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Question: Who are the most traumatized, the Kohr-Ah or the Kzer-Za?
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Author Topic: Who are the most traumatized, the Kohr-Ah or the Kzer-Za?  (Read 10547 times)
Valaggar
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Who are the most traumatized, the Kohr-Ah or the Kzer-Za?
« on: April 26, 2007, 03:26:09 pm »

After all, the Kohr-Ah react more violently to the Words, but does this mean that those had the most effect on them or the other way around? If the Words (and the Dnyarri slavery) struck them with such force, they would probably NOT talk about them, would they?

Not to mention that the Green were the ones who began the revolution.

Of course, there would be arguments for the Kohr-Ah as well: they were more altered than the Kzer-Za (including the removal of their solitary hunter instinct, or part of it). And they have a more radical policy (though this would be explained by their intrinsic nature, rather).
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Re: Who are the most traumatized, the Kohr-Ah or the Kzer-Za?
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2007, 04:04:06 pm »

I chose the Kohr-Ah, because they are the ones who believe that all other species are inferior, and kill everyone in the game if the Sa-Matra is not destroyed.

And near the end, when the Kzer-Za encounter you, and tell you to run from the Kohr-Ah, instead of fighting you, so they have some miniscule form of mercy.
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Valaggar
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Re: Who are the most traumatized, the Kohr-Ah or the Kzer-Za?
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2007, 05:44:03 pm »

The Kohr-Ah are simply a more violent species, having been engineered as warriors.
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Re: Who are the most traumatized, the Kohr-Ah or the Kzer-Za?
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2007, 07:34:08 pm »

Traumatized by the Dynarri experience?
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Valaggar
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Re: Who are the most traumatized, the Kohr-Ah or the Kzer-Za?
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2007, 07:47:23 pm »

By the Dnyarri, of course. The reaction to the Words is directly linked to the strength of the trauma of the Dnyarri experience.
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Re: Who are the most traumatized, the Kohr-Ah or the Kzer-Za?
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2007, 08:26:36 pm »

I chose the Kohr-Ah, because they are the ones who believe that all other species are inferior, and kill everyone in the game if the Sa-Matra is not destroyed.

I thought they viewed all other races as potential threats. I doubt they'd care much if you were simply inferior, but that potential for evolution into something dangerous dooms you.

I'd still say Kohr-Ah though, but mainly because I simply view them as less resilient. Bred to be fighters and doers, their minds might have been simpler, and therefore shattered more easily by the excruciator. The Kzer-Za, while clearly off their rocker, still seem to be able to hold together better.
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Re: Who are the most traumatized, the Kohr-Ah or the Kzer-Za?
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2007, 09:21:37 pm »

Both are equally messed up. They would have to be to determine that either doctrine would be a good way to soothe their trauma. Because when it all boils down to it, the Kzer-Za are condemning other races to death just as surely as the Kohr-Ah, just in a more indirect manner. After all, given enough time, some sort of planetary event is going to cause mass extinction, unless the imprisoned race ends up killing themselves before that. This is ignoring the impact of the planetary damage the destruction of every structure over 500 years old wreaks (considering they have no compunctions about destroying subterranean structures as well).

The reaction to The Words is a different matter entirely. The Kzer-Za seem to place a great deal of stock in the ideas of ritual and routine, as befits their nature. Hence, their take on the Doctrinal Conflict, which causes them to sever all voluntary relations with other races and focus solely on combat with the Kohr-Ah, despite the fact that they have slave races which could aid them in the conflict; their battles have even been ritualized, to the point where they will only fight the Kohr-Ah alone, without aid, and will not tolerate interference, setting the stage exactly as it was in the first Doctrinal Conflict. This is also reflected in their take on The Words, which involves a ritualized response with no opportunity for the listener to interject and take the speaker "off-script." The Kohr-Ah are more straightforward and utilitarian, once again as befitting their nature. As such, they primarily focus on the Doctrinal Conflict, but are not averse to pursuing other goals when the opportunity arises (the cleansing of the ZFP is a perfect example). Their ideals are also reflected in their response to The Words; the Kohr-Ah simply answer the alien's questions in an honest and straightforward manner, only beginning cleansing once all questions have been answered.
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Re: Who are the most traumatized, the Kohr-Ah or the Kzer-Za?
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2007, 09:25:10 pm »

One race tries to kill everything, and the other race just wants to trap everyone. They both got issues.
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Re: Who are the most traumatized, the Kohr-Ah or the Kzer-Za?
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2007, 09:44:16 pm »

Because when it all boils down to it, the Kzer-Za are condemning other races to death just as surely as the Kohr-Ah, just in a more indirect manner. After all, given enough time, some sort of planetary event is going to cause mass extinction, unless the imprisoned race ends up killing themselves before that. This is ignoring the impact of the planetary damage the destruction of every structure over 500 years old wreaks (considering they have no compunctions about destroying subterranean structures as well).

