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Topic: The Shape of the HyperSpace Galaxy (Read 10771 times)
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Valaggar
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Just 1. and 4. look plausible.
And 4. is unlikely since they can't rebel with their fleet gone. In fact, that would make it easier for Dreadnoughts stationed in the area to quell insurrections.
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Draxas
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"Rapidly subjugated" is a relative term. It took the Ur-Quan 5 years to finish with the Thraddash and start on the Umgah, and apparently another 6 before they moved on to the Ilwrath. Only the Spathi were truly subjugated rapidly, and that's most likely because they all screamed in terror at the invading armada instead of resisting like everyone else.
The Kzer-Za leave their battle thralls behind because it would be impossible to administrate that large a slave empire effectively. More than likely, once they have moved far enough through space and subjugated a large enough area, they demand that their former battle thralls join all of the other races in the region as fallow slaves before they move on. Otherwise they would be leaving behind autonomous alien races, and it wouldn't take long before those races decide that they owe no allegiance to the Ur-Quan anymore. Nowhere in the agreement to become a battle thrall does it say anything other than "limited autonomy," which implies by its very nature that it is limited by the desires of the Ur-Quan.
There is scant little evidence to back up the idea that the Kohr-Ah moved more slowly than the Kzer-Za. While it's true that they didn't have battle thralls to support their efforts, they also had a much more straightforward goal. Whereas the Kzer-Za would spend time negotiating terms of surrender with subjugated races (Earthlings, Syreen), reorganizing slave governments (Thraddash), uplifing the technology of new battle thralls to make them useful in combat (Ilwarth), strategically redeploy forces to strike at weaker targets first (Ilwrath, VUX), etc., the Kohr-Ah simply attack without hesitation, and use the most extreme measures at their disposal. It's also worth noting that the Kohr-Ah would never face a force akin to the old Alliance, since they strike swiftly and without warning against whatever targets they find, and would not allow their targets enough time to organize a collective resistance. After all, once the Death March begins, the Kohr-Ah exterminate every race in the sector very quickly, regardless of their allies and even without using the Sa-Matra (since it never moves during the course of the game). I think you're giving the Kzer-Za too much credit, and the Kohr-Ah not enough; chances are that their areas of conquest vs. cleansing are approximately 50/50.
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Valaggar
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If they were taken with the Ur-Quan fleet, they couldn't rebel. Just in front of the nose-equivalents of their masters?!
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Draxas
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You can't take the entire race in a fleet. That's just silly. And anyone left behind is likely to rebel as soon as the Ur-Quan leave the immediate area of space.
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Valaggar
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Anyone left behind will not rebel because they don't have a fleet to do so, and because the Ur-Quan leave some Dreadnought behind.
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Draxas
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That's foolish. Much easier to just destroy all military technology, slave shield the former battle thralls, and move the entire armada to the next sector when all are enslaved. It eliminates the need to split forces, avoids the possibility of having to quell a rebellion, and is far easier to administrate. There is no need to even leave autonomous aliens behind to keep order, since their entire region of space has been enslaved anyway. Besides, the Ur-Quan's battle thralls tend to be the most violent and militaristic of all the natives in any given area (at least, judging from our experience), and with a reduced Ur-Quan presence, they're even more likely to decide they don't like being slaves anymore.
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Valaggar
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Then why not take only their fleet and slaveshield their civilian population?
"Rapidly subjugated" is a relative term. It took the Ur-Quan 5 years to finish with the Thraddash and start on the Umgah, and apparently another 6 before they moved on to the Ilwrath. Only the Spathi were truly subjugated rapidly, and that's most likely because they all screamed in terror at the invading armada instead of resisting like everyone else. Ah-ah, Pahoy-hoy! (where did you get the numbers from?) So 5.5 years per species, i.e. 110 years per unit-region... yay! The war was far from 33% (since the Ur-Quan had to face an alliance, so not even 33% as it were against the species separated) when the Ur-Quan decided to use the Sa-Matra. And "the Ur-Quan were slowly winning" even before. But how could you tell that so early?! Eh, anyway...
