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Author Topic: What happened to the Tobermoon in Oort's Cloud?  (Read 18287 times)
Death 999
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Re: What happened to the Tobermoon in Oort's Cloud?
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2007, 04:25:55 pm »

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Unless it was an emptier place than TrueSpace.

No, you mean "so long as it isn't millions of time more densely packed with rock than truespace."


Rereading the story, I see that this happened a long time ago, not recently. Well, in that case, it can't very well be attributed to probes.
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Re: What happened to the Tobermoon in Oort's Cloud?
« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2007, 05:00:13 am »

Interested in biodata, yes, but no more than one from a single species.
They've got info on humans, that's sure - even before our first meeting, they knew of us. And they won't accept buy human biodata - another proof that they already have it.

"No more than one from a single species"?  Untrue.  Even if you're assuming that the pictures of lifeforms are purely symbolic and don't actually mean that you're finding the same lifeforms everywhere, there's still the Evil Ones.  You can get... I don't know, ten or so?... of them, and sell them all to the Melnorme.

As for not accepting human biodata, perhaps they just don't want to mention it because they think you'd be angry at the suggestion.  But if they happened upon a ship with a bunch of corpses and no-one to see.... Well, that might be a different matter.

I'm surprised nobody mentioned that we only know the Melnorme want living creatures (They seem to only be stunned and in suspended animation--at least, you can tell the Spathi Council that you have the Evil Ones in suspended animation) so they might not have any use for corpses.

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Have you considered that battle starships are sterilized before usage? It would be very bad for its fighting capacity to let microorganisms thrive inside and cause diseases to the crew.

Even if they normally do this (and I don't think there's anything in canon that says they do) they might not have the facilities at Unzerwalt.

Quote
Plus, how would they get in another dimension without IDF?!

I told you!  "Somehow". Wink  Besides, there's a natural opening into QuasiSpace, so there could be natural openings into other dimensions.
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Re: What happened to the Tobermoon in Oort's Cloud?
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2007, 06:12:02 am »

The Tobermoon was found and attacked by a Dreadnought before it could leave Vela. The Tobermoon's crew, after being singed by a warning shot, decided they were outmatched and surrendered. The Ur-Quan took them aboard, and was about to prepare to tow the Cruiser away and explore where it had originated from, when its long range sensors detected the "hunting cry" of the approaching Kohr-Ah fleet. The Ur-Quan commander instinctively knew the meaning of this, and abandoned its now unimportant salavge and investigation duties, immediately retreating to Ur-Quan space to prepare for the coming Doctrinal Conflict.

While it may have been this way, I don't think it's such a slam dunk explanation.

First there is still a problem of timing. The Kohr-Ah don't enter this part of the galaxy until about 2145 (they destroyed the Gg in 2142). According to the Thraddash, the Kzer-Za didn't zoom off for the doctrinal conflict until about 2140, and the Kzer-Za certainly didn't have problems visiting earth a couple times to restaff the starbase (Hayes was put in about 2147). So even if they detected the Kohr-Ah in 2135, they wouldn't necessarily have dropped everything that instant to go fight. Also, the Kohr-Ah were in route to the Utwig sometime after wiping out the burvixese before they changed course for the doctrinal conflict.

Second, and only a minor point, we don't have any evidence that the Kohr-Ah let out a hunting cry like the Kzer-Za. The Utwig, the druuge, and the Burvixese records don't mention it, but one could argue that it is a Ur-Quan thing and no-one but the Kzer-Za would have had the technology to detect or recognize it.
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Valaggar
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Re: What happened to the Tobermoon in Oort's Cloud?
« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2007, 01:16:58 pm »

So only waywardocaton's explanation it's possible - but it's extremely unlikely since it happens only once in... 10100 times.

But what about... the VUX or Androsynth found the Tobermoon and it surrendered? (no, not the VUX, since they can only defeat cruisers by zero-warping, and this wouldn't let the Cruiser enough time to surrender - but it would explain the deep burns!)
Hmm... the VUX are more likely, though, since Androsynth bubbles can't possibly cause "deep burns", nor their Blazer form. Or...
NO! The 'Synth! A Blazer would certainly inflict damage under the form of deep burns, since it hits the ship multiple times and in different locations with a great deal of concentrated energy!
So a Guardian attacked the ship. The crew surrendered after a while. The nasty clones took the bodies and the remaining shipmates and tortured them. BADLY BADLY!!!
This should be it.


Quote from: waywardoctagon
there's still the Evil Ones.  You can get... I don't know, ten or so?... of them, and sell them all to the Melnorme.
Hmm... "I'd chalk this one up to game balance." Like those strange crew transfers with the Nemesis.
Or maybe there are multiple subspecies of the Evil Ones.

