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Author Topic: Star control star gravity?  (Read 6902 times)
Valaggar
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Re: Star control star gravity?
« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2007, 08:40:47 pm »

What do you want to say?
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Death 999
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Re: Star control star gravity?
« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2007, 08:56:09 pm »

Even if the ships start in TrueSpace, doesn't mean they aren't using some Hyperspace-related technology to do their maneuvering in combat.

If the Leyland gravity whip is a combat maneuver, then gravity is much more important to SC ships than we would expect. This is a way to achieve that.
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Valaggar
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Re: Star control star gravity?
« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2007, 09:02:52 pm »

It just seems too... made up, for me.

After all, only the Arilou use HyperSpace warps in combat.
The "warping in" animation in the beginning of ANY combat, including TS to TS, is just a coding simplification.
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Death 999
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Re: Star control star gravity?
« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2007, 04:55:49 pm »

The Arilou aren't using HS warps, they're using QS.

Look. We have a ship, the flagship, which can cross the solar system (which I take to be 7/6 the orbital diameter of Neptune) two and a half times per day, as long as it wants, without refueling.
That is 35 AU * 8 minutes/ AU *2.5 / day = 700 minutes/day ~= 0.5 c

To do this, there must be relativity violations.

The most natural source for these relativity violations would be HS-related tech.
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Valaggar
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Re: Star control star gravity?
« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2007, 05:04:14 pm »

Quote from: Death 999
The Arilou aren't using HS warps, they're using QS.
The SC1 DataBank says that they're using HS warps, see here.

Quote from: Death 999
Look. We have a ship, the flagship, which can cross the solar system (which I take to be 7/6 the orbital diameter of Neptune) two and a half times per day, as long as it wants, without refueling.
That is 35 AU * 8 minutes/ AU *2.5 / day = 700 minutes/day ~= 0.5 c
Gameplay simplification. Just like the fact that planets aren't moving, aren't at scale, there aren't all satellites, there is no Asteroid Belt, there are no nebulas and the list could go on forever.
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Death 999
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Re: Star control star gravity?
« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2007, 06:16:34 pm »

That graphic was created by SC1-era folk. In-universe explanation, they didn't understand QuasiSpace, assumed it was just another HS trick. Hayes hadn't heard about it, instead referring to an unspecified way of getting around really quickly.

--------

Quote from: Talana
The standard Mycon tactic would have been to speed out of orbit using a gravity whip maneuver

This is a direct reference in conversation. It cannot be dismissed as game mechanics. As I said earlier. A gravity whip, in order to be 'speeding out of orbit',  or indeed to even work in that situation, would have to be many orders of magnitude more powerful than permitted by TrueSpace physics, and not be like normal gravity.

Additional supporting quotes:
Quote from: The Orz
Many *gravity centers* in *heavy space* make good *party places*.
Quote from: The ZFP, referring to the UQ factions
they favor combat near strong gravity wells.

With pure TrueSpace physics, there would be no good reason for either of these statements to be the case.
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Valaggar
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Re: Star control star gravity?
« Reply #21 on: April 18, 2007, 07:29:37 pm »

Quote from: Death 999
That graphic was created by SC1-era folk. In-universe explanation, they didn't understand QuasiSpace, assumed it was just another HS trick. Hayes hadn't heard about it, instead referring to an unspecified way of getting around really quickly.
This is getting even more far-fetched with each passing post.

Quote from: Death 999
This is a direct reference in conversation. It cannot be dismissed as game mechanics. As I said earlier. A gravity whip, in order to be 'speeding out of orbit',  or indeed to even work in that situation, would have to be many orders of magnitude more powerful than permitted by TrueSpace physics, and not be like normal gravity.
Hmm... who said that Star Control TrueSpace physics should be the same to our physics? After all, it's a game.
It'd be sad and *frumple* to really have one-by-one battles, no fleet battles (and don't forget that multi-ship fleet battles ARE referenced, too, though I can't find where right now).

