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Question: Who are the most traumatized, the Kohr-Ah or the Kzer-Za?
Kohr-Ah
Kzer-Za
Both
Impossible to say

Author Topic: Who are the most traumatized, the Kohr-Ah or the Kzer-Za?  (Read 10938 times)
Valaggar
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Re: Who are the most traumatized, the Kohr-Ah or the Kzer-Za?
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2007, 02:45:57 pm »

First of all, about the Words:
The Words induced a spontaneous reaction when they were first uttered, so a ritual couldn’t have been established. So when the Words are uttered, the Ur-Quan (KZ/KA) divulge honestly their very feelings, they do not use pre-composed ritualistic sentences.
Worth mentioning that the Arilou say “twined about the memory of pain” – it is a spontaneous response induced by the trauma.

(Also worth metioning that it is the Excruciator pain that traumatized them, not the effective Dnyarri slavery, as results from the very same Arilou quote and from this Kohr-Ah quote:
Can you imagine, alien, what it must have been like to wear an excruciator?
To live in endless screaming pain for months on end? No you cannot.
)

There are also these quotes:
Zelnick: What has made you this way? It is insane!
Kohr-Ah: You have not asked properly.
If you do not ask properly, we will not discuss this matter.
Instead, we cleanse.


Zelnick: I cannot understand why you do this.
Kohr-Ah: Your understanding is not necessary.

The first one seems to indicate that the Words have been turned by the Kohr-Ah, at least, into a ritual, augmented by the second one who shows the great difference between how Kohr-Ah behave normally and how they behave when answering the Words.
It seems likely, though, that the ritual is instead NOT answering any other plea, no matter how much the Ur-Quan would like to. Or they simply say that the way you formulated your plea was not persuasive enough.
After all, they say:
Your words, `Why do you do this thing?' echo that ancient plea.
- it is an echo, not a ritual.

(I'd like to remember, also, that some say that the Kohr-Ah only initiate communications in case they hear the Words. This is not true, as they also use to share a "comforting fact" with their victims - that they have the chance to be reborn as Ur-Quan. Not to mention that they can simply wait for the victim to open communications and utter the Words.)

Quote from: waywardoctagon
Why assign human psychology to them?  They might or might not tend, as a species, to talk more or less about something, the more traumatic it was.
I thought that, since they are so violent and so proud, they tend not to talk about such dishonourable things, instead "ordering" them not to exist anymore - they repress them.

Quote from: waywardoctagon
I'd say the Kohr-Ah were more traumatized/broken, just because they seem to have regressed back towards their... roots, more than the Kzer-Za.  The Kzer-Za are broken, too, but they're hanging on to the remaining scraps of civilization, logic, cooperation, and what-have-you.
Indeed, this is a very good point. But since they were modified from the ground up, and they had no education or anything to keep the nostalgia for the "peaceful old times", they shouldn't be traumatized that their species was changed so much. Their roots were moved too. Indeed, they seem very content with it.
While the Kzer-Za -- well, they probably also had more mental freedom, being the Thinkers...
Anyway, as I said, pain was what traumatized the Ur-Quan (KZ/KA). The Kohr-Ah had a better resistance to pain. The Kzer-Za did not.
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Re: Who are the most traumatized, the Kohr-Ah or the Kzer-Za?
« Reply #16 on: April 27, 2007, 06:30:08 pm »

The Kohr-ah get more "emotional" about the path of now & forever, from the text it seems like they are more dedicated
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such as, WE WILL KILL YOU FOR DISOBEYING!
This is not a complex idea.
Valaggar
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Re: Who are the most traumatized, the Kohr-Ah or the Kzer-Za?
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2007, 08:25:10 pm »

Well, the Kohr-Ah do NOT talk about the most traumatizing part, the use of the Excruciators to defeat the Dnyarri. Thus, the Ur-Quan, like humans, do not talk about things that have traumatized them. Ergo, the Kzer-Za are more traumatized, since they talk less.
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Death 999
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Re: Who are the most traumatized, the Kohr-Ah or the Kzer-Za?
« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2007, 06:34:31 pm »

You switched from Kohr-Ah to Kzer-Za. Which do you mean?
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Valaggar
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Re: Who are the most traumatized, the Kohr-Ah or the Kzer-Za?
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2007, 06:42:18 pm »

I never switched. I was supporting that the Kzer-Za are the most traumatized, both in Reply #17 as well as in the older posts.
Probably you misunderstood Reply #17 (I didn't word it too well).
What it was saying is:
Assumption 1 (counter-argument to Reply #14): Kohr-Ah do not talk about the most traumatizing part (the Excruciators), nor do the Kzer-Za.
Conclusion 1: Negative Reply #14 (I mean, the Ur-Quan KZ/KA do not talk about traumatizing experiencing, just like humans).

