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| | |-+  Injection 8: Utwig and Yehat shielding, Umgah retropropulsion
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Author Topic: Injection 8: Utwig and Yehat shielding, Umgah retropropulsion  (Read 6999 times)
Cronos
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Re: Injection 8: Utwig and Yehat shielding, Umgah retropropulsion
« Reply #30 on: March 26, 2007, 12:09:48 am »

With regards to automation and shielding.

Extensive field tests have revealed that computers, no matter how powerful, simply dont have the cajones for field combat.

Space battles are by their very nature far too complex for the strictures of logic, the realm in which computers are forever chained. There is frankly too much information to be processed in too little time for any logical, non-sentient machine to handle.

Gut instincts, reflexes and sudden random bouts of insipiration put logical non-sentient machines to shame in the battlefield, leading to the preference of manual control of vital systems such as fire control and shielding.

Special exceptions to the rule abound however.

Human missiles were upgraded at the start of the war with a special bio-crystalline guidance system from the chenjesu. The creature, a semi-sentient thermovore was the perfect candidate to replace the outdated 20th century electronics. Capable of adaptivity and diabolical cunning, the creatures resistance to radiation, fecundity, crystalline nature (rendering it somewhat immune to electronic countermeasures), and ability to go for centuries lying in dormancy made it the quick, cheap, and effective way to upgrade humanities effective but inept weaponry at the start of the war.

Chmmr Zapsats are controlled by a similar creature that in it's natural environ employs a ray of light to scare predators away. With some creative engineering, the chmmr have bonded these creatures to compatible Mrrrnmhrrm technologies to create one of the most powerful automated defense platforms available to the alliance fleet.
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Jumping *Peppers*
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Re: Injection 8: Utwig and Yehat shielding, Umgah retropropulsion
« Reply #31 on: March 26, 2007, 02:02:17 am »

Heh, I like the idea of the Chenjesu using "thinking" crystals in their ship's equipment. Could create a lot of possiblities...
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Quote from: Arne, on the origin of the Mycon
Maybe a precursor were just like "Hey I built this mushroom thing, it can traavel between plaaanets!" and the others were like "Yaaaay!" and then they all deliriously clapped their hands and giggled like little schoolgirls.
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Re: Injection 8: Utwig and Yehat shielding, Umgah retropropulsion
« Reply #32 on: March 26, 2007, 09:10:36 am »

I remember reading somewhere that if you dont go at a planet from the right angle / speed you will bounce off the atmosphere... if this is true that means that planetary damage is the same thing that happens when your car hits a cliff going 100 mph... the tougher the car, the more it will hurt the crew when THEY hit IT. (to break the analogy, the crew is smashing up against the ship hull...)


As for automatic shielding, it will be immensly valuable, yes its problematic at times (ex, when you are attacked by ur quan fighters). Ideally button 2 would be to disable / enable shield automatation. But if the yehet were invincible the game wouldn't be any fun Smiley


Yes its fun to try to make theories, but some things can ONLY be explanained as "this is a game"...


the umgah reverse thrust is useful for escape, but my guess is that it is related to their antimatter cone... actually, a better way to think of it is that the umgah ships fight backwards... their immensly powerful antimatter engines can be used to quickly propel them, or they can just eject a cone of antimatter... while their slow "reverse thursters" move that deadly antimatter cone from their primary engines towards the enemy... (ie, we just THOUGHT it was reverse thurst, but they were flying forwards, they just dont have any guns, instead they blast the enemy with the antimatter engines).
Or its psychological, there are plenty of races that are complete WHACKO in the SC2 universe...
Psychological can be the explanation for almost everything, cause it actually FITS with the plot so well... spathi are cowards, umgah insane pranksters, orz are the bizzare manifistations of an extra dimensional entity... etc etc...
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Valaggar
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Re: Injection 8: Utwig and Yehat shielding, Umgah retropropulsion
« Reply #33 on: March 26, 2007, 02:17:34 pm »

Eh, you see? We must use the psychological explanation.

I mean, jucce, there are such good AIs in the world already and you say that 147 years in the future there won't be? Especially since the Utwig and Yehat are older starfaring species than Earthlings. Plus, even the Awesome AI is good enough at shielding, only if you revert to manual shielding in that "faking" cases.

As for the limits of the shield - taltamir:
Quote from: taltamir
I remember reading somewhere that if you dont go at a planet from the right angle / speed you will bounce off the atmosphere... if this is true that means that planetary damage is the same thing that happens when your car hits a cliff going 100 mph... the tougher the car, the more it will hurt the crew when THEY hit IT. (to break the analogy, the crew is smashing up against the ship hull...)
What do you mean by this? That collisions with the planet actually don't damage the ship, only the crew?
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Zeep-Eeep
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Re: Injection 8: Utwig and Yehat shielding, Umgah retropropulsion
« Reply #34 on: March 26, 2007, 05:43:21 pm »

About Zeep-Eeep's explanation of planetary collision - yes, but as Elvish Pillager said, the Blazer deals more damage.

This is true _some_ of the time. As I recall, the blazer does 3(?) points of damage. When a ship hits the planet
it loses 1/4 of its crew.  I think it's possible for a Chmmr (for example) to lose ten crew at once hitting the planet.
I don't think there are any cases where one hit from a blazer can do this.

