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Author Topic: A New Model for Dimensions and IDF  (Read 2823 times)
Valaggar
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A New Model for Dimensions and IDF
« on: March 09, 2007, 08:38:22 pm »

So far the most popular model is the "pyramid" model, in which QuasiSpace is above and is the most dense dimension and Orz's dimension is below, being the thinnest dimension.

However, looking at the Portal Spawner icon, we see a larger red sphere (HyperSpace) from which a "tunnel" leads to a smaller green sphere (QuasiSpace).
So dimensions are like "spheres" with different "colors" ("reality phase").
However, the planet lander report at the Androsynth ruins mentions dimensions that SHARE place with our. I presume this refers to the "wasteland" between dimensions.
However (again this word! hihehe) the pyramid model cannot completely be denied since there ARE things pointing to it: *above*&*below*, *in between* and the gradation of density.
See this thread for details.
So actually BOTH models are true, each one reveals a different facette of the problem.
And the parasites from Beyond that the Arilou spoke of are from the "wasteland" in which dimensions are anchored. This is what "beyond" is supposed to mean, right?
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Elvish Pillager
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Re: A New Model for Dimensions and IDF
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2007, 10:36:35 pm »

I was under the impression that TrueSpace, HyperSpace, and QuasiSpace are fundementally similar, and that the Orz dimension, as well as wherever the Arilou really hang out, are of a different order entirely.
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Re: A New Model for Dimensions and IDF
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2007, 02:11:40 am »

Quote
So far the most popular model is the "pyramid" model, in which QuasiSpace is above and is the most dense dimension and Orz's dimension is below, being the thinnest dimension.

I think its imporant to look at what "above" means in this case. Its true the Orz (and I think the Arilou aswell?) refer to differant dimensions above or below, but I think thats just for lack of a better word (the translator just cant understand the Orz, and the Arilou purposely use simpler terms to keep us in the dark).
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Valaggar
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Re: A New Model for Dimensions and IDF
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2007, 08:13:48 am »

Quote from: Elvish Pillager
I was under the impression that TrueSpace, HyperSpace, and QuasiSpace are fundementally similar, and that the Orz dimension, as well as wherever the Arilou really hang out, are of a different order entirely.

In my model so it is: Orz lives in the "wasteland" and HyperSpace, TrueSpace and QuasiSpace are "sphere dimensions".
However, although HS and TS are very similar, we don't know enough of QS to say how similar or different it is.
But I don't think it can be so similar. Where in TS can you find "the Dark", "the Mountain Clouds of Thought", "the Tangible Wish"? Spiritual things that are condensed into materiality?
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Elvish Pillager
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Re: A New Model for Dimensions and IDF
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2007, 01:21:12 pm »

My model: Most races can only move *horizantally*, in a sense - they can travel around TrueSpace, or HyperSpace, or QuasiSpace, but can't freely move *vertically*. Orz and the Arilou can move *vertically* - essentially, they are free to move in four-dimensional space. However, they don't just move everywhere, because they prefer being in certain area. For instance, Orz like TrueSpace much more than *outside* (and I'm not sure whether or not they prefer *below* to *above*.)
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Valaggar
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Re: A New Model for Dimensions and IDF
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2007, 01:28:38 pm »

Your model is interesting. But as I said, I don't think that a single model can encompass perfectly the reality. We must intersect more models.
So:
Pyramid model for Dimensional Characteristics
"Wasteland" model for clarifying the Arilou "parasites" statement and Portal Spawner icon/usage
Reality Phase model (your model - the height is the Reality Phase, as you can tell from the famous lander report) for explaining Dimensional Transgressions/Aberrations (Poltergeists etc.) and Portal Spawner usage
(and by the way, Orz likes *below*, loves *in between* (our dimension) and hates *above*)
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Elvish Pillager
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Re: A New Model for Dimensions and IDF
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2007, 01:34:48 pm »

Looking back through Orz quotes, it actually doesn't have asterisks around "Inside" and "outside".  That's very interesting...
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Re: A New Model for Dimensions and IDF
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2007, 01:40:10 pm »

It does have asterisks around "inside" and "outside", the only place where they're without asterisks is their first reply, when you first encounter them. Strange indeed. But I think it's just an oversight of FF&PR3.