So 110 years per u-reg. 17,500/110=159 unit-regions conquered by the Kzer-Za.
We'll admit a 50/50 ratio between the Kohr-Ah and the Kzer-Za achievements, so 159 unit-regions agnigilated by the Kohr-Ah. That is, 3180 species. Nope, the Kohr-Ah have agnigilated over 5000 species.
No, if you go with a 50/50 ratio, then the Kohr-Ah and the Kzer-Za have defeated 303 unit-regions each (we're much more sure as to the Kohr-Ah amount). Kzer-Za defeated 6060 species in 17,500 years, that is, a species in 2.88 years. (faster than in our unit-region for who knows what reasons, for example that there wasn't an Alliance of Free Stars to worry about, and perhaps they HAD battle thralls along their forces too).
HEY, THIS SEEMS REASONABLE!
After all, once the Death March begins, the Kohr-Ah exterminate every race in the sector very quickly, regardless of their allies and even without using the Sa-Matra (since it never moves during the course of the game). That ain't an argument, it's just a game mechanic to make everything more playable - just as wars during the game last very little time, otherwise you'd be required to wait for years to get the Aqua Helix.
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Draxas
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Then why not take only their fleet and slaveshield their civilian population?
Because eventually the slave-fleets will become so numerous that even the Ur-Quan's superior individual might will not be able to prevent or stand against a revolt. That's why the Ur-Quan only maintain a small number of battle thralls at a time; if their combined might ever outstrips the Ur-Quan's, they might decide that they have other options besides "submit or die."
Ah-ah, Pahoy-hoy! (where did you get the numbers from?)
Here: http://uqm.stack.nl/wiki/Timeline
They're not exact, but they make for feasible approximations.
So 5.5 years per species, i.e. 110 years per unit-region... yay! The war was far from 33% (since the Ur-Quan had to face an alliance, so not even 33% as it were against the species separated) when the Ur-Quan decided to use the Sa-Matra. And "the Ur-Quan were slowly winning" even before. But how could you tell that so early?! Eh, anyway...
So 110 years per u-reg. 17,500/110=159 unit-regions conquered by the Kzer-Za.
We'll admit a 50/50 ratio between the Kohr-Ah and the Kzer-Za achievements, so 159 unit-regions agnigilated by the Kohr-Ah. That is, 3180 species. Nope, the Kohr-Ah have agnigilated over 5000 species.
No, if you go with a 50/50 ratio, then the Kohr-Ah and the Kzer-Za have defeated 303 unit-regions each (we're much more sure as to the Kohr-Ah amount). Kzer-Za defeated 6060 species in 17,500 years, that is, a species in 2.88 years. (faster than in our unit-region for who knows what reasons, for example that there wasn't an Alliance of Free Stars to worry about, and perhaps they HAD battle thralls along their forces too).
HEY, THIS SEEMS REASONABLE!
Chances are, cooperative resistance on the scale of the old Alliance is fairly rare in the Ur-Quan's experience. More often that not, there is no advance warning, and the fleet simply subjugates one or two races at a time (since most races seem to either keep to themselves, or only get along well with one of their closest neighbors; see Supox & Utwig, Shofixti & Yehat, Chenjesu & Mmrn, etc.). Also, there are plenty of races to subjugate (or cleanse) like the Burvixese or Gg, that either can't or don't have spacefleets. Either Ur-Quan could easily deal with such a race in a matter of days. There are also races like the ZoqFotPik, who put up so little resistance that they are easily conquered or eliminated with haste (after all, it takes a single Marauder only a few months to cleanse the ZFP, assuming you let it happen). I think it's a fair assumption that the Ur-Quan took so long enslaving some of their battle thralls because of the unique situations inherent in the process: The Thraddash had to be prevented from exterminating themselves (and they almost succeeded regardless; the Ur-Quan probably left them behind instead of uplifting them like the Ilwrath because of this attitude paired with the fact that they were under no immediate pressure to build up a stronger fleet), the Umgah had to be "reeducated" about their particular sense of humor (which was a complete failure, as they continue to lack any sort of discipline whatsoever), the Ilwrath had to be taught how to produce a fighting vessel strong enough to make them worthwhile in the conflict against the Chenjesu and Mmrn (since they were situated directly on the front for that battle), the Spathi had to be coerced multiple times into actually fighting. The Ur-Quan didn't acquire any battle thralls worthy of the title until they subjugated the Androsynth, VUX, and Mycon, which is why those conquests went much more swiftly; those thralls were willing to fight, able to fight, and didn't require an extensive process of rehabilitation and acclimation like the others.
