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Question: Do you feel like the cost values of ships must be re-calculated?
Definitely!
Most, yes.
Some, yes.
Too few.
No way!

Author Topic: Cost balancing project  (Read 20150 times)
Valaggar
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Cost balancing project
« on: April 08, 2007, 06:26:07 pm »

As you know, I'm undertaking a cost balancing project. Now, the method I used for this thing was taking the ships one by one and assigning each match-up of the current ship a value corresponding to how well it fares in the match-up.

I did so for a number of ships (I made a few mistakes in some places, but thanks to Cedric 6014 and myself, I fixed them) and I even used a _LAME_ algorithm for deriving new costs - simply adding the match-up how-well-it-fares-numbers.

Thanks to Elvish Pillager, however, I was able to compute a better algorithm: add the how-well-it-fares-numbers for each ship (to find out how hard it is to be killed, overall) and, so, find the X value, corresponding to how hard to be beaten is each ship.

So it will matter more to be able to destroy hard-to-destroy ships.

Anyway, this is the match-up value for each ship:
(WARNING! LONG LIST! TO SKIP PRESS HERE!)

VUX:
Ur-Quan -2
Chmmr -1
Kohr-Ah -2
Chenjesu -2
Orz -2
Yehat -0.5
Utwig -1
Mycon -2
Pkunk +1.5
Mmrnmhrm -2
Melnorme -1
Spathi -2
Druuge -1
Slylandro +2
Supox -2
Arilou +1
Androsynth -1
Syreen -2
Earthling +0.5
VUX 0
Ilwrath 0
Thraddash -1
Umgah +1.5
Zoq-Fot-Pik -2
Shofixti -1


Ilwrath:
Ur-Quan -2
Chmmr -2
Kohr-Ah -2
Chenjesu -2
Orz -2
Yehat -2
Utwig -2
Mycon +0.5
Pkunk 0
Mmrnmhrm 0
Melnorme -2
Spathi -1
Druuge -1
Slylandro +1
Supox -2
Arilou 0
Androsynth +0.5
Syreen -2
Earthling +1
VUX 0
Ilwrath 0
Thraddash 0
Umgah +0.5
Zoq-Fot-Pik -2
Shofixti -2


Umgah:
Ur-Quan -2
Chmmr -2
Kohr-Ah -2
Chenjesu -2
Orz -2
Yehat -2
Utwig -2
Mycon -2
Pkunk 0
Mmrnmhrm -2
Melnorme -2
Spathi -2
Druuge -2
Slylandro -1
Supox -1
Arilou -0.5
Androsynth -2
Syreen -2
Earthling -1
VUX -1.5
Ilwrath -0.5
Zoq-Fot-Pik -2
Shofixti 0
Umgah 0
Thraddash +2


Ur-Quan:
Ur-Quan 0
Chmmr 0
Kohr-Ah 0
Chenjesu 0
Orz -2
Yehat +1
Utwig -1.5
Mycon +1
Pkunk -0.5
Mmrnmhrm -1
Melnorme +1
Spathi -2
Druuge +1
Slylandro +1.5
Supox -2
Arilou +1
Androsynth +1.5
Syreen +1.5
Earthling +1
VUX +0.5
Ilwrath +2
Zoq-Fot-Pik +2
Shofixti -1
Umgah +2
Thraddash -2


Slylandro:
Ur-Quan -1
Chmmr -2
Kohr-Ah -1.5
Chenjesu -1.5
Orz +1
Yehat -0.5
Utwig -1
Mycon +2
Pkunk 0
Mmrnmhrm -2
Melnorme +1.5
Spathi 0
Druuge -1
Slylandro 0
Supox +1.5
Arilou +2
Androsynth +1
Syreen +1
Earthling +1
VUX +0.5
Ilwrath -1
Zoq-Fot-Pik +1
Shofixti 0
Umgah 0
Thraddash +2