"Many *gravity centers* in *heavy space* make good *party places*." - what exactly IS a party, anyway? It's not combat, that's for sure. Dismissed.

"they favor combat near strong gravity wells" - as I replied to the Talana quote.
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Draxas
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Re: Star control star gravity?
« Reply #22 on: April 18, 2007, 07:58:16 pm »

Quote from: Death 999
That graphic was created by SC1-era folk. In-universe explanation, they didn't understand QuasiSpace, assumed it was just another HS trick. Hayes hadn't heard about it, instead referring to an unspecified way of getting around really quickly.
This is getting even more far-fetched with each passing post.

Just one problem. D999 makes an absolutely true statement. There was no concept of Quasispace in the days of SC1 (possibly not even an in-universe concept of Hyperspace, either, though I'm not 100% sure about that). Quasispace came about in SC2, quite possibly to provide convenient explanations for all the weird stuff the Arilou can do.

Quote
Hmm... who said that Star Control TrueSpace physics should be the same to our physics? After all, it's a game.
It'd be sad and *frumple* to really have one-by-one battles, no fleet battles (and don't forget that multi-ship fleet battles ARE referenced, too, though I can't find where right now).

First you try to justify things using real physics, now you dismiss real physics entirely. Make up your mind.

Quote
"Many *gravity centers* in *heavy space* make good *party places*." - what exactly IS a party, anyway? It's not combat, that's for sure. Dismissed.

*Party places* are the best spots for *dancing.*
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Valaggar
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Re: Star control star gravity?
« Reply #23 on: April 18, 2007, 08:03:46 pm »

*Party* is something Orz does with his friends as well as enemies, as evidenced by this quotes:

So much *juicy*! Let's have *party time* sooner.

If you are *sick* you should have a *party*.
We can come and *play* at your *house*.


This is my *house.* Did you come to *play*?.
Do not be sad if you are *other*. We can still have a *party*.
There are never enough *campers*.


Even more *pleasant combinations*. I am *successful* the most.
Perhaps after the biggest *party* you will understanding the Orz
and I can showing you other *levels*.
There are so many, but you only *play* on this one.
One is not enough.
We are *friends* now. Never be afraid to *open* enough and *spread the wax*.


Quote from: Draxas
First you try to justify things using real physics, now you dismiss real physics entirely. Make up your mind.
In fact, I didn't try to justify things using real physics. Of course, I had to depart more and more from real physics.
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Valaggar
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Re: Star control star gravity?
« Reply #24 on: April 18, 2007, 08:17:58 pm »

Ah, and I forgot to say - some races are advantages if they disable their "halfway-HyperSpace" technology during the fight (notably Ur-Quan, Kohr-Ah, Chmmr, Androsynth, Chenjesu), and they don't (in your interpretation). And you can't say that this is because their opponents prevent them from doing so, since 4/5 of these races have more advanced tech, especially the Ur-Quan and the Chmmr.
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Death 999
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Re: Star control star gravity?
« Reply #25 on: April 21, 2007, 05:39:27 am »

How do you figure on those? I could kind of get it on the Androsynth - they can coast coming out of a blazer - but I really doubt that any ship which basically renders itself immobile is going to derive an advantage from this.

All we need is for the time it takes to get in and out of this to be nontrivially long, and it is tactically useless.

Quote from: Valaggar
t'd be sad and *frumple* to really have one-by-one battles, no fleet battles (and don't forget that multi-ship fleet battles ARE referenced, too, though I can't find where right now).

Fortunately for us, fleet battles are distinctly referenced in-game. As I have referred to in this very thread. It is not game mechanics alone I am considering, it is that PLUS dialog reference which I am considering as definitive here. If people talk about it as if it were real, it's real.

And gravity whips being tactically relevant is referenced in-game, by Talana, as pointed out earlier.

Your 'response' to the Talana quote is absurd - physics is different enough to make what she said make sense with no technology, just so you can avoid having a technology that is very well in line with what we know is available?
Do keep in mind that the Emergency HS escape system can be used in-system, and does not escape to outside the system.

