The Ur-Quan Masters Home Page Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
February 08, 2023, 02:56:17 pm
Home Help Search Login Register
News: Celebrating 30 years of Star Control 2 - The Ur-Quan Masters

+  The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum
|-+  The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release
| |-+  General UQM Discussion (Moderator: Death 999)
| | |-+  What happened to the Tobermoon in Oort's Cloud?
« previous next »
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 Print
Author Topic: What happened to the Tobermoon in Oort's Cloud?  (Read 18294 times)
Valaggar
Guest


Email
Re: What happened to the Tobermoon in Oort's Cloud?
« Reply #30 on: March 24, 2007, 06:05:35 pm »

Yes, you missed the Androsynth hypothesis - since Blazers may be deep burns too. And they might only damage the outer layers of vessels, leaving internal systems almost intact.
Logged
Draxas
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1044



View Profile
Re: What happened to the Tobermoon in Oort's Cloud?
« Reply #31 on: March 26, 2007, 06:19:12 pm »

Except the Androsynth would more than likely ignore the Tobermoon's surrender, and go on to destroy the ship. Similar story with the Ilwrath; I can't imagine the crew of the Tobermoon would have an opportunity to surrender (or be willing to, knowing the fate that was in store for them) if an Avenger decloaked off their bow and started incinerating their hull.

As for the timing of the Ur-Quan hunting call, according to the timeline the Chenjesu first detected the Kzer-Za's hunting call somewhat before 2100 (which is when they enslaved the Thraddash). That's approximately 5 years before they enslaved the Umgah, which is the first race the Chenjesu were actually aware of in the sector. Given that timeframe, it's probably unlikely that the Kohr-Ah had anything to do with the events surrounding the Tobermoon, which occurred in 2134.

Here's a revised scenario: The Tobermoon encountered a Dreadnought (which is the only Hierarchy vessel it would be likely to surrender to, as well as create the hull burns), or perhaps even a fleet of Dreadnoughts, originating from either Androsynth or VUX territory. They were enroute to a battle near Raynet (since the Indi-Mira line had recently been broken), and detected the Tobermoon on the fringes of the Vela system, preparing to push into Hyperspace. They intercepted, and the Tobermoon surrendered after being singed by a warning shot. The Ur-Quan proceeded to search the system for colonies, but because Unzervalt had not yet been established and all of the future colonists were examining the Precursor facility underground, the Ur-Quan did not detect any activity. They left to continue to the battle site, the derelict Cruiser soon forgotten amidst the decision to push toward Procyon with the Sa-Matra and end the war for good.

Of course, it is possible that the Ur-Quan DID detect a hunting call at that moment; why else would they have suddenly decided to use the Sa-Matra shortly after, despite having kept it in reserve for nearly 15 years of pitched battles with the Alliance? The only reason I can think of is that the Ur-Quan have even more sensitive hyperwave receivers than the Chenjesu, and detected the distant hunting call of the Kohr-Ah as they cleansed another species. Knowing what was approaching, and what the arrival of the Kohr-Ah entailed, the decision was made to hasten the inevitable, and finish the war so that they could focus all of their attention on the Kohr-Ah's imminent arrival in the sector.
Logged
Valaggar
Guest


Email
Re: What happened to the Tobermoon in Oort's Cloud?
« Reply #32 on: March 26, 2007, 06:53:15 pm »

Maybe. But why would an Ur-Quan fleet with a determined target stop in a small star system like Vela?
Perhaps a damaged Ur-Quan needed repairs?

And, anyway, if they saw an Earthling Cruiser departing the system, the rational conclusion would be that probably the Earthlings have a base there! And they would scan the planets and DETECT the colony - don't forget that scans reveal ruins too.
Energy scan means scan for anomalies - plus, the Prekkie installation probably radiated some energy.


The VUX are a good hypothesis too... though I don't think they would ACCEPT their surrender. Imagine how repugnant would it be for a VUX to... yuck! To have an ugly human freak-face onboard! I think I'm going to be sick.
No, the VUX don't work. Only the Ur-Quan.
Logged
Draxas
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1044



View Profile
Re: What happened to the Tobermoon in Oort's Cloud?
« Reply #33 on: March 26, 2007, 07:56:23 pm »

Maybe. But why would an Ur-Quan fleet with a determined target stop in a small star system like Vela?
Perhaps a damaged Ur-Quan needed repairs?