Earthling:
Ur-Quan -1
Chmmr -2
Kohr-Ah -2
Chenjesu -1
Orz -2
Yehat -2
Utwig -2
Mycon -2
Pkunk -1.5
Mmrnmhrm -1
Melnorme -2
Spathi -1
Druuge +0.5
Slylandro -1
Supox -1.5
Arilou +0.5
Androsynth -2
Syreen +0.5
Earthling 0
VUX 0
Ilwrath -1
Zoq-Fot-Pik -0.5
Shofixti 0
Umgah +2
Thraddash +2


Shofixti:
Ur-Quan -1.5
Chmmr -1
Kohr-Ah -1.5
Chenjesu -1
Orz -2
Yehat -0.5
Utwig -1.5
Mycon +2
Pkunk -1
Mmrnmhrm -0.5
Melnorme -0.5
Spathi -1
Druuge -0.5
Slylandro 0
Supox -0.5
Arilou -1.5
Androsynth -1
Syreen -0.5
Earthling 0
VUX +2
Ilwrath +2
Zoq-Fot-Pik -1
Shofixti 0
Umgah 0
Thraddash +1


Kohr-Ah:
Ur-Quan 0
Chmmr 0
Kohr-Ah 0
Chenjesu -1.5
Orz +1.5
Yehat +1
Utwig -1
Mycon +2
Pkunk +1.5
Mmrnmhrm +2
Melnorme -1.5
Spathi -0.5
Druuge +2
Slylandro +2
Supox +2
Arilou +1.5
Androsynth +0.5
Syreen +1
Earthling +2
VUX +1.5
Ilwrath +2
Zoq-Fot-Pik +2
Shofixti +1.5
Umgah +2
Thraddash +2


Thraddash:
Ur-Quan -1
Chmmr -2
Kohr-Ah -2
Chenjesu -2
Orz -1.5
Yehat -2
Utwig -2
Mycon -2
Pkunk -1.5
Mmrnmhrm -1.5
Melnorme -2
Spathi -2
Druuge -1
Slylandro -2
Supox -2
Arilou -2
Androsynth +1.5
Syreen -1.5
Earthling -2
VUX +1
Ilwrath 0
Zoq-Fot-Pik -1.5
Shofixti -1
Umgah -2
Thraddash 0


Utwig:
Ur-Quan +1.5
Chmmr -1
Kohr-Ah +1
Chenjesu 0
Orz -1.5
Yehat +0.5
Utwig 0
Mycon +2
Pkunk 0
Mmrnmhrm -2
Melnorme -1.5
Spathi +1.5
Druuge -1.5
Slylandro +1
Supox -2
Arilou +2
Androsynth +1.5
Syreen +2
Earthling +2
VUX +1
Ilwrath +2
Zoq-Fot-Pik +1
Shofixti +1.5
Umgah +2
Thraddash +2


Arilou:
Ur-Quan -1
Chmmr -2
Kohr-Ah -1.5
Chenjesu -1.5
Orz -1.5
Yehat -1.5
Utwig -2
Mycon -2
Pkunk 0
Mmrnmhrm -2
Melnorme -1
Spathi +1
Druuge +2
Slylandro -2
Supox -1
Arilou 0
Androsynth -1
Syreen -0.5
Earthling -0.5
VUX -1
Ilwrath 0
Zoq-Fot-Pik +1
Shofixti +1.5
Umgah +0.5
Thraddash +2


Zoq-Fot-Pik:
Ur-Quan -2
Chmmr -2
Kohr-Ah -2
Chenjesu -1.5
Orz -2
Yehat +1
Utwig -1
Mycon -2
Pkunk -1
Mmrnmhrm -1.5
Melnorme -2
Spathi -2
Druuge -0.5
Slylandro -1
Supox -1
Arilou -1
Androsynth -1
Syreen -2
Earthling +0.5
VUX +2
Ilwrath +2
Zoq-Fot-Pik 0
Shofixti +1
Umgah +2
Thraddash +1.5