That ain't an argument, it's just a game mechanic to make everything more playable - just as wars during the game last very little time, otherwise you'd be required to wait for years to get the Aqua Helix.
Says who? I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect the Kohr-Ah to crush the weak and unsuspecting that quickly. In any case where one of those races would be able to put up a decent fight, there's a good reason why they wouldn't. As for the Aqua Helix... Well, just steal it from your Thraddash allies like everyone else. Barring that, though, the war against the Ilwrath is over so quickly because they're the two most innately violent races in the scetor. They also wouldn't be using particularly sophisticated tactics against each other; the Ilwrath are blinded by their religious fervor for the newest pronoucements of Dogar and Kazon, and the Thraddash have no sense of tactics to begin with (which is why self-mutilation and brutal infighting are considered legitimate legacies of Cultures gone by).
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Valaggar
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Because eventually the slave-fleets will become so numerous that even the Ur-Quan's superior individual might will not be able to prevent or stand against a revolt. That's why the Ur-Quan only maintain a small number of battle thralls at a time; if their combined might ever outstrips the Ur-Quan's, they might decide that they have other options besides "submit or die." Are the battle thralls able to cooperate in this measure? I don't think so. Also, consider having them strategically dispersed in order not to be able to plot a conspiracy.
Of course I know about that article, I was the one who added the 17,500 BCE entry... so your numbers were just educated guesses...
Chances are, cooperative resistance on the scale of the old Alliance is fairly rare in the Ur-Quan's experience. More often that not, there is no advance warning, and the fleet simply subjugates one or two races at a time (since most races seem to either keep to themselves, or only get along well with one of their closest neighbors; see Supox & Utwig, Shofixti & Yehat, Chenjesu & Mmrn, etc.). Also, there are plenty of races to subjugate (or cleanse) like the Burvixese or Gg, that either can't or don't have spacefleets. Either Ur-Quan could easily deal with such a race in a matter of days. There are also races like the ZoqFotPik, who put up so little resistance that they are easily conquered or eliminated with haste (after all, it takes a single Marauder only a few months to cleanse the ZFP, assuming you let it happen). I think it's a fair assumption that the Ur-Quan took so long enslaving some of their battle thralls because of the unique situations inherent in the process: The Thraddash had to be prevented from exterminating themselves (and they almost succeeded regardless; the Ur-Quan probably left them behind instead of uplifting them like the Ilwrath because of this attitude paired with the fact that they were under no immediate pressure to build up a stronger fleet), the Umgah had to be "reeducated" about their particular sense of humor (which was a complete failure, as they continue to lack any sort of discipline whatsoever), the Ilwrath had to be taught how to produce a fighting vessel strong enough to make them worthwhile in the conflict against the Chenjesu and Mmrn (since they were situated directly on the front for that battle), the Spathi had to be coerced multiple times into actually fighting. The Ur-Quan didn't acquire any battle thralls worthy of the title until they subjugated the Androsynth, VUX, and Mycon, which is why those conquests went much more swiftly; those thralls were willing to fight, able to fight, and didn't require an extensive process of rehabilitation and acclimation like the others. So a species in 2.88 years is too slow? About this would be the average for our unit-region except the Alliance of Free Stars.
