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Author Topic: Star control star gravity?  (Read 6558 times)
Sargon
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Star control star gravity?
« on: April 15, 2007, 02:15:25 pm »

I was thinking, it doesnt make any sense that a space ship will acumulate speed from flying by the star. Because it has a radial force and it would only change the direction of the ships velocity, not its length.
So how does the star physics work in star control?
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Re: Star control star gravity?
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2007, 03:18:42 pm »

I was thinking, it doesnt make any sense that a space ship will acumulate speed from flying by the star. Because it has a radial force and it would only change the direction of the ships velocity, not its length.
So how does the star physics work in star control?
First of all, I assume you mean planets instead of stars (as planets are the only objects in combat with gravity). In any case, gravitational slingshots are a well-established technique in space travel.

Star Control uses a horribly mutated version of Newtonian physics for combat. First of all, all speeds are in the frame of reference of the planet and the speed of the firing ship is ignored when projectiles as launched from it (allowing e.g. Eluders and Podships to shoot themselves if they are moving too fast). A related oddity is that ships have a maximum speed and thrust does not increase speed beyond this limit.

This ship-specific maximum speed limit is replaced by a (very high) global maximum speed whenever the ship is under the influence of a planet (i.e. the gravitiational force, which is roughly an inverse-square force as it should be, is high enough); in other words, when a ship is close enough to a planet, it no longer has maximum speed limits on thrust.

See src/sc2code/ship.c and src/sc2code/gravity.c for details.
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Valaggar
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Re: Star control star gravity?
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2007, 03:46:35 pm »

You know, in the real world, gravitational slingshots can't be used in dogfights, and are actually used for saving fuel. And planets are bigger. Also asteroids. And asteroids have different sizes and don't wander all over the solar system. And collisions actually DEAL damage. And ships don't have maximum speeds - I mean that their maximum speed is the speed of light, which is a bit too fast to take into account right now. And so on. (And fleet battles are fought with fleets, not ships launched into combat one after another)
That's why about everybody considers Super Melee to be an abstract-y representation of a fleet battle.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2007, 03:50:28 pm by Valaggar » Logged
Sargon
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Re: Star control star gravity?
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2007, 06:55:38 pm »

I will take a look at the source code.
But still, in the wikipedia link you have given me, when the point of reference is that so the planet is standing still, then the velocity of the space craft relative to the planet do not increase.
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Koowluh
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Re: Star control star gravity?
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2007, 07:34:04 pm »

You know, in the real world...

<troll>

Huh

We are still peddling on flawd rocketships that kill all the crew instantly when there's a piece of insulation loose. Unless you happen to have some state of the art spaceship in your backyard  ?

I take it you mean in the real world, it is theorised that... ?

</troll>
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Re: Star control star gravity?
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2007, 07:53:47 pm »

Nope, no matter what we HAVE, those are the physics laws. It's PROVEN. It's what happens to any object. Spaceships are not magical.
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Jumping *Peppers*
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Re: Star control star gravity?
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2007, 08:08:22 pm »

That's why about everybody considers Super Melee to be an abstract-y representation of a fleet battle.
Wha? It's a video game, and all I think it "represents" is two ships dogfighting around an unrealisticly small planet. Tongue If you're going to try to make sense of Star Control, how do you explain the planet lander sequences, the fact your ship explodes when all the crew are killed, etc?

Seriously, like all video games, it's better if you don't think about it too hard. Tongue
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Re: Star control star gravity?
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2007, 08:45:41 pm »

Quote from: Jumping *Peppers*
how do you explain the planet lander sequences, the fact your ship explodes when all the crew are killed, etc?
Suspension of disbelief helps in many cases at such... oddities in Star Control, but here we can explain this:
Super Melee - abstract (this means that the crew thing is abstract too, as is the transfer)
Planet lander - abstract
Need to mine many planets for resources - abstract