Quote from: waywardoctagon
As for not accepting human biodata, perhaps they just don't want to mention it because they think you'd be angry at the suggestion.
Maybe - since you would need to give the humans alive.
But my other point with their past visits on Earth / information got from one of their sources about us stands still.
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Re: What happened to the Tobermoon in Oort's Cloud?
« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2007, 04:27:01 pm »

First there is still a problem of timing. The Kohr-Ah don't enter this part of the galaxy until about 2145 (they destroyed the Gg in 2142). According to the Thraddash, the Kzer-Za didn't zoom off for the doctrinal conflict until about 2140, and the Kzer-Za certainly didn't have problems visiting earth a couple times to restaff the starbase (Hayes was put in about 2147). So even if they detected the Kohr-Ah in 2135, they wouldn't necessarily have dropped everything that instant to go fight. Also, the Kohr-Ah were in route to the Utwig sometime after wiping out the burvixese before they changed course for the doctrinal conflict.

If the Tobermoon's destruction occurred in 2135, then it's still possible that the "rogue Cruiser" explanation holds up, even without the timely intervention of the Kohr-Ah. I can't imagine that the Ur-Quan's conquest of any race's homeworld means that every colony and combat vessel is out of commission. 2135 means that probably less than a year has passed since Earth was slave shielded, and so I imagine that the Ur-Quan were still finding quite a lot of scattered ships and colonies that were cut off from communications (or perhaps simply refused to acknowledge the surrender). The Tobermoon was likely considered to be just another rogue ship, and the colony at Vela wasn't found because it was small, hadn't really been established yet, and had no telltale signs of its existence detectable from obrit (hyperwave transmissions, a starbase, etc.). The Ur-Quan probably did check the planet out from orbit, but found no anomolous readings and didn't pursue the matter further.

Also, the Kohr-Ah were not enroute to the Utwig, but the Druuge, as evidenced by the fact that they are always the first to die once the Kohr-Ah win the Doctrinal Conflict. They seem to be pretty keen on completing their unfinished business there, and the Druuge's ruse with their caster probably wasn't complete; the Kohr-Ah simply wanted to pursue the easy target that would be difficult to find again later.

Quote
Second, and only a minor point, we don't have any evidence that the Kohr-Ah let out a hunting cry like the Kzer-Za. The Utwig, the druuge, and the Burvixese records don't mention it, but one could argue that it is a Ur-Quan thing and no-one but the Kzer-Za would have had the technology to detect or recognize it.

Remember that the only race that was able to detect the initial Ur-Quan hunting cry was the Chenjesu, because of their much more sensitive natural hyperwave receivers. So we really have no way to know for sure if the Kohr-Ah broadcasted a hunting call, since the Chenjesu were already slave shielded by the time it would be relevant. However, if they did, you can be sure that the Ur-Quan would be certain to have their hyperwave receivers tuned to hear it; the Doctrinal Conflict is probably the biggest deal of all to them, and they would want as much advance warning as possible.
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Valaggar
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Re: What happened to the Tobermoon in Oort's Cloud?
« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2007, 05:17:17 pm »

Yes, in fact an Ur-Quan Kzer-Za Lord would be too proud to salvage the remnants of a Cruiser. Instead, he would let the derelict floating in space as a sign of their superiority.
However, the scars aren't those of a Fusion Blast attack - that ones would be much bigger and badly looking.
Though - if the Dreadnought started firing the Cruiser wouldn't have time to surrender.

I've just come with another explanation: The Cruiser surrendered before the Dreadnought fired any shot. However, after taking the crew into custody, the slimy Lord scarred the Cruiser with a few Fighter lasers before keeping it there...

A LITTLE BIG PROBLEM! An Ur-Quan Lord would have probably also let a recording or something to certify the punishment they had administred to the rebellous rogue Cruiser! Then it had to be a VERY absent-minded 'Quan...
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Re: What happened to the Tobermoon in Oort's Cloud?
« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2007, 06:51:12 pm »

Don't forget! We also have the realms of  "unusual spatial phenomina" answer as well, although I personally like the absent minded Ur-Quan answer...hmmm....Ilwrath maybe?
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Re: What happened to the Tobermoon in Oort's Cloud?
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2007, 06:55:41 pm »

The Cruiser was never hit with direct fire, but skimmed with a warning shot or 2 before surrendering. Though, without the Kohr-Ah to distract the pilot, there really is little reason not to salvage the ship; as the Syreen say, the Ur-Quan waste nothing (so they wouldn't, in fact, leave behind the derelict vessel). Unless, there was another pressing concern that prevented the Ur-Quan from finishing the job right away, say, he was enroute to Delta Gorno...
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Re: What happened to the Tobermoon in Oort's Cloud?
« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2007, 07:00:07 pm »

Quote from: Draxas
The Cruiser was never hit with direct fire, but skimmed with a warning shot or 2 before surrendering.
You mean, they waved the white flag and the Dreadnought still shot them?
Or they didn't surrender until being shot at?!!