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The retro-thrust is to allow the Drone to retreat? It's always used to attack, in fact. I think it's about their psychology, not tactics.

Again _some_ of the time it's used for attack. The Drones also use the feature to get out of the way or circle behind a
slower ship in close quarters. Human players may also use it to attack or retreat. Sometimes both.
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Valaggar
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Re: Injection 8: Utwig and Yehat shielding, Umgah retropropulsion
« Reply #35 on: March 26, 2007, 05:50:06 pm »

Arguably, the retro-thrust would be better for attack (mounted forward).

As for the planet-Blazer comparison - I said that collisions with the planet are too abstract, so we must not take them as arguments.
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Narsham
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Re: Injection 8: Utwig and Yehat shielding, Umgah retropropulsion
« Reply #36 on: March 27, 2007, 02:29:29 am »

There's a fairly easy answer for B... concentrated fire from a fleet.

Since SC2 melee is always one-on-one, that solution isn't available.  But within the fictional universe, fleet combat is indeed possible.

Either the Utwig shield loses some amount of energy every hit as heat, or it violates thermodynamics and can reverse entropy.  Let's assume the former.  Presumably, the more energy the shield has to block at once, the greater the loss to entropy.

Observations in SC2 melee suggest that none of the in-game ships can cause enough loss to overcome the shield.  But perhaps 4 Avatars concentrating fire can cause an appreciable energy loss.  Alternately, the shielding system may simply not be able to disperse heat beyond a certain point and may be forced to shut itself down.  Again, so long as the threshold is posited as greater than the damage a single SC2 ship can pump out, you need a fleet to succeed.

Narsham
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Elvish Pillager
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Re: Injection 8: Utwig and Yehat shielding, Umgah retropropulsion
« Reply #37 on: March 27, 2007, 11:23:38 am »

Either the Utwig shield loses some amount of energy every hit as heat, or it violates thermodynamics and can reverse entropy.

Neither. It is able to keep going because the enemy keeps handing it free energy.
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jucce
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Re: Injection 8: Utwig and Yehat shielding, Umgah retropropulsion
« Reply #38 on: March 27, 2007, 01:02:20 pm »

Eh, you see? We must use the psychological explanation.

I mean, jucce, there are such good AIs in the world already and you say that 147 years in the future there won't be? Especially since the Utwig and Yehat are older starfaring species than Earthlings. Plus, even the Awesome AI is good enough at shielding, only if you revert to manual shielding in that "faking" cases.

As for the limits of the shield - taltamir:
Quote from: taltamir
I remember reading somewhere that if you dont go at a planet from the right angle / speed you will bounce off the atmosphere... if this is true that means that planetary damage is the same thing that happens when your car hits a cliff going 100 mph... the tougher the car, the more it will hurt the crew when THEY hit IT. (to break the analogy, the crew is smashing up against the ship hull...)
What do you mean by this? That collisions with the planet actually don't damage the ship, only the crew?
Well my idea is basically what Cronos was saying too. But who knows if the pilots are arrogant thinking they can handle it.
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Valaggar
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Re: Injection 8: Utwig and Yehat shielding, Umgah retropropulsion
« Reply #39 on: March 27, 2007, 02:16:22 pm »

Quote from: jucce
Well my idea is basically what Cronos was saying too. But who knows if the pilots are arrogant thinking they can handle it.
Yes, rather arrogance.
As I said, even present AIs (e.g. Awesome AI) can handle such a simple thing as shielding.

Quote from: Narsham
Observations in SC2 melee suggest that none of the in-game ships can cause enough loss to overcome the shield.  But perhaps 4 Avatars concentrating fire can cause an appreciable energy loss.  Alternately, the shielding system may simply not be able to disperse heat beyond a certain point and may be forced to shut itself down.  Again, so long as the threshold is posited as greater than the damage a single SC2 ship can pump out, you need a fleet to succeed.
So just as I said: concentrate enough energy in a single spot on the shield to break through it.
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Narsham
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Re: Injection 8: Utwig and Yehat shielding, Umgah retropropulsion
« Reply #40 on: March 29, 2007, 05:20:38 pm »

Either the Utwig shield loses some amount of energy every hit as heat, or it violates thermodynamics and can reverse entropy.

Neither. It is able to keep going because the enemy keeps handing it free energy.

I really have to suspect the shield is only really effective in brief combat conditions.  Otherwise, if it can absorb and retain so much energy without strain on the system, then the Utwig would have potentially limitless access to energy by using it.

The power of SC2 ship weapons isn't going to approach the energy output of a sun.  If the Utwig shield doesn't have some sort of breaking point or stress point, the Utwig could absorb solar power, too.

At the very least, whatever means they use to shunt the energy absorbed by the shield to ship's batteries must involve massive inefficiencies compared with the (postulated) efficiency of the shield itself.

I think it's pretty clear the ability of the shield to absorb infinite amounts of energy even when batteries are full, without doing anything at all with the extra power, indicates a game-mechanics decision.  Unless the ship's shields dump their excess energy into another dimension.  That might explain why the Orz were so eager to get into Realspace...

Narsham
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