Assumption 2: The Kzer-Za talk less about their trauma.
Conclusion 2 (from Conclusion 1 and Assumption 2): The Kzer-Za are more traumatized.

I think this Daktaklakpak-ish layout is the best way of wording reasonings like this one.
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Re: Who are the most traumatized, the Kohr-Ah or the Kzer-Za?
« Reply #20 on: May 03, 2007, 09:32:14 am »

the kohr-ah are clearly more traumatized since their doctrine entails completely wiping out species. this is a side effect of the extreme paranoia they suffer from. the kzer-za, by allowing species to remain alive shows less of a fear that the races will somehow rise up and come back to enslave or kill the ur quan again. the attitude of the kzer-za shows a sense of "reason" and I use that term loosely, but they at least have more "reason" then the kohr-ah, therefore making them the less paranoid of the 2.

kzer-za = we let the species live, it is very unlikely that they would ever be able to rise up against us
kohr-ah = we're afraid they may in fact rise up if we let them live, we must kill them all
« Last Edit: May 03, 2007, 09:37:26 am by big flu » Logged
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Re: Who are the most traumatized, the Kohr-Ah or the Kzer-Za?
« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2007, 07:05:21 pm »

The most traumatized. . .I would have to say the Gazurtoid. They don't even talk about their feelings and they don't have any pets for comfort. They also taste quite good in a number of Italian dishes and that can't be good for your self-esteem.

Wrong game, doofus.  Tongue
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Re: Who are the most traumatized, the Kohr-Ah or the Kzer-Za?
« Reply #22 on: May 04, 2007, 11:26:25 pm »

Assuming that we can apply trama to the Ur-Quan in the same manner as we
would approach the mind of humans, I'll go with Korh-ah as being more
tramatized.

There is nothing, short of killing them all, which will stop the Korh-ah. They appear
unable or unwilling to change their approach or view on the world. The Greenies,
on the other hand, can and do change their views from time to time, or
at least the way they interact with other races. Also, the green Ur-Quan give
races options (thrall or fallow slave) where the black Quan offer only death. This
leads me to think the black Quan were more ... broken than their green counter parts.
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Re: Who are the most traumatized, the Kohr-Ah or the Kzer-Za?
« Reply #23 on: May 05, 2007, 06:18:46 am »

Assuming that we can apply trama to the Ur-Quan in the same manner as we
would approach the mind of humans, I'll go with Korh-ah as being more
tramatized.

There is nothing, short of killing them all, which will stop the Korh-ah. They appear
unable or unwilling to change their approach or view on the world. The Greenies,
on the other hand, can and do change their views from time to time, or
at least the way they interact with other races. Also, the green Ur-Quan give
races options (thrall or fallow slave) where the black Quan offer only death. This
leads me to think the black Quan were more ... broken than their green counter parts.


this is correct as long as we are applying human psychology to it, there is no question the kohr-ah are more 'undone' by the trauma. its impossible to analyze it outside of human psychology so that is a whole different game. however it also depends on one's interpretation of alot of aspects, such as the line between insanity and genius or madness and clarity. often times in human psychology the more one leans towards genius or clarity the more one can be seen as bordering on insane to the common folk. so in that sense one could argue that kohr-ah are actually more 'developed' mentally rather then traumatized, and the kzer-za, in their sense of 'weakness' to let species live, are actually less developed, still holding "morals" and "humanity" as somewhat important items, when those things are very "earthly" and primitive.

it really depends on what side of the line you want to look at it from.
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Valaggar
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Re: Who are the most traumatized, the Kohr-Ah or the Kzer-Za?
« Reply #24 on: May 05, 2007, 07:53:42 am »