Quote from: Draxas
there really is little reason not to salvage the ship; as the Syreen say, the Ur-Quan waste nothing
Is using the derelict ship as a warning wasting it? I don't think so. It can be quite useful.

Quote from: Draxas
Unless, there was another pressing concern that prevented the Ur-Quan from finishing the job right away, say, he was enroute to Delta Gorno...
Timeline mismatch.

Quote from: konthra7
We also have the realms of  "unusual spatial phenomina" answer as well
Yes we do, but it's VERY VERY unusual - 1 in 10100 times, as I said.
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Re: What happened to the Tobermoon in Oort's Cloud?
« Reply #24 on: March 22, 2007, 08:51:19 pm »

The explanation for the first attack was Draxas' Dreadnought, not probes.
meep-eep's Probe was for the second attack (the one when you were enroute to Sol)

I was knocking off my own theory.

Another possibility is that the ship was defeated by combat thralls, who would not need to be as efficient as Ur-Quan.

Mycon? No. VUX? No. Androsynth? No. Spathi? No.
Ilwrath? Possible, but kind of out of place.
Umgah? Same.
Well. That didn't help much.
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Re: What happened to the Tobermoon in Oort's Cloud?
« Reply #25 on: March 22, 2007, 09:36:42 pm »

Quote from: Draxas
The Cruiser was never hit with direct fire, but skimmed with a warning shot or 2 before surrendering.
You mean, they waved the white flag and the Dreadnought still shot them?
Or they didn't surrender until being shot at?!!

"Surrender or die" carries a lot more punch when a fusion bolt shears off your upper layer of hull.

Quote
Quote from: Draxas
there really is little reason not to salvage the ship; as the Syreen say, the Ur-Quan waste nothing
Is using the derelict ship as a warning wasting it? I don't think so. It can be quite useful.

But as a warning against who? As far as they know, nobody is anywhere nearby Vela.

Quote
Quote from: Draxas
Unless, there was another pressing concern that prevented the Ur-Quan from finishing the job right away, say, he was enroute to Delta Gorno...
Timeline mismatch.

How so? I thought the Tobermoon was launched again shortly after the colonists landed, to report back to StarControl about their situation.
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Re: What happened to the Tobermoon in Oort's Cloud?
« Reply #26 on: March 23, 2007, 07:08:46 am »

If the Tobermoon's destruction occurred in 2135, then it's still possible that the "rogue Cruiser" explanation holds up, even without the timely intervention of the Kohr-Ah. I can't imagine that the Ur-Quan's conquest of any race's homeworld means that every colony and combat vessel is out of commission. 2135 means that probably less than a year has passed since Earth was slave shielded, and so I imagine that the Ur-Quan were still finding quite a lot of scattered ships and colonies that were cut off from communications (or perhaps simply refused to acknowledge the surrender). The Tobermoon was likely considered to be just another rogue ship, and the colony at Vela wasn't found because it was small, hadn't really been established yet, and had no telltale signs of its existence detectable from obrit (hyperwave transmissions, a starbase, etc.). The Ur-Quan probably did check the planet out from orbit, but found no anomolous readings and didn't pursue the matter further.

I like the argument that whoever did attack the Tobermoon wouldn't necessarily find the Vela colony since those who stayed behind on Unzervalt hid in the cave for six months after the Tobermoon took off. Also, looking back at the manual, the Tobermoon actually left Unzervalt on Aug 11, 2134 and it looks like earth surrendered 2135, so if it was attacked by Hierarchy, my bet is it was before earth's surrender. In fact, the Tobermoon left soon after the Hierarchy had broken through the mira-indi line, which means that the hierarchy was likely mopping up the Chenjesu and Mmrnmhrm around this time (they say they took slave status in 2135).

While I like an Hierarchy attacker, either Ur-Quan or Thrall, the mystery still is the derelict ship. Notice that the Ur-Quan destroyed all Cruisers when they subjugated Earth. I have trouble seeing them leaving one behind, especially for twenty years. And the other thralls, VUX wouldn't have taken survivors (unless if it was ZEX, but then why does he want the Captain if he already had some humans...). The 'Synth hate humans too much to take survivors. They operated in hit-and-run squads - not very likely to even let a ship get off a surrender (or acknowledge it if a Cruiser did). And the Mycon, they Void anything not Juffo-Wup. Like Valaggar said, the others like the Spathi, Ilwrath, and Umgah are too out of place, and the Ilwrath is the only one of those three that I would think would take survivors and leave a ship. So if it was an Hierarchy attacker, my money is on an Ilwrath doing a rearward reconnaissance mission.