More likely because they detected the presence of an Alliance ship. The Oort cloud lies on the very fringe of a solar system, which implies that the Tobermoon had probably just made the jump to Hyperspace, but had lousy timing and was intercepted immediately, landing it back in the Oort cloud.

Quote
And, anyway, if they saw an Earthling Cruiser departing the system, the rational conclusion would be that probably the Earthlings have a base there! And they would scan the planets and DETECT the colony - don't forget that scans reveal ruins too.
Energy scan means scan for anomalies - plus, the Prekkie installation probably radiated some energy.

The installation wouldn't radiate energy, because it was both underground and shut down. That's why it went undetected for so long in the first place. And unlike all of the other ruins you can detect with energy scans in the game, the Precursor installation was not bombarded from orbit nor the site of a ground war. There's no energy for it to give off, or if there is, it's far enough underground that those readings are not detectable from orbit.
Logged
Valaggar
Guest


Email
Re: What happened to the Tobermoon in Oort's Cloud?
« Reply #34 on: March 26, 2007, 08:30:41 pm »

Maybe the Prekkie installation won't radiate energy - maybe - but not all ruins do, anyway.
The Pkunk ruins left after their... assimilation by the Yehat, or the Ilwrath ruins left after their defeat at the BigBoomHands of the Thraddash are detectable, even if they don't radiate energy.
Logged
Draxas
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1044



View Profile
Re: What happened to the Tobermoon in Oort's Cloud?
« Reply #35 on: March 26, 2007, 10:40:43 pm »

Why don't they radiate energy? The Pkunk just picked up and left, and probably weren't too concerned with turning off all their technology or collecting all of their power crystals or whatever (working!) new-agey junk they left behind. And the Ilwrath... Well, their cities were destroyed by a massive weapon, and considering the Thraddash seem to like their weapons thermonuclear, I imagine they'll be radiating energy for some time to come.
Logged
Narsham
Zebranky food
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 20



View Profile
Re: What happened to the Tobermoon in Oort's Cloud?
« Reply #36 on: March 27, 2007, 02:15:44 am »

Here's an alternative explanation:

About the time the Tobermoon was attacked, the Alliance's defeat was beginning to look likely.

We know the Melnorme have reason to want to see the two Ur-Quan factions defeated.  We know they have devices with some limited degree to glimpse the future.  We know they explore on their own (as well as getting the human captain to do so) because they came across the Slylandro.

Suppose they knew about the human colony?  Suppose they also knew about the Precursor ruins on the colony?  Might they have attacked the Tobermoon to ensure that the Kzer-Za didn't detect and slave-shield the colony, with the expectation that they'd set into motion events which would lead to the destruction of the Sa-Matra and an Ur-Quan defeat?

A quick confusion ray hit followed by a few of the weakest attacks would probably account for the battle damage, and explain why no bodies were found (as the Melnorme weren't trying to kill anyone, just isolate the colony).

Narsham
Logged
JonoPorter
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 656


Don't mess with the US.


View Profile WWW
Re: What happened to the Tobermoon in Oort's Cloud?
« Reply #37 on: March 27, 2007, 09:27:05 am »

So when they discovered the ship did anyone think about checking the logs?

Here are a few theories I thought up:

1. The umgah attacked them disabling the ship, but instead of killing the crew they captured them and planned to use the ship as part of a “GOOD JOKE!! Har! Har! Har!” But were ordered out of vela by the ur-quan and forgot to come back for the ship since they thought of better one using a hyper wave caster. The crew’s fate was a sad affair though. They were slowly killed as the butt of one umgah joke after another. Some died in space jeopardy where the losers were spaced. Some died in a live action version of hangman. The umgah thought they were hilarious the humans did not. 

2. The hyper drive malfunctioned during the shift to hyperspace causing the ship to be shot back into n-space while the crew and a few parts were shot into hyperspace. With no hyperspace spoor to protect them the crew died a quick and painless death of being instantly converted into hyperspace particles.

3. They ran into a kohr-ah scouting party and when the kohr-ah disabled the ship they boarded it and took trophies for their bone pits. And before they could destroy the ship they detect an ur-quan fleet and having orders to not reveal themselves, they move away quietly.