We are from the *outside*. Also the Arilou *quick babies* are from *outside*. It is the same, but not. Orz are from *below*, Arilou are from *above*.
And if *outside* is the "wasteland", then the Arilou are not native to QuasiSpace/TrueSpace, but to the "wasteland", but from another Reality Phase of the "wasteland".

You cannot *slide* like Orz from *outside* to *inside* and *in between*.
Then *inside* means the "sphere dimensions". But *in between* refers to TrueSpace, not in between the "wasteland" and the "sphere dimensions", so either *outside* and *inside* have other meanings or Orz is accentuating travelling in TS because he likes it.
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Re: A New Model for Dimensions and IDF
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2007, 04:29:42 pm »

I think you're trying too hard to add more extraneous details into theory that doesn't need them. I believe that it's fairly clear that a good dimensional model is that of stacked layers, with the Orz home dimension sitting on the bottom (at least of what we know of, ergo *below*), and Quasispace on the top (*above*), with Hyperspace and Truespace in between them at different levels (and simply different dimensions, nothing else makes them unique unless you cound the fact that we live in one of them). As far as other terminology goes, *outside* simply means "a different dimension than Truespace" (because Truespace is what is being referenced in that context), and *inside* refers to Truespace itself. *In between* likely refers to dimensions other than the ones we become acquainted with during the game (since the Orz seem to be able to travel between whichever dimensions thay please, so long as someone attracts their attention).

As for the spheres on the Portal Spawner, once again you're trying to look too deep at something with a simple explanation. The green and red spheres are the same icons used to represent wormholes between Hyperspae and Quasispace. The Portal Spawner graphic is simply a symbolic representation of saying "this artifact allows you to move into Quasispace from Hyperspace." The space around the arrow doesn't represent anything. Did you expect them to draw a complete and accurate dimensional map just to illustrate how the device works? The icon isn't that big, and it would probably be pretty hard to figure out what it was if that's what they did.
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Elvish Pillager
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Re: A New Model for Dimensions and IDF
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2007, 09:46:45 pm »

I think you're trying too hard to add more extraneous details into theory that doesn't need them. I believe that it's fairly clear that a good dimensional model is that of stacked layers, with the Orz home dimension sitting on the bottom (at least of what we know of, ergo *below*), and Quasispace on the top (*above*)
I don't believe that "the Orz dimension" is a distinct dimension. Also, it seems to me that Quasispace is one of the farthest *above* spaces that makes any sense for most races to move to - you can go higher than that if you're an Arilou, and it makes more sense if you're an Arilou, too.
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Re: A New Model for Dimensions and IDF
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2007, 10:20:58 pm »

I don't believe that "the Orz dimension" is a distinct dimension.

They had to come from somewhere, and *below* is the best fit we're provided to describe it. I'm just trying to take the simple approach here.

Quote
Also, it seems to me that Quasispace is one of the farthest *above* spaces that makes any sense for most races to move to - you can go higher than that if you're an Arilou, and it makes more sense if you're an Arilou, too.

Certainly possible, but being that we really don't see many alternate dimensions, who knows how it would actually work in this regard. In fact, scratch that; I don't think Quasispace fits those parameters at all. We know there is a natural portal from Hyperspace to Quasispace, which implies that the two dimensions are very close to each other on whatever sort of dimensional map you care to believe represents the way things work. Of course, it's certainly not as close as Hyperspace is to Truespace (considering that you can cross back and forth practically at will, though it is worth mentioning tangentially that the Quasispace portal is apparently also present in Truespace, considering that it's visible to the Spathi and others), but the dimension the Orz came from must be considerably farther away; the Androsynth had to expend considerable effort with IDF in order to get close enough to attract the attention of the Orz, and we certainly don't know of any naturally occuring portals there (though it is possible we simply can't percieve them, unlike the Quasispace portal; there is a distinct possibility based on game dialog and events that a natural portal exists on the former Taalo homeworld, and it seems an artificial one quite possibly exists on the former Androsynth homeworld as well). Could we feasibly travel to dimensions *above* Quasispace? There certainly doesn't seem to be any reason why not, other than the fact that we lack artificial means to do so (ie. No Portal Spawner or other IDF inducers synched to those dimensions), and there are no known naturally occurring portals (at least in the region of space we know of).
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Elvish Pillager
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Re: A New Model for Dimensions and IDF
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2007, 11:39:48 pm »

I don't believe that "the Orz dimension" is a distinct dimension.