Chmmr:
Ur-Quan 0
Chmmr 0
Kohr-Ah 0
Chenjesu +1
Orz -1.5
Yehat +2
Utwig +1
Mycon +1.5
Pkunk +1
Mmrnmhrm +1.5
Melnorme +1.5
Spathi +2
Druuge -1
Slylandro +2
Supox -0.5
Arilou +2
Androsynth +0.5
Syreen +2
Earthling +2
VUX +1
Ilwrath +2
Zoq-Fot-Pik +2
Shofixti +1
Umgah +2
Thraddash +2
« Last Edit: April 09, 2007, 08:03:40 pm by Valaggar » Logged
Valaggar
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Re: Cost balancing project
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2007, 06:26:45 pm »

I'm sure I confused you, but you'll understand when I finish.  Grin
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Elvish Pillager
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Re: Cost balancing project
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2007, 08:21:48 pm »

Thanks to Elvish Pillager, however, I was able to compute a better algorithm: add the how-well-it-fares-numbers for AGAINST each ship (to find out how hard it is to be killed, overall) and, so, find the X value, corresponding to how hard to be beaten is each ship.

Not only is that not what I suggested, but also, as far as I can tell, it's exactly the same thing as your original plan!

What I suggested was that, approximately, for each ship:
- you find all the ships that beat that ship
- you increase the cost of each of those ships by X divided by the total number of such ships (where X is some constant).
- thus, each ship's cost is the sum of the points other ships give it for beating them.

P.S.: the VUX and Umgah numbers against each other are inconsistent.
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Valaggar
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Re: Cost balancing project
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2007, 08:43:07 pm »

I said that nobody will understand my explanation! No, what I said is this:
(rather than -2,-1.5,-1,-0.5,0,0.5,1,1.5,2 I use 0, 0.25, 0.5, 0.75, 1, 1.(3), 2, 4, Cool
EXAMPLE:
A:
A 1
B 2
C 0.5

B:
A 0.5
B 1
C 0.75

C:
A 2
B 1.(3)
C 1

Then:
X(A)=1+2+0.5=3.5
X(B)=0.5+1+0.75=2.25
X(C)=2+1.(3)+1=4.(3)

Then:
Cost(A)=(1*3.5)+(2*2.25)+(0.5*4.(3))=10.15
Cost(B)=etc.
Cost(C)=etc.

About VUX-Umgah inconsistency - fixed (set to VUX b Umgah = +1.5)
« Last Edit: April 09, 2007, 07:56:16 am by Valaggar » Logged
Koowluh
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Re: Cost balancing project
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2007, 10:05:43 pm »

After reading all this, any regret about dropping math at high school is gone. Not that I had any, but this just confirms it.

Anyhow, what does this mean for all us simple folk? Does it mean that some ships are harder or impossible to beat with any others? If so, you just came up with an incredible elaborate way of telling that?

Did you take into account player versus player or is this based on the AI? Just because you can beat the Mycon with an Arilou blindfolded and with 2 fingers in your nose at awesome AI, does not mean a player controlled Mycon can still put up a fight.

Sorry if I sound all dumb and all, but all these numbers and formulae doohickeys really do not matter to me when I play an action game. If I can make the suggestion anyhow, you might want to put all your accumulated data into a tabular format?
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Cedric6014
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Re: Cost balancing project
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2007, 11:58:23 pm »

I have no idea either - I did geography instead. Anyway, presumably Step 2 is to somehow convert that data into a list of ships with brand new values. I'm not going to pick holes in Valagger's efforts until that is finished. Good luck to you!
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Re: Cost balancing project
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2007, 06:54:02 am »

After reading all this, any regret about dropping math at high school is gone. Not that I had any, but this just confirms it.

Anyhow, what does this mean for all us simple folk? Does it mean that some ships are harder or impossible to beat with any others? If so, you just came up with an incredible elaborate way of telling that?

Did you take into account player versus player or is this based on the AI? Just because you can beat the Mycon with an Arilou blindfolded and with 2 fingers in your nose at awesome AI, does not mean a player controlled Mycon can still put up a fight.

Sorry if I sound all dumb and all, but all these numbers and formulae doohickeys really do not matter to me when I play an action game. If I can make the suggestion anyhow, you might want to put all your accumulated data into a tabular format?