4. A group of syreens suffering from a neurological disorder attacked it and called all the crew off the ship, then left.

5. They all went mad after a flaming asteroid filled with a weird telepathic material the Taalo mind shield is made of glanced their ship. And in their state of madness the entire crew decided to go outside the ship in space suits to play astro-ball. And with no one at the controls the ship automatically did a course correction throwing the entire crew into the abyss of space.
Logged

There are none so blind as those who will not see. — Jonathan Swift

My Remake of UQM.
My 2D physics engine
Both are written in C#.
Valaggar
Guest


Email
Re: What happened to the Tobermoon in Oort's Cloud?
« Reply #38 on: March 27, 2007, 02:54:22 pm »

Draxas: I knew you'll say that for the Pkunk... but the Ilwrath ruins, I'd think, were abandoned, not destroyed - like the Pkunk ones.
Their fleet in Thraddash space was weak, so they had to send their last spiders.
The Thraddash don't even know of the Ilwrath homeworld, probably, and anyway they would be too silly to send a retaliation strike there.

Narsham: The Melnorme are VERY peaceful. When you converse with Greenish for the first time, try picking aggressive replies.
You will see then.
I'd agree with your explanation, however, with a little variation: the Ur-Quan took the crew aboard, then the Melnorme came and annihilated the Ur-Quan. Since they probably are so angry with the 'Quan - and since this is the RIGHT thing to do - they'd attack them.
AH, NO! TIMELINE MISMATCH! The Melnorme weren't in the area at that time.

BioSlayer:
1. A good explanation, and the deep burns would be explained by a joke the Umgah played. I like this one.
3. Timeline mismatch.
4. All Syreen have been imprisoned on Betelgeuse.
2. and 5. Working, but very improbable. Just like the time loop explanation a few posts above.

So we'd have left these explanations:
A. An Ur-Quan fleet, passing through - en route to  Raynet - detected a Cruiser - the Tobermoon. It surrendered. The Ur-Quan checked the ship's logs, but their warning shot had destroyed them (fortunately). They checked the planets, but the Precursor installation didn't radiate energy. (Draxas) LIKELY
B. The Umgah were the cause (BioSlayer) VERY LIKELY
C. Some sort of weird and unlikely phenomenon. EXTREMELY UNLIKELY
Logged
Draxas
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1044



View Profile
Re: What happened to the Tobermoon in Oort's Cloud?
« Reply #39 on: March 27, 2007, 11:25:17 pm »

Draxas: I knew you'll say that for the Pkunk... but the Ilwrath ruins, I'd think, were abandoned, not destroyed - like the Pkunk ones.
Their fleet in Thraddash space was weak, so they had to send their last spiders.
The Thraddash don't even know of the Ilwrath homeworld, probably, and anyway they would be too silly to send a retaliation strike there.

Ever see what the lander crew has to say if you visit the Ilwarth homeworld after the Thraddash and Ilwarth mutually exterminate each other? It's pretty enlightening.

Quote
AH, NO! TIMELINE MISMATCH! The Melnorme weren't in the area at that time.

Says who? The Melnorme visited the Slylandro during the events of SC1, and plenty of other races (Spathi and Shofixti, in particular) have had dealings with them before. Obviously they stayed well hidden from the Ur-Quan during this time, but that doesn't mean they weren't in the sector.

Quote
4. All Syreen have been imprisoned on Betelgeuse.

Timeline mismatch. Assuming the Tobermoon was disabled in 2134, the Syreen were still active members of the Alliance, along with all the other members. The Ur-Quan had not yet used the Sa-Matra (though they would in the near future).

Quote
B. The Umgah were the cause (BioSlayer) VERY LIKELY

How so? I don't think the Tobermoon would have surrendered to a Drone; a much more likely scenario has them blasting it into particulates.

As for the logs, a well trained crew would erase everything to prevent it from falling into enemy hands. I have no doubt that the crew would do this if they were preparing to surrender.
Logged
JonoPorter
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 656


Don't mess with the US.


View Profile WWW
Re: What happened to the Tobermoon in Oort's Cloud?
« Reply #40 on: March 28, 2007, 09:25:31 am »

Quote
B. The Umgah were the cause (BioSlayer) VERY LIKELY
How so? I don't think the Tobermoon would have surrendered to a Drone; a much more likely scenario has them blasting it into particulates.
I didn’t say they surrendered, I said the ship was disabled.