They had to come from somewhere, and *below* is the best fit we're provided to describe it. I'm just trying to take the simple approach here.
I mean, it's not a single dimension. It's more like a vague interdimensional area - like "all the space *below* TrueSpace" or something.

Could we feasibly travel to dimensions *above* Quasispace? There certainly doesn't seem to be any reason why not
The Arilou repeatedly talk about things that humans couldn't understand or percieve. AFAICT, the occurence of these things goes up as you go farther *above* (so you wouldn't really want to do that, probably.)

Not sure.
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Re: A New Model for Dimensions and IDF
« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2007, 03:52:36 pm »

I mean, it's not a single dimension. It's more like a vague interdimensional area - like "all the space *below* TrueSpace" or something.

It has to be a single dimension. The Orz we interact with had to have a single point of origin, unless you're willing to argue that they simply infest (or perhaps *are*? Hmm...) all of the dimensions *below*. Even still, the Androsynth had to break into one dimension in particular that attracted their attention.

Could we feasibly travel to dimensions *above* Quasispace? There certainly doesn't seem to be any reason why not
The Arilou repeatedly talk about things that humans couldn't understand or percieve. AFAICT, the occurence of these things goes up as you go farther *above* (so you wouldn't really want to do that, probably.)

Not sure.[/quote]

Then again, at least in Quasispace, the Arilou seem to imply that it's just like the dimensions we're familiar with, so long as you don't look too closely. While there's no guarantee that this trend will continue forever as you go *upwards*, there's nothing that leads me to believe that we can't successfully traverse *higher* dimensions than Quasispace. Exploring them in detail, however, may be another matter entirely.

On the other hand, it seems a little strange that Quasispace is little more than a small cluster of portals leading back to Hyperspace, the Arilou homeworld (which appears to have been transplanted there from somewhere else anyway, most likely Truespace), and wide open space. Perhaps there are many things we already can't percieve in Quasispace, and we're only able to wrap our minds around those things that are grounded in the familiar. Everything else might just be so bizarre or incomprehensible to us that we tune it out as if it wasn't there at all.
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Re: A New Model for Dimensions and IDF
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2007, 04:04:42 pm »

Here's my take. [/breaking a long lurk]

All dimensions - *above*, *below* etc - aren't multiple dimensions, they're all one single dimension. We perceive one aspect of this dimension, the Orz perceive *below*, the Arilou perceive *above* and so on.

This is also probably why certain knowledge is 'dangerous'.

Truespace vs Quasispace vs Hyperspace, though, are separate dimensions. Here a pyramidal structure applies. In Quasispace, a short distance on the starmap equates to a vastly larger distance in Hyperspace, which again equates to an even larger distance in Truespace.
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Re: A New Model for Dimensions and IDF
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2007, 04:36:50 pm »

Quote from: Mugz the Sane
All dimensions - *above*, *below* etc - aren't multiple dimensions, they're all one single dimension
Nope, Arilou are from *above*. This means, of course, QuasiSpace. (remember that the Orz hate *above*, and they were even supposed to do strange things if you took them in QS, so QS is *above*) So these are dimensions too.

But, indeed, as the Eta Vulpeculae II lander report said, there are other dimensions that share place with our dimension, but have a different "reality phase". Such as Orz's dimension.
These would be my "wasteland" - yes, in my model, it occupies a different place from our dimension, but I made this for a better visualization. Just keep in mind that it's the same place de facto.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2007, 04:40:23 pm by Valaggar » Logged
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