You see, everything can be explained in this manner. And it works quite well. Of course, it's better not to trouble our little minds with solving the unsolvable - but it's funnier to play a game you deem realistic, which can be accomplished in two ways:
1)Give makeshift explanations (=it's abstract)
2)Suspension of disbelief
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Tiberian
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Re: Star control star gravity?
« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2007, 09:28:39 pm »

The technology of aliens that can travel between stars might be beyond our scope of comprehension, like the hyper space map the Chenjesu made. Humans can never understand how the relative distances of the stars can be put in a 2D map, but it just works, so we live by it.
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Re: Star control star gravity?
« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2007, 09:59:10 pm »

But still, in the wikipedia link you have given me, when the point of reference is that so the planet is standing still, then the velocity of the space craft relative to the planet do not increase.
True, but in the context they're used that's not the point; in the frames of reference we care about (the Sun, Earth, the target planetoid), we get a useful change. In any case, SC physics and real life are different enough to make comparisons iffy at best.
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Re: Star control star gravity?
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2007, 02:38:17 pm »

Tiberian: First of all, we don't have any indication whatsoever that HyperSpace portals are not in the same plane. Who knows, maybe what you see is what you have, there.
Secondly, advanced technology doesn't mean that: 1) they can warp space in such a degree that planets are the size of ships, and that ships exiting the arena reappear on the other edge, 2) on the other hand, they can't even crack a slave shield or, let's say, warp the annoying creatures on planets or warp space in the Storage Bay to hold more minerals and so on.

We can simply use suspension of disbelief or the abstractness explanation for such creepy things as Super Melee and landers.
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Death 999
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Re: Star control star gravity?
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2007, 06:46:25 pm »

I think you could get fairly SoD on Melee, in reference to a few things, if you let combat occur in a sort of halfway-to-hyperspace phase.

In Hyperspace, ships are roughly the size of solar systems. In this halfway space, they're just the size of continents.

In Hyperspace, ships have a maximum speed and rapidly decelerate. In this halfway space, there is a maximum speed but no rapid deceleration.

In Hyperspace, ships are so powerfully affected by gravity that they're ripped out of Hyperspace. In this halfway space, they're so powerfully affected by gravity that orbiting at an altitude of 5000 km takes around a second.


Why bother with this? Gravity whips are mentioned in conversation. If we are to admit that, then we aren't taking it from one source, and it's basically canon. In order to fit that in, we have to make some changes to the physics. Other things , like 1 on 1 battle, are not supported outside of the engine, and we should drop them.
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Valaggar
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Re: Star control star gravity?
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2007, 07:48:19 pm »

Don't forget that Melee may happen between two ships that START in TrueSpace. In that case, it should take place entirely in TrueSpace.
I'd say that the gravity whip mention in a conversation (the Orz "These are best for letting go near *heavy space* *planet bodies*") is simply like a joke, or like a convention between the player and the designer, as are many tutorials (when you hear a character say "Press Left Mouse Button").
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Valaggar
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Re: Star control star gravity?
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2007, 03:35:00 pm »

Also, it's not necessary that the Flagship, in HyperSpace, is the size of star systems. It may either be that the portals are further from the camera than the Flagship, or that the Flagship is actually the same size as usual as to star systems, but is represented bigger (again "it's abstract") to facilitate gameplay.

To the latter explanation this additional argument greatly helps:
Turning in TS doesn't use fuel, since thrusting doesn't, too (in fact you use, but too little to matter, since there's inertia).
Turning in HS doesn't use much fuel, too, since the distance your ship travels by turning is actually much smaller than represented graphically (visualize this by visualizing the Flagship the size of a pixel).
« Last Edit: April 17, 2007, 03:39:06 pm by Valaggar » Logged
Draxas
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Re: Star control star gravity?
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2007, 08:20:48 pm »

Also, it's not necessary that the Flagship, in HyperSpace, is the size of star systems. It may either be that the portals are further from the camera than the Flagship, or that the Flagship is actually the same size as usual as to star systems, but is represented bigger (again "it's abstract") to facilitate gameplay.

I believe this was supposed to be in reference to other ships in Hyperspace, not your own; those moving gravity wells are roughly the size of a gravity well generated by a star system.
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