And the capturing of the ship was not the great joke. The great joke would have been making the ship run on automatic and have it return to a base and do something diabolical like self destructing after docking with the base. Or something like that.
Logged

There are none so blind as those who will not see. — Jonathan Swift

My Remake of UQM.
My 2D physics engine
Both are written in C#.
Valaggar
Guest


Email
Re: What happened to the Tobermoon in Oort's Cloud?
« Reply #41 on: March 28, 2007, 02:28:25 pm »

Quote from: BioSlayer
I didn’t say they surrendered, I said the ship was disabled.


And the capturing of the ship was not the great joke. The great joke would have been making the ship run on automatic and have it return to a base and do something diabolical like self destructing after docking with the base. Or something like that.
So the logs were destroyed and the Umgah couldn't make their great joke, right?
Well, but how come that the Cruiser was disabled? Their antimatter cone would not disable a ship.
Maybe they used a trick to come aboard (e.g. use a fake Cruiser)? But then the logs would have been intact and the Umgah could make their great joke. This explanation doesn't seem to work, as such.

Quote from: Draxas
Ever see what the lander crew has to say if you visit the Ilwarth homeworld after the Thraddash and Ilwarth mutually exterminate each other? It's pretty enlightening.
Yes... but I'd say that rather the Ilwrath fought amongst themselves (a new revolution) and, so, there are some survivors still.
As I said, it seems unlikely that the Thraddash would attack their homeworld.
And if the destruction was because of the Ilwrath themselves, they would have used primitive weaponry, anyway something that won't result in cities radiating energy.
But, anyway, let's say that the energy scan really is scan for energy.

Quote from: Draxas
Quote from: Valaggar
4. All Syreen have been imprisoned on Betelgeuse.

Timeline mismatch. Assuming the Tobermoon was disabled in 2134, the Syreen were still active members of the Alliance, along with all the other members. The Ur-Quan had not yet used the Sa-Matra (though they would in the near future).
Ah, indeed. But, anyway, Syreen don't suffer from such disorders, since they're such a healthy society. Of course, it's possible, but fits in the "weird and unlikely phenomenon" category.

Quote from: Draxas
As for the logs, a well trained crew would erase everything to prevent it from falling into enemy hands. I have no doubt that the crew would do this if they were preparing to surrender.
If the crew surrendered, they wouldn't erase the logs. Else they would get a BIG punishment from the Ur-Quan - so it's better to fight and get blasted. Still, a lucky shot hitting the ship's computer is not only improbable, it's downright impossible - the ship systems were almost intact.
This means that the crew intended that the colonists find the Tobermoon and use it? They didn't know that the colonists will be able to do that - they didn't know of the Precursor installation.

Quote from: Draxas
Says who? The Melnorme visited the Slylandro during the events of SC1, and plenty of other races (Spathi and Shofixti, in particular) have had dealings with them before. Obviously they stayed well hidden from the Ur-Quan during this time, but that doesn't mean they weren't in the sector.
Yes, they were in the sector. It means that the explanation is valid after all - who knows what the Melnorme are capable of... but the Ur-Quan Master would then have to be a very poor pilot to get killed by a Melnorme. Especially since, in open space, the Melnorme won't have any means to surprise the Dreadnought.

So:
A. An Ur-Quan fleet, passing through - en route to  Raynet - detected a Cruiser - the Tobermoon. It surrendered. The Ur-Quan checked the ship's logs, but their warning shot had destroyed them (fortunately). They checked the planets, but the Precursor installation didn't radiate energy. (Draxas) LIKELY
B. The Umgah were the cause (BioSlayer) UNLIKELY
C. The Melnorme were the cause (Narsham) VERY UNLIKELY
D. Some sort of weird and unlikely phenomenon. EXTREMELY UNLIKELY
Logged
Valaggar
Guest


Email
Re: What happened to the Tobermoon in Oort's Cloud?
« Reply #42 on: March 28, 2007, 03:14:45 pm »

Also, a Cruiser can easily defeat an Ur-Quan. This means that there were many, coming from different directions. So the Melnorme don't work.

