon
« Reply #22 on: March 09, 2007, 07:57:20 am »

I find myself perplexed by this entire discussion.

UQM has a False Knowledge Pathology in it; it is not reasonable to expect a player to be able to complete the game. That doesn't mean that one can't; it merely means that a reasonable game designer should not expect the player to.

Put simply, your game is broken. It's not much better than putting the key to a locked door behind the locked door.

So, all these notions of, "We're trying to emulate the 3DO version," etc are really just nonsense. Gameplay is king, and the gameplay itself is broken.

One line of unspoken dialog. It's infinitely better to let a player think that the game is missing a dialog file than for the player to not be able to play the game.

You could argue against this being a False Knowledge Pathology. But that's the only reasonable argument against doing whatever it takes to fix the problem. If you believe it is a game-breaking problem, then it needs to be fixed.
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Re: Missing Mycon Dialogue Addon
« Reply #23 on: March 09, 2007, 08:43:58 am »

I find myself perplexed by this entire discussion.
UQM has a False Knowledge Pathology in it; it is not reasonable to expect a player to be able to complete the game. That doesn't mean that one can't; it merely means that a reasonable game designer should not expect the player to.
Put simply, your game is broken. It's not much better than putting the key to a locked door behind the locked door.
So, all these notions of, "We're trying to emulate the 3DO version," etc are really just nonsense. Gameplay is king, and the gameplay itself is broken.
One line of unspoken dialog. It's infinitely better to let a player think that the game is missing a dialog file than for the player to not be able to play the game.
You could argue against this being a False Knowledge Pathology. But that's the only reasonable argument against doing whatever it takes to fix the problem. If you believe it is a game-breaking problem, then it needs to be fixed.

I agree. I only ever played the PC version and managed to complete it after while. I did run through the UQM version but since I new the game inside out I innately new how to deal with the Mycon without having to run through the proper sequence of the game so I was unaware of the broken game play aspect of it until this thread (call me slow).

I would love to share UQM with others, but if its broken its broken. I am all for reinstating a bit of text with no dialogue if it means that newbies can play without being disappointed in the same way that I was with Star Control 3 with all its bugs.

Anything that keeps Star Control inaccessible does not help the prospects of a sequel being made. It needs main stream exposure, and good things to be said about it when discovered.
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Re: Missing Mycon Dialogue Addon
« Reply #24 on: March 09, 2007, 09:22:39 am »

UQM has a False Knowledge Pathology in it; it is not reasonable to expect a player to be able to complete the game. That doesn't mean that one can't; it merely means that a reasonable game designer should not expect the player to.

Put simply, your game is broken. It's not much better than putting the key to a locked door behind the locked door.

You could argue against this being a False Knowledge Pathology.
I think I already did, but I'll reiterate and clarify: from previous encounters the player should be aware that large-scale decisions are always made by leaders at a homeworld. Similarly, unless a species is at war, its homeworld will be near the centre of its sphere of influence. One problem here is that Beta Brahe and Epsilon Scorpii are both in the middle of Mycon space, and deducing from the Mycon's babble that the Sun Device planet isn't their homeworld is almost impossible without the "but it is not the Source" part.

Hmm... I seem to have changed my mind halfway through that response. You're right, we do have a problem.
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Re: Missing Mycon Dialogue Addon
« Reply #25 on: March 09, 2007, 10:59:14 am »

Smaug: you seem to be missing the point of this discussion. It is not about that issues like this (if real) should be fixed -- I think we all can agree to that. It is about how.

« Last Edit: March 09, 2007, 11:04:16 am by meep-eep » Logged

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Re: Missing Mycon Dialogue Addon
« Reply #26 on: March 09, 2007, 02:14:37 pm »

meep-eep: About how we should do this - perhaps a text-only would be good TEMPORARILY until we find out another solution. I mean, when the Probe transmits its coordinates there's no speech, so why couldn't we do the same here?

However, there are other missing lines besides the Mycons' - the Melnorme and the VUX are the most important, but the Arilou lack some lines too. They can't be fixed without speech, and speech can't be added without the original actors (except the Melnorme text, I would say).
Speaking of this, WHY can't the original actors be employed to record the missing lines?
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Re: Missing Mycon Dialogue Addon
« Reply #27 on: March 09, 2007, 02:59:45 pm »

Speaking of this, WHY can't the original actors be employed to record the missing lines?
  • We don't know how to contact them.
  • They probably don't sound the same 15 years later.
  • We don't know how to duplicate the voice effects in all cases.
  • They may not want to participate (and we can't afford to bribe them).
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Re: Missing Mycon Dialogue Addon
« Reply #28 on: March 09, 2007, 03:23:07 pm »

Actually...didn't Paul Reiche or Fred Ford do the Mycon lines? Or did I hallucinate that?

Also, first time I've heard about missing VUX lines.  Can anyone elaborate?
« Last Edit: March 09, 2007, 03:26:43 pm by Clay » Logged
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Re: Missing Mycon Dialogue Addon
« Reply #29 on: March 09, 2007, 03:36:53 pm »

Quote from: Novus
We don't know how to contact them.
We can find out.
Quote from: Novus
They probably don't sound the same 15 years later.
Their voice can't be so different, especially if we modify the pitches to match the ones they had 15 years ago.
Quote from: Novus
We don't know how to duplicate the voice effects in all cases.
Trial and error.
Quote from: Novus
They may not want to participate (and we can't afford to bribe them).
Let's just hope they'll want. Plus, if we manage to collect enough money from the SC2 fans, we can "bribe" them.

Clay: Paul Reiche III himself did the Mycon lines, and he did a mighty job! Only if he would have finished it...
Missing VUX lines: Somebody said it here on the forum and I believed it, but there are no missing lines.
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