This is assuming a lot of things about the SC universe that we don't/can't know. Do the Kzer-Za eventually slave-shield all Thralls in a sector before moving on? Do they leave any forces behind to oversee the enslaved worlds? Do they intervene in the affairs of slave shielded worlds, as they did the Traddash? Your making a (likely) assumption, that they simply enslave and move on, and in that case you'd be right.

However, you wouldn't need many ships to oversee slave-shielded worlds, so it's not impossible that they leave a ship or two behind in every quadrant. In that case they could step in in the event of a major planetary upheaval. The Kzer-Za are strong and honourable. Their doctrine forbids exterminating slaves (unless they disobey).  If they break that oath, they break the Doctrine. and if they do that, they are (in their eyes) no better than the Kohr-Ah.

Quote
The reaction to The Words is a different matter entirely. The Kzer-Za seem to place a great deal of stock in the ideas of ritual and routine, as befits their nature. Hence, their take on the Doctrinal Conflict, which causes them to sever all voluntary relations with other races and focus solely on combat with the Kohr-Ah, despite the fact that they have slave races which could aid them in the conflict; their battles have even been ritualized, to the point where they will only fight the Kohr-Ah alone, without aid, and will not tolerate interference, setting the stage exactly as it was in the first Doctrinal Conflict.

This is also reflected in their take on The Words, which involves a ritualized response with no opportunity for the listener to interject and take the speaker "off-script." The Kohr-Ah are more straightforward and utilitarian, once again as befitting their nature. As such, they primarily focus on the Doctrinal Conflict, but are not averse to pursuing other goals when the opportunity arises (the cleansing of the ZFP is a perfect example). Their ideals are also reflected in their response to The Words; the Kohr-Ah simply answer the alien's questions in an honest and straightforward manner, only beginning cleansing once all questions have been answered.
[/quote]

But if using the slave races violates the doctrine, then they have no choice. The Kohr-Ah follow a similar pattern. Instead of finishing off the Utwig and Supox, which would be the logical course of action, they just drop everything and head straight for the Kzer-Za. They both follow their doctrines. The Kzer-Za are more organized, because their Doctrine demands that they deal with other races. The Kohr-Ah need not be, as they deal only with their own kind.

In regards to the ZFP, the Kohr-Ah reaction doesn't seem out of the ordinary..The doctrine is on hold for as long as they are fighting the Kzer-Za, but not within the battle zone. Thus, when they find a race there they exterminate. The Kzer-Za do the exact same thing. When they find a renegade human within their sphere, they certainly do their best to hunt you down and finish you off. But they ignore you once you leave their perimeter, in the same way that the Kohr-Ah ignore all races outside that perimeter.

In regards to the Words, I'd say it's a question of habit. The Kzer-Za are used to dominating, ordering and generally speaking to their inferiors. So they speak to you in the only way they know. The way they speak to all aliens that must be dominated. The Kohr-Ah on the other hand mostly speak to each other, or to creatures about to be wiped out. They are not used to ordering people around, because they have noone to order around.

So in conclusion, both races are messed up, but in my book the Kohr-Ah are a rung higher up on the scrambled ladder.

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Re: Who are the most traumatized, the Kohr-Ah or the Kzer-Za?
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2007, 11:36:23 pm »

Because when it all boils down to it, the Kzer-Za are condemning other races to death just as surely as the Kohr-Ah, just in a more indirect manner. After all, given enough time, some sort of planetary event is going to cause mass extinction, unless the imprisoned race ends up killing themselves before that. This is ignoring the impact of the planetary damage the destruction of every structure over 500 years old wreaks (considering they have no compunctions about destroying subterranean structures as well).

This is assuming a lot of things about the SC universe that we don't/can't know. Do the Kzer-Za eventually slave-shield all Thralls in a sector before moving on? Do they leave any forces behind to oversee the enslaved worlds? Do they intervene in the affairs of slave shielded worlds, as they did the Traddash? Your making a (likely) assumption, that they simply enslave and move on, and in that case you'd be right.

They leave battle Thralls behind. The Battle Thralls just have a tendency to wander off, as in the case of Earth. The absence of them on the Syreen world is probably a plot hole or overlooked detail.


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Re: Who are the most traumatized, the Kohr-Ah or the Kzer-Za?
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2007, 11:38:47 pm »

I think these guys just need a nice long hug Sad.
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Re: Who are the most traumatized, the Kohr-Ah or the Kzer-Za?
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2007, 12:26:24 am »

They leave battle Thralls behind. The Battle Thralls just have a tendency to wander off, as in the case of Earth. The absence of them on the Syreen world is probably a plot hole or overlooked detail.

But once the Ur-Quan fleet leaves the sector, what makes a Battle Thrall a "thrall" anymore? Their masters are gone, and effectively will never return. It seems much more likely that the Ur-Quan simply slave shield their Battle Thralls once they're finished with a given region of space, and the entire fleet moves on. Nothing to administrate, no need to split forces, and no concerns about slaves rebelling once the main Ur-Quan presence has left.

Quote
In regards to the Words, I'd say it's a question of habit. The Kzer-Za are used to dominating, ordering and generally speaking to their inferiors. So they speak to you in the only way they know. The way they speak to all aliens that must be dominated. The Kohr-Ah on the other hand mostly speak to each other, or to creatures about to be wiped out. They are not used to ordering people around, because they have noone to order around.