You aren't dumb for not seeing anything in Valaggar's madness. If I were to test anything, I would do it by pitting Angus and Squisher against each other in every matchup. Why those two? Because they're very good and very close in skill level as far as I remember. If not those two, you need to find other similarly matched veterans to do the tests. He isn't doing this so his results will be wrong and the numbers he lists will be meaningless.
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Re: Cost balancing project
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2007, 07:05:09 am »

Imagine being tasked with the Spathi and Thraddash matchups - i nominate someone who isn't me
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Re: Cost balancing project
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2007, 07:53:17 am »

1. I said myself I'm mad (moreover, I like being named so! What a pervert I am...)
2. It's right, some values are wrong.
3. To test all 300 combinations with just two players... I don't think they'd accept.


Quote from: Cedric6014
I have no idea either - I did geography instead. Anyway, presumably Step 2 is to somehow convert that data into a list of ships with brand new values. I'm not going to pick holes in Valagger's efforts until that is finished. Good luck to you!
Thank you.  Smiley

Quote from: Koowluh
Anyhow, what does this mean for all us simple folk? Does it mean that some ships are harder or impossible to beat with any others? If so, you just came up with an incredible elaborate way of telling that?
It's an exact, precise way of telling just how good each ship is, overall. It's a method to make ship choosing based on a maximum cost balanced. Cedric will appreciate this.

Quote from: Elvish Pillager
Not only is that not what I suggested, but also, as far as I can tell, it's exactly the same thing as your original plan!

What I suggested was that, approximately, for each ship:
- you find all the ships that beat that ship
- you increase the cost of each of those ships by X divided by the total number of such ships (where X is some constant).
- thus, each ship's cost is the sum of the points other ships give it for beating them.
Ah... oops. Not the h-w-it-fares values AGAINST, not, just like the old values, only that I use 0, 0.25 etc.
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Re: Cost balancing project
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2007, 08:00:19 am »

Numbers are nice and pretty until your ship is a pile of slag!!!

But far be it from me to question your point balancing system, frankly I think the current set up is fine.
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Re: Cost balancing project
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2007, 08:16:28 am »

Nobody said that everybody must feel a need for cost balancing.
Nobody said that ANYBODY must feel it.
(anybody except me)
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Cedric6014
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Re: Cost balancing project
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2007, 08:36:52 am »


But far be it from me to question your point balancing system, frankly I think the current set up is fine.

The current system is okay, but could be better. Why should we be content with mediocrity? some ships are over valued (Umgah, Uq-Quan) and others are under valued (Androsynth, Utwig).  Your ur-quan is more likely to become a pile of slag than my kohr-ah
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Re: Cost balancing project
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2007, 08:43:13 am »

Thraddash is overvalued too... argh!

Undervalued may be the Slylandro too, but you need Awesome AI-like reflexes.
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Re: Cost balancing project
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2007, 01:59:56 pm »

Seeing the 200+ lines of numbers Valaggar has kindly prepared for us it would seem I'm quite a bit too late to post this, but still, IMHO the Ur-Quan and Chmmr ships shouldn't have their point values changed, because the fact the three better ships have the same value has a nice *flavor* interest I think shouldn't be gone.

*Proposal*
Ur-Quan: change blaster damage to 8 (so it can destroy small ships in one shot), proportional battery cost increase.
Kohr-Ah: reduce blade damage to 3, possibly increase FRIED from 2 (IIRC) to 3 to compensate.
Chmmr: slightly reduce laser damage.
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Re: Cost balancing project
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2007, 02:14:19 pm »

Quote from: Vela
Seeing the 200+ lines of numbers Valaggar has kindly prepared for us
They're not even half of the entire work to be done. In fact, I've done a bit more since then, there are only 9 ships remaining. I'll upload them shortly - I've switched to Excel, it's simpler than Notepad.

Quote from: Vela
*Proposal*
Well, my mod aims to balance the prices so that vanilla UQM is more balanced. But such a change as you propose would deviate from the original, so I don't think that anybody else would like it.
Anyway, if you want just that, you can simply change the values in the source code - I can do it for you if you haven't already installed the needed software.

May I beg you all to make some more criticism over the match-up values I've snatched yet?
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