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Poll
Question: Do you feel like the cost values of ships must be re-calculated?
Definitely!
Most, yes.
Some, yes.
Too few.
No way!

Author Topic: Cost balancing project  (Read 19572 times)
Vela
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Re: Cost balancing project
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2007, 02:51:07 pm »

Quote
...such a change as you propose would deviate from the original, so I don't think that anybody else would like it.
Good point.

Quote
...you can simply change the values in the source code - I can do it for you if you haven't already installed the needed software.
Nah, that was just a random idea after all. Thanks for the offer though.

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May I beg you all to make some more criticism over the match-up values I've snatched yet?
The only way I can think of for testing those is to have human players play against each other with all the combinations... and, in all honesty, I think you're going to have to pay them for that.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2007, 02:53:35 pm by Vela » Logged
Valaggar
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Re: Cost balancing project
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2007, 02:58:18 pm »

No, I thought that veteran players can see at a glance some match-ups, and they can simply test one ship each or something.
I mean, IF they want.
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Draxas
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Re: Cost balancing project
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2007, 07:47:38 pm »

I think, despite the occasional grumblings to the contrary, most people are fine with the way the ships are currently valued. Otherwise, this would have been done in earnest long ago.

Even if people are NOT fine with the current values, I don't think this is helping any. Your numbers are fairly consistently nonsensical.
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Valaggar
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Re: Cost balancing project
« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2007, 08:01:46 pm »

Maybe nobody wanted to take the burden upon himself...
And why are my numbers nonsensical? I am very sure about most match-ups. Specify.

Anyway, I'll pollify this thread...  Grin
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Valaggar
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Re: Cost balancing project
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2007, 09:49:59 pm »

The current state of my project:
http://www.savefile.com/files/623661
(link to an Excel sheet with the match-up values)
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Elvish Pillager
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Re: Cost balancing project
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2007, 10:14:55 pm »

May I beg you all to make some more criticism over the match-up values I've snatched yet?

They're horrible and stupid.

...wait, you mean CONSTRUCTIVE criticism? Tongue
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Re: Cost balancing project
« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2007, 11:19:50 pm »

To make a judgement about the relative value of all ships, on your own, you need to be extremely proficient in all of the ships.
I'll take your values seriously when you can consistently beat Tiberian.

That said, maybe one day I'll add statistics gathering to UQM, so it can be seen objectively how much damage each type of ship does on average to each other type of ship. You could make different valuations for different groups of players depending on the data gathered (top players in tournaments, or newbies among eachother, for instance).

That said, to determine the true value of ships, you'd also need to take into account support ships. For instance, a ship capable of blowing up an Avatar satellite (like a Scout) can make the Avatar acessible for ships which otherwise wouldn't stand a chance. Or an intruder might manage to slow down a ship while being destroyed itself. Or a Broodhome which gets destroyed after draining the energy of a Jugger.
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Re: Cost balancing project
« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2007, 09:23:08 am »

Yes! Statistics gathering must be the top priority for UQM 0.7.0!!! A higher priority even than a multiplayer lobby or anything else.
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Valaggar
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Re: Cost balancing project
« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2007, 12:41:42 pm »

Now, just as a jokey thingy, here's my completed sheet:
http://www.savefile.com/files/625856
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Koowluh
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Re: Cost balancing project
« Reply #24 on: April 10, 2007, 03:00:55 pm »

Your sheet makes more sense now, but as above posters mentioned, it's still based on personal thoughts and formulaes. Some people are just better with specific ships than others, and you should find fairly consistent players who can play all match ups before you can make educated guesses on how to change point values.

Furthermore, except for the singular exception, I find the current point values sufficient as they are.

I would only change point values by the way and I strongly disagree with Vela's suggestion to change anything gameplay wise. If it's only the points in melee, I'm cool, but change the properties of a ship to accomodate point value, nope.
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Cedric6014
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Re: Cost balancing project
« Reply #25 on: April 10, 2007, 10:01:46 pm »

I think that the core team would say that any change of this nature, point values included, would be contrary to the purpose of UQM, and they'd be right. What is downloaded from Sourceforge should be as close as possible to what was on the 4 5.25 inch floppies I unpacked back in 1993.

I think perhaps, in the future, when we are racing around in jetpacks, that if there is ever a developed lobby/competiton system, that playing in it might require a mod to be be downloaded that incorporates slight value adjustments. I still personally believe that online Melee could have a broad appeal and raise awareness for  sequel. For the purposes of competition the values should be as correct as possible.

By the way Valagger, from a cursory glance of your spread sheet it looked ike you had Mycon beating Arilou.
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Re: Cost balancing project
« Reply #26 on: April 10, 2007, 10:20:18 pm »

The statistics issue along with the question of what/who the win/loss is against is going to be the overriding thing.  After all, most of what beats what is opinion, and we know there's quite a difference of opinion based on skill level of the person involved, whether they've learned that the AI is trash (awesome or *gasp* they're playing down) or not, whether it's a fluke victory or not (70% of my losses against the AI seem to be that way anymore - either involving an asteroid or a planet) and I'm sure many factors I haven't even thought about.  I don't know exactly what the numbers in the spreadsheet even mean for most part, but do know you need a much more representative sample before you consider acting on anything of this sort.
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Valaggar
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Re: Cost balancing project
« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2007, 09:43:19 am »

Quote from: Cedric6014
By the way Valaggar, from a cursory glance of your spread sheet it looked ike you had Mycon beating Arilou.
Keep your plasmoids inside the Podship and try killing the Arilou when he nears. Well, it's not really +2 for Mycon, maybe -1: sometimes the Mycon may hit.

Anyway, we'd need two Tiberians to really get the numbers right - someone so proficient in all of the ships, that he's no longer better at one ship than another.
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Valaggar
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Re: Cost balancing project
« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2007, 02:38:23 pm »

Just for fun, here are my aberrant "balanced" costs using the Elvish Pillager-Valaggar method:
Ur-Quan......25
Chmmr........50
Kohr-Ah......50
Chenjesu.....35
Orz..........42
Yehat........20
Utwig........36
Mycon........17
Pkunk........16
Mmrnmhrm.....47
Melnorme.....37
Spathi.......20
Druuge.......28
Slylandro....24
Supox........28
Arilou.......13
Androsynth...35
Syreen.......41
Earthling....7
VUX..........11
Ilwrath......6
Zoq-Fot-Pik..10
Shofixti.....15
Umgah........3
Thraddash....2
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Valaggar
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Re: Cost balancing project
« Reply #29 on: April 11, 2007, 06:20:55 pm »

Mod executable:
http://www.savefile.com/files/629984
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