A. An Ur-Quan fleet, passing through - en route to  Raynet - detected a Cruiser - the Tobermoon. It surrendered. The Ur-Quan checked the ship's logs, but their warning shot had destroyed them (fortunately). They checked the planets, but the Precursor installation didn't radiate energy. (Draxas) LIKELY
B. The Umgah were the cause (BioSlayer) UNLIKELY
C. Some sort of weird and unlikely phenomenon. EXTREMELY UNLIKELY

About Cpt. Chi's surrender - maybe, the punishment for erasing the logs applied only to him as a commanding officer? So he sacrificed himself to save his crew?
Logged
Death 999
Global Moderator
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3870


We did. You did. Yes we can. No.


View Profile
Re: What happened to the Tobermoon in Oort's Cloud?
« Reply #43 on: March 28, 2007, 05:22:07 pm »

A cruiser can easily defeat an Ur-Quan? Huh
You mean Melnorme.


Deletion of the logs is one of the principal duties of a ship's captain, in the event of the ship's capture. And especially in this case!


You include 'Umgah' but have not included 'Ilwrath'. They would love prisoners, wouldn't they?
Logged
Draxas
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1044



View Profile
Re: What happened to the Tobermoon in Oort's Cloud?
« Reply #44 on: March 28, 2007, 05:45:59 pm »

Yes... but I'd say that rather the Ilwrath fought amongst themselves (a new revolution) and, so, there are some survivors still.
As I said, it seems unlikely that the Thraddash would attack their homeworld.
And if the destruction was because of the Ilwrath themselves, they would have used primitive weaponry, anyway something that won't result in cities radiating energy.

Why would the Ilwrath start a civil war? They seem to be happily united in following whatever pronouncements come from channel 44, the discontent generated by the priest caste is a thing of the past. While I admit that it's unlikely that the Thraddash would successfully attack the Ilwrath homeworld, it IS the explanation given by the game.

Also, why is the Ilwrath's weaponry primitive? The Ur-Quan upgraded their technology significantly when they became battle thralls, especially in the area of combat. Even if they had rather primitive weapons before that, they've had several decades to reverse engineer and adapt new technologies from the Ur-Quan designs.

Quote
But, anyway, let's say that the energy scan really is scan for energy.

That would make sense, after all. And everything you would detect on an energy scan in-game has a good reason to radiate said energy. The Precursor installation, however, would not; it has been shut down and dormant for many thousands of years.

Quote
Ah, indeed. But, anyway, Syreen don't suffer from such disorders, since they're such a healthy society. Of course, it's possible, but fits in the "weird and unlikely phenomenon" category.

The Syreen had shaky relations with humankind during the old Alliance years, actually. There were several major incidents leading to some bad blood between the two races, including the Syreen using mental compulsion to keep human crews serving aboard Penetrators against their will.

Quote
If the crew surrendered, they wouldn't erase the logs. Else they would get a BIG punishment from the Ur-Quan - so it's better to fight and get blasted. Still, a lucky shot hitting the ship's computer is not only improbable, it's downright impossible - the ship systems were almost intact.
This means that the crew intended that the colonists find the Tobermoon and use it? They didn't know that the colonists will be able to do that - they didn't know of the Precursor installation.

They most certainly would erase the logs. Surrendering would be a desperate bid for their survival, but bear in mind that the Ur-Quan had not enslaved any of the Alliance races yet. The crew of the Tobermoon would not be concerned with how the Ur-Quan punished their slaves; they have no point of reference for that. Instead, they would be interested in keeping heavily classified information (regarding a top-secret Corridor Nine scientific mission to Vela to investigate a massive subterranean Precursor complex, among other things) out of enemy hands.

Why would the Tobermoon's crew expect the people on the surface to recover the Cruiser? More than likely, they expected the Ur-Quan to tow it off as salvage after their surrender (though not before perusing the log files).

Quote
Also, a Cruiser can easily defeat an Ur-Quan. This means that there were many, coming from different directions.

The hull burns on the Tobermoon attest to the fact that there were either a fleet of Dreadnoughts that a single Cruiser could not handle alone, or a lone Dreadnought that ambushed the Cruiser (AKA, warped in pretty close at the start of combat. As we all know, a Cruiser needs to keep distance from a Dreadnought to have any chance at all).

Quote
You include 'Umgah' but have not included 'Ilwrath'. They would love prisoners, wouldn't they?

They would also probably decloak and incinerate the Cruiser so quickly that surrender would never be an option.
Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!