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News: Celebrating 30 years of Star Control 2 - The Ur-Quan Masters

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Poll
Question: Do you feel like the cost values of ships must be re-calculated?
Definitely!
Most, yes.
Some, yes.
Too few.
No way!

Author Topic: Cost balancing project  (Read 21722 times)
Tiberian
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Re: Cost balancing project
« Reply #45 on: April 12, 2007, 09:09:32 pm »

All the "tests" have been done already past these 15 years. Melee experts (me and the others on #uqm-arena) don't have to play single matches to determine which ship is better than the other.

Also, "cost balancing" is not a good thing for tournaments, since the ship values are already balanced. Tweaking it would most likely result in a worse outcome.

Someone could now call out "but hey, ship A clearly has a too low value and ship B has too high value!" That is true, there are ships like A and B, but no matter what the values are, there will always be lots of players who feel the values are not correct. Since we, the "experts at #uqm-arena", and the developer team don't see a problem, I'm pretty sure there will be no changes.
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Cedric6014
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Re: Cost balancing project
« Reply #46 on: April 12, 2007, 11:00:56 pm »

When PR3 and FF made SC, they did not have the time and resources to play a bazillion melee games to properly test the values they attributed to the ships. Whilst I think what they did was pretty spot on, it's subsequently evident by my experiences in PvP that some ships ARE overvalued and some ARE undervalued. And most good players, Tiberian included, would agree on which ships these are. The issue is to what degree are they over or underrated. Its not by much but it is enough to ensure that every player (if they want to win) picks an androsynth and no player picks an ilwrath. Despite my normal socialst tendencies, I say we let the market decide. Would people pick an ur-quan if we dropped it a couple of points?

I think online melee would be enhanced considerably if the full array of ships were used. I get sick of constantly battling kohr-ahs, orz and earthlings. Bring on the umgahs and chenjesus! Also, for some reason all the sucky ships are red, green or purple.

Anyway, like a said before, UQM shoudn't be changed as such but perhaps a mod could be used for competitive situations.
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meep-eep
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Re: Cost balancing project
« Reply #47 on: April 12, 2007, 11:51:30 pm »

If you want to play the underused ships some more, I'd suggest letting each player build the opponent's team.
The number of ships of a type should be limited, and the agreed ship cost would be a lower bound, instead of an upper bound.
Maybe you'd even want to make it a tournament. Cheesy
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Re: Cost balancing project
« Reply #48 on: April 13, 2007, 04:08:10 am »

Hey that's a pretty fun idea.
Don't know if it would fly for competition purposes though
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Re: Cost balancing project
« Reply #49 on: April 13, 2007, 08:36:09 am »

Of course not. Everybody would choose the overvalued ships for the opponent etc. Then, the underused ships will become the overused ships. No change.

Quote from: Cedric6014
When PR3 and FF made SC, they did not have the time and resources to play a bazillion melee games to properly test the values they attributed to the ships. Whilst I think what they did was pretty spot on, it's subsequently evident by my experiences in PvP that some ships ARE overvalued and some ARE undervalued. And most good players, Tiberian included, would agree on which ships these are. The issue is to what degree are they over or underrated.
Very well said. That's why we need a complete rewrite to fix those values. We'll then decide what to do with the other values.

Quote from: Cedric6014
Also, for some reason all the sucky ships are red, green or purple.
Right on the spot. And they're my favourite colours... *sigh*
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Re: Cost balancing project
« Reply #50 on: April 13, 2007, 09:55:28 am »

Workbook updated:
http://www.savefile.com/files/635012
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meep-eep
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Re: Cost balancing project
« Reply #51 on: April 13, 2007, 03:52:16 pm »

Of course not. Everybody would choose the overvalued ships for the opponent etc. Then, the underused ships will become the overused ships. No change.
How is "underused ships becoming the overused ships" no change?
And you'd obviously use this play method in addition to the traditional gameplay. Noone is expecting you to stop playing the game the traditional way.
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Re: Cost balancing project
« Reply #52 on: April 13, 2007, 05:00:24 pm »

Well meep eep brings up an interesting idea.  Consider the following:

Perhaps we have been looking at the cost ballencing from an incorrect light.  What if instead of looking at which ship beats which, we look strictly at ship selection.  As each player has their own views and playing styles of ships, in the end they end up choosing ships which they feel are undervalued or ships which they are more proficient in.  If it were possible to do statistical analysis on which ships are chosen, and simply re-ballence them due to supply and demand, it could produce something interesting.  You would not need to take into account variables such as Avatar zap sats, pkunk respawning or VUX limpeting.  Players would make their own analysis of this based on their ship selection. 