Quote from: Valaggar
Gameplay simplification. Just like the fact that planets aren't moving, aren't at scale, there aren't all satellites, there is no Asteroid Belt, there are no nebulas and the list could go on forever.

Note that the semi-HS instantly accounts for planets not being at scale. Lack of asteroid belt and nebulas is pretty simple considering that both of those are too sparse to be vaguely relevant (a nebula's average pressure is higher vacuum than we can create on Earth)

And which other gameplay simplications are referenced in dialog? Like if Hayes said that Jupiter had four moons, we'd have to accept that the other 15 or so had been destroyed somehow.
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Valaggar
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Re: Star control star gravity?
« Reply #26 on: April 21, 2007, 08:38:54 am »

Alright, I understand. I'll give an answer to encompass everything:

In fact, since the game mechanics alone wouldn't be enough to justify the semi-HS tech (and Emergency escape systems could simply be an Arilouish HS warp that needs much fuel and time since we don't have the technology; about semi-HS: don't forget that ships meeting in HS are "sucked back to TS", not to semi-HS, in "Deep Space" -- and then there's that planet IN DEEP SPACE too, just like we didn't have enough proof for the abstractness of melee), you are referring to the dialogue.

OK, the dialogue would offer enough proof; but now, really, it may simply be a tentative of the creators to incorporate Melee in the full game, to give the battles a more "professional" look, so maybe that dialogue shouldn't be taken too seriously (just like in tutorials, as I said a few posts back).
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Elvish Pillager
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Re: Star control star gravity?
« Reply #27 on: April 21, 2007, 05:22:32 pm »

Fortunately for us, fleet battles are distinctly referenced in-game. As I have referred to in this very thread. It is not game mechanics alone I am considering, it is that PLUS dialog reference which I am considering as definitive here. If people talk about it as if it were real, it's real.

What about when what's said in-game contradicts what happens in melee?

For example, the Chenjesu are supposed to be psy-immune, but the Syreen special works on them; I don't know if the Flagship can ever fight against a Syreen Penetrator, but if it could, the Taalo shield wouldn't help against them either.

I'd say dialogue wins.
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Valaggar
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Re: Star control star gravity?
« Reply #28 on: April 21, 2007, 08:16:28 pm »

Alright, I'll accept the existence of the halfway-HS drive. But this simply means that the ships go REALLY fast - this doesn't make small planets necessary (since large planets would serve as gravity wells just as well at those speeds - it would be like using a small planet with Super Melee speeds), nor the strange asteroids (which are also destroyed in one hit!), neither screen wrapping (ESPECIALLY! since then how would you be able to MOVE by using that drive?! and Spathi wouldn't use it).

So it's simply a very fast way of traveling - I mean, it's the other things that made me oppose the theory, albeit I liked the halfway-HS idea, not the fast speeds (in fact, those are interesting).

Another bit of info - probably interplanetary travel uses halfway-HS and battles use quarter-HS, since there's the "warping in" animation and the Emergency Warp drive.


Though I somehow doubt that FF/PR3 wanted it to be halfway-HS -- after all, it's not dark red. And no canon source refers to this tech. And gravity whips can be explained by FF/PR3 ignorance in physics. And then there's the lack of time passage while orbiting a planet, on which you can't use not even quarter-HS since you're too close to a strong gravity well - so the enemy ships could reach you meanwhile.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2007, 08:39:37 pm by Valaggar » Logged
Valaggar
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Re: Star control star gravity?
« Reply #29 on: April 23, 2007, 05:51:43 pm »

Another argument against "halfway-HS" - Emergency Warp Units are harder to use near strong gravity wells -> that's why the Ur-Quan prefer battle near strong gravity wells, so as the prey doesn't escape them.

The Talana quote is explained simply: they sped up using a powered gravitational slingshot, what's wrong with this?
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