Says who? I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect the Kohr-Ah to crush the weak and unsuspecting that quickly. In any case where one of those races would be able to put up a decent fight, there's a good reason why they wouldn't. As for the Aqua Helix... Well, just steal it from your Thraddash allies like everyone else. Barring that, though, the war against the Ilwrath is over so quickly because they're the two most innately violent races in the scetor. They also wouldn't be using particularly sophisticated tactics against each other; the Ilwrath are blinded by their religious fervor for the newest pronoucements of Dogar and Kazon, and the Thraddash have no sense of tactics to begin with (which is why self-mutilation and brutal infighting are considered legitimate legacies of Cultures gone by). Nine months per unit-region for Kohr-Ah? In 17,500 years, they'd agnigilate 23,333 unit-regions. Way too much... unless you consider the same for the Kzer-Za.
But, somehow, the spirits of FF&PR3 tell me that this is just a gameplay mechanic and nothing else.
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Draxas
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Are the battle thralls able to cooperate in this measure? I don't think so. Also, consider having them strategically dispersed in order not to be able to plot a conspiracy.
They've conquered at least one entire sector together (their own), with enough unity it would only take one small spark to start the fires of revolt. And dispersement is impossible if the entire fleet is moving to a new sector.
Of course I know about that article, I was the one who added the 17,500 BCE entry... so your numbers were just educated guesses...
Give or take, but it doesn't really matter; the most important dates are all known, and we have enough extra dates to get a reasonably clear picture of what happened. For example, we know the exact date of the hunting cry, and the exact date of the Ilwrath's subjugation. In between those events, we know that the Thraddash and Umgah were both subjugated. Now, it could have taken 10 years to subjugate the Thraddash and only 1 for the Umgah, but that's probably not the case; it's more likely that the times were approximately equal.
Nine months per unit-region for Kohr-Ah? In 17,500 years, they'd agnigilate 23,333 unit-regions. Way too much... unless you consider the same for the Kzer-Za.
But, somehow, the spirits of FF&PR3 tell me that this is just a gameplay mechanic and nothing else.
Think about the races they cleanse, and you'll see none of them have much, if any, fight left in them to mount much of a resistance. I think this is the exception, rather than the rule; normally they would move more slowly, and scour each sector for filth, rather than simply take the Kzer-Za's compiled records and go on the extermination tour. However, I have no doubt that once they've homed in on a particular race, they probably wouldn't last terribly long.
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Valaggar
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They've conquered at least one entire sector together (their own), with enough unity it would only take one small spark to start the fires of revolt. And dispersement is impossible if the entire fleet is moving to a new sector. OK, OK.
Give or take, but it doesn't really matter; the most important dates are all known, and we have enough extra dates to get a reasonably clear picture of what happened. For example, we know the exact date of the hunting cry, and the exact date of the Ilwrath's subjugation. In between those events, we know that the Thraddash and Umgah were both subjugated. Now, it could have taken 10 years to subjugate the Thraddash and only 1 for the Umgah, but that's probably not the case; it's more likely that the times were approximately equal. Anyway, the Thraddash, Umgah, Ilwrath and Androsynth were enslaved in 15 years: 3.75 years per species.
So the Ur-Quan Kzer-Za defeated between 17,500/2.88=6000 and 17,500/5=3500 species, that is, between 175 and 300 unit-regions.
And the Ur-Quan Kohr-Ah, then, between 300 and 700 unit-regions.
So the entire galaxy has between 475 and 1000 unit-regions.
<thread killed>
<ARGH!>
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« Last Edit: April 13, 2007, 06:18:27 pm by Valaggar »
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Valaggar
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They can't miss each other, they have surely planned their paths so as to meet each other. And the Taalo (and eventually the Faz) being from our sector doesn't prove anything - the Milieu spanned (almost) the entire galaxy, as did the Dnyarri Slave Empire. And it is explicitly said by the Melnorme that the Ur-Quan are not from our region of space.
Not to mention Draxas' and my calculations, which prove the same thing.
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« Last Edit: April 24, 2007, 02:38:45 pm by Valaggar »
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