Imagine a mod which lowers the cost of the 3 least used ships by 1 each month, and increases the cost of the 3 most used ships by 1 each month.
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Re: Cost balancing project
« Reply #53 on: April 13, 2007, 05:03:19 pm »

Quote from: meep-eep
How is "underused ships becoming the overused ships" no change?
Because what today is underused will then be overused. And what today is overused will then be underused. Of course, it IS something good, but it's still not the best.
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AngusThermopyle
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Re: Cost balancing project
« Reply #54 on: April 13, 2007, 05:31:17 pm »

If you want to play the underused ships some more, I'd suggest letting each player build the opponent's team.
The number of ships of a type should be limited, and the agreed ship cost would be a lower bound, instead of an upper bound.
Maybe you'd even want to make it a tournament. Cheesy

I’ve played with these rules several times. It can be quite fun for a match or two, but the teams always seem to boil down to the Rejects of the Hierarchy + Zoq-Fot & Supox and whatever else is deemed an easy kill.

An interesting novelty for sure, but I wouldn’t want it for tournament play.
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Cedric6014
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Re: Cost balancing project
« Reply #55 on: April 13, 2007, 10:36:32 pm »

Well meep eep brings up an interesting idea.  Consider the following:

Perhaps we have been looking at the cost ballencing from an incorrect light.  What if instead of looking at which ship beats which, we look strictly at ship selection.  As each player has their own views and playing styles of ships, in the end they end up choosing ships which they feel are undervalued or ships which they are more proficient in.  If it were possible to do statistical analysis on which ships are chosen, and simply re-ballence them due to supply and demand, it could produce something interesting.  You would not need to take into account variables such as Avatar zap sats, pkunk respawning or VUX limpeting.  Players would make their own analysis of this based on their ship selection. 

Imagine a mod which lowers the cost of the 3 least used ships by 1 each month, and increases the cost of the 3 most used ships by 1 each month.

Yes this is the kind of thing I was getting it with 'letting the free market decide'. The terms 'undervalued' and 'overvalued' are very subjective - as evidenced by this heated debate. In my view, the aim of this discourse is to result in a situation where each ship is selected about is often as every other ship. I dont even think a statistical analysis is necessary. I think the better players have a fair idea of what adjustments to make.

So I think the best way forward is to make a mod with value adjustments and just experiment with it for a while in PvP. It will take a while for it to actually occir to players that they can pick a mycon over a jugger. Actually, I think it will take a loooong time for the magic of market forces to make their impact, now i come to think of it.
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Re: Cost balancing project
« Reply #56 on: April 14, 2007, 03:58:35 am »

Hmm...I like the idea of making a mod to test the adjusted prices, and then encourage people to play it. I'd try it.
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Re: Cost balancing project
« Reply #57 on: April 14, 2007, 12:15:28 pm »

Quote from: AngusThermopyle
I’ve played with these rules several times. It can be quite fun for a match or two, but the teams always seem to boil down to the Rejects of the Hierarchy + Zoq-Fot & Supox and whatever else is deemed an easy kill.

An interesting novelty for sure, but I wouldn’t want it for tournament play.
Thank you for supporting our cause, Angus!

Quote from: Jumping *Peppers*
Hmm...I like the idea of making a mod to test the adjusted prices, and then encourage people to play it. I'd try it.
Well, it seems that my method, while good, can't be implemented so easily due to the lack of veteran players support (save for Angus). We'll try, however, to implement it.
Unfortunately, we can't get prices that balanced by simply stretching them, as the earlier part of the Best value ships Thread shows.

I must extend once again the call for expert help on my workbook (or you can make one from scratch, if you want).
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Re: Cost balancing project
« Reply #58 on: April 14, 2007, 12:46:25 pm »

OK, let's see what's wrong with the Syreen (it's got a way too high value in my mod, you know):
Syreen
Ur-Quan -1.5
Chmmr -2
Kohr-Ah -1
Chenjesu -2
Orz 2 ? 0
Yehat 1.5 ?
Utwig -2
Mycon 2
Pkunk 1.5
Mmrnmhrm 1.5
Melnorme -2
Spathi 2
Druuge -0.5
Slylandro -1
Supox 2
Arilou 0.5
Androsynth 1
Syreen 0
Earthling -0.5
VUX 2
Ilwrath 2
Zoq-Fot-Pik 2
Shofixti 0.5
Umgah 2
Thraddash 1.5

The values marked with "?" are unsure; others may be unsure too, but I don't see them right now.
The proposed new value is after the "?", with yellow.
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Elvish Pillager
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Re: Cost balancing project
« Reply #59 on: April 14, 2007, 01:57:34 pm »

On the high end, these values also look suspicious:

Mycon 2
Pkunk 1.5
Supox 2
Androsynth 1
Ilwrath 2
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