Quote
Also, the Kohr-Ah were not enroute to the Utwig, but the Druuge, as evidenced by the fact that they are always the first to die once the Kohr-Ah win the Doctrinal Conflict. They seem to be pretty keen on completing their unfinished business there, and the Druuge's ruse with their caster probably wasn't complete; the Kohr-Ah simply wanted to pursue the easy target that would be difficult to find again later.

Um, no. The Kohr-Ah were heading from the Gg to our space because of the Druuge, but then the Druuge played their little trick to get the Burvixese destroyed. And then the Kohr-Ah went after the Utwig:
Quote from: Utwig
However, while we are on the subject of evil and powerful species we have encountered a particularly gruesome race that seemed to come from the direction of Arcturus. When we hailed them, they responded with mighty weapons that sent our delegation to their deaths lucky fools.
...
When the Kohr-Ah started to press towards our homeworld we thought that our deserved punishment was being administered. But then, a mystery? They suddenly became disinterested and veered away. Bah! Confounding frustration!
The reason they probably went after the Druuge first after winning the Conflict is that the Druuge had once again broadcasting advertisements assuming they had successful avoided the Kohr-Ah threat.

And one last thing (really I promise) just so we don't embellish the combat scars - the description of the battle damage is "deep burns along [the Tobermoon's] hull." I don't know if it's significant (it does seem almost as strange as the lack of bodies) but we also know that "most of the important ship systems were intact" - in fact the engineers from The Flagship got her up and running in a few days (dang good engineers), though that might explain why the Probe knocked it out so easily.
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Re: What happened to the Tobermoon in Oort's Cloud?
« Reply #27 on: March 23, 2007, 03:28:53 pm »

 Cool
WOW!!! Spectacular reasoning, FyzixFighter!
And you re-gifted live to the mystery. On behalf of the Arilou Research Team, I thank you.  Wink
Though you also solved (maybe!) the second attack mystery.

Hmm... let me think about it (2nd attack) - a disabled Space Vessel is still a Space Vessel, most likely, since there could be survivors. Then the second attack is still a Mystery for my Team.
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Re: What happened to the Tobermoon in Oort's Cloud?
« Reply #28 on: March 24, 2007, 05:04:46 pm »

Quote
Second, and only a minor point, we don't have any evidence that the Kohr-Ah let out a hunting cry like the Kzer-Za. The Utwig, the druuge, and the Burvixese records don't mention it, but one could argue that it is a Ur-Quan thing and no-one but the Kzer-Za would have had the technology to detect or recognize it.

Remember that the only race that was able to detect the initial Ur-Quan hunting cry was the Chenjesu, because of their much more sensitive natural hyperwave receivers. So we really have no way to know for sure if the Kohr-Ah broadcasted a hunting call, since the Chenjesu were already slave shielded by the time it would be relevant. However, if they did, you can be sure that the Ur-Quan would be certain to have their hyperwave receivers tuned to hear it; the Doctrinal Conflict is probably the biggest deal of all to them, and they would want as much advance warning as possible.

Oh frell, I just found one example of a possible Kohr-Ah hunting cry, granted it was after they "cleansed" the ZFP. Hayes relates that "We did receive an alien broadcast however -- it rang through space like an electronic howl. I think the best way to describe it would be exultant." if you don't respond in time to the ZFP call for help. Call me stubborn, but I'm still skeptical of that scenario (Kzer-Za attacker getting distracted by a Kohr-Ah transmission) due to the timing issue - we don't know how close the Kohr-Ah were in 2134-5 or if they wiped someone out in that time frame; and the behavior pattern - we don't know if a Kzer-Za would be utterly distracted by the howl. I'm totally comfortable though with shrugging my shoulders at the whole mess and going "meh".
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Re: What happened to the Tobermoon in Oort's Cloud?
« Reply #29 on: March 24, 2007, 05:37:20 pm »

Okay, let's recap *briefly*.

 Our possibilites are:
 
 1)A Kzer-Za Dreadnaught, upon disabling the cruiser, became distracted by a Kor-Ah battle cry.

 2)An Illwrath, either as a recon or out of boredom, attacked the cruiser and accepted their surrender. Consdering presidence from some of their earlier posts(See: Luna), we can safely assume that they grew bored and left to torture their newest victims. Since they may or may not have been supposed to e there, they may not have reported it.

 3)Opps(otherwise kown as Act of God or some freak of nature). We've more or less ruled this one out because it's improbable, see Douglas Adams, and it's les entertaining than the other two.

 I think that's it. I miss any?
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They bowed to me, but I bade them stand. They cheered to me, but I made them silent. They fought for me and I bade them peace. They died for me, and I am content.
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