Actually, this explanation makes a lot of sense, too. The Kzer-Za wouldn't want to encourage free thought among races soon to be their slaves, whereas the Kohr-Ah wouldn't care less.

Quote
This is assuming a lot of things about the SC universe that we don't/can't know. Do the Kzer-Za eventually slave-shield all Thralls in a sector before moving on? Do they leave any forces behind to oversee the enslaved worlds? Do they intervene in the affairs of slave shielded worlds, as they did the Traddash? Your making a (likely) assumption, that they simply enslave and move on, and in that case you'd be right.

However, you wouldn't need many ships to oversee slave-shielded worlds, so it's not impossible that they leave a ship or two behind in every quadrant. In that case they could step in in the event of a major planetary upheaval. The Kzer-Za are strong and honourable. Their doctrine forbids exterminating slaves (unless they disobey).  If they break that oath, they break the Doctrine. and if they do that, they are (in their eyes) no better than the Kohr-Ah.

There are a few problems with these lines of reasoning. First of all, the Thraddash had decided to become Battle Thralls, and apparently did not understand how limited their "limited autonomy" actually would be. So the Ur-Quan stepped in to enforce their brand of absolute discipline. If the Thraddash had elected to slave shield themselves, I suspect the Ur-Quan may not have found out about the atomic exchange (or whatever weapon of mass destruction they would have wound up using in the absence of the technology the Ur-Quan would have taken away had they chosen that route) until many years later, and likely wouldn't have cared very much, simply seeing it as further justification that aliens could not be trusted nor allowed to rule themselves.

There is also the issue of the Ur-Quan leaving behind the equivalent of a police fleet to keep order in a conquered sector. First of all, with the coming battles in a new region of space, they would want to have as large a fleet as possible to hasten conquest as much as possible. Second, how large a fleet would have to be left behind to keep their Battle Thralls in check? If the fleet is too small, a revolt is sure to come as soon as the bulk of the Ur-Quan force has moved on. If it's too large, the Ur-Quan risk not having the resources to conquer the next region of space. And if enough Battle Thralls are present in a given area, it is possible that any split of Ur-Quan forces could produce one of those unfavorable outcomes.

I can't imagine the Ur-Quan being willing to move on with the potential for leaving behind loose ends like these. The only way for them to assure complete obedience among their slaves is to remove all of their autonomy while their masters are away. This entails that any remaining Battle Thralls within a conquered sector be relocated to a slave shielded world and turned into fallow slaves. The Ur-Quan can then leave with a clear conscience, knowing that their own safety is assured, and that any harm that befalls their slaves was a result of their own self-destructive tendencies or unfortunate (yet inevitable) chance. This is part of a greater evil inherent within both doctrines, but only immediately apparent in the Kohr-Ah's: The Ur-Quans' motivations are purely selfish. They don't care about other races, only themselves and their own safety and independance. The Kzer-Za are only deluding themselves into thinking that they are superior, because they only kill directly to enforce their doctrine. In the end, the results are the same, and the only difference is whether or not the world in question is reduced to a charred husk, or simply a barren orb with an impenetrable shield covering it.
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Re: Who are the most traumatized, the Kohr-Ah or the Kzer-Za?
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2007, 02:42:23 am »

Well both species of the Ur-Quan, did what they did for their own protection due to the enslaving they received, so one assumes they would both feel traumatized and threatened again, but I believe the Kohr-Ah would be more. Because the Kohr-Ah were on a path of destruction, and they were stopped, they're probably ashamed more than anything.

The Kzer-Za would be traumatized, but not as much as the Kohr-Ah.
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Re: Who are the most traumatized, the Kohr-Ah or the Kzer-Za?
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2007, 03:51:43 am »

The most traumatized. . .I would have to say the Gazurtoid. They don't even talk about their feelings and they don't have any pets for comfort. They also taste quite good in a number of Italian dishes and that can't be good for your self-esteem.
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Re: Who are the most traumatized, the Kohr-Ah or the Kzer-Za?
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2007, 08:06:16 am »

If the Words (and the Dnyarri slavery) struck them with such force, they would probably NOT talk about them, would they?

Why assign human psychology to them?  They might or might not tend, as a species, to talk more or less about something, the more traumatic it was.

I'd say the Kohr-Ah were more traumatized/broken, just because they seem to have regressed back towards their... roots, more than the Kzer-Za.  The Kzer-Za are broken, too, but they're hanging on to the remaining scraps of civilization, logic, cooperation, and what-have-you.

Also... the way the Dnyarri modified the Kohr-Ah was pretty much the opposite of the direction they'd been heading before.  They worked hard to be able to repress those instincts, to be able to work with/be around/interact non-violently with other species, and the Dnyarri came and turned them back into killers.  Seems like that must be painful.  The modifications made to the Kzer-Za, on the other hand, would seem not to be such an antithesis to what they were trying to do for themselves.
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