The mistake most of the posters in this thread make is that they don't realize this:
Let "psychology" be the quantity which defines how "warped" their psychology is (so the Kohr-Ah psychology is larger than the one of the Kzer-Za).
Trauma=change in psychology
Trauma=psychologyfinal - psychologyinitial
TraumaKohr-Ah=psychologyfinalKohr-Ah - psychologyinitialKohr-Ah
TraumaKzer-Za=psychologyfinalKzer-Za - psychologyinitialKzer-Za

psychologyinitialKohr-Ah=psychologyinitialKzer-Za + n, n>0
psychologyfinalKohr-Ah=psychologyfinalKzer-Za + m, m>0

TraumaKohr-Ah=psychologyfinalKzer-Za + m - (psychologyinitialKzer-Za + n)
TraumaKohr-Ah=psychologyfinalKzer-Za - psychologyinitialKzer-Za + m - n
TraumaKohr-Ah=TraumaKzer-Za + (m - n)

So this depends upon the unknown values of m and n. Thus, we cannot use the fact that the Kohr-Ah are more warped in comparison to us than the Kzer-Za, because they were so initially, anyway (before the trauma).
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Re: Who are the most traumatized, the Kohr-Ah or the Kzer-Za?
« Reply #25 on: May 05, 2007, 05:02:24 pm »

Wtf are you babbling on about?
« Last Edit: May 05, 2007, 05:04:51 pm by Elerium » Logged
Valaggar
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Re: Who are the most traumatized, the Kohr-Ah or the Kzer-Za?
« Reply #26 on: May 05, 2007, 09:06:05 pm »

In normal speech:

We measure how traumatized a species is by measuring how warped it is.
The Kohr-Ah are more evil than the Kzer-Za, but this doesn't mean that they had to warp more than the Kzer-Za to become so.

Let's say that the Kohr-Ah value of evilness was 3 initially, and the one of the Kzer-Za 1. And the final value of the Kohr-Ah is 6, while the one of the Kzer-Za is 5. The Kohr-Ah are more evil than the Kzer-Za, both initially and finally, but they only changed 6-3=+3, while the Kzer-Za changed 5-1=+4, so here the Kzer-Za are more traumatized.
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Re: Who are the most traumatized, the Kohr-Ah or the Kzer-Za?
« Reply #27 on: May 06, 2007, 05:42:51 pm »

In normal speech:

We measure how traumatized a species is by measuring how warped it is.
The Kohr-Ah are more evil than the Kzer-Za, but this doesn't mean that they had to warp more than the Kzer-Za to become so.

Let's say that the Kohr-Ah value of evilness was 3 initially, and the one of the Kzer-Za 1. And the final value of the Kohr-Ah is 6, while the one of the Kzer-Za is 5. The Kohr-Ah are more evil than the Kzer-Za, both initially and finally, but they only changed 6-3=+3, while the Kzer-Za changed 5-1=+4, so here the Kzer-Za are more traumatized.

Translation : I like to technobabble.
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Valaggar
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Re: Who are the most traumatized, the Kohr-Ah or the Kzer-Za?
« Reply #28 on: May 06, 2007, 05:50:00 pm »

It wasn't technobabble actually, it was just a simpler way (for me) to present the idea.
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Re: Who are the most traumatized, the Kohr-Ah or the Kzer-Za?
« Reply #29 on: May 06, 2007, 05:58:18 pm »

The mistake most of the posters in this thread make is that they don't realize this:
Let "psychology" be the quantity which defines how "warped" their psychology is (so the Kohr-Ah psychology is larger than the one of the Kzer-Za).
Trauma=change in psychology
Trauma=psychologyfinal - psychologyinitial
TraumaKohr-Ah=psychologyfinalKohr-Ah - psychologyinitialKohr-Ah
TraumaKzer-Za=psychologyfinalKzer-Za - psychologyinitialKzer-Za

psychologyinitialKohr-Ah=psychologyinitialKzer-Za + n, n>0
psychologyfinalKohr-Ah=psychologyfinalKzer-Za + m, m>0

TraumaKohr-Ah=psychologyfinalKzer-Za + m - (psychologyinitialKzer-Za + n)
TraumaKohr-Ah=psychologyfinalKzer-Za - psychologyinitialKzer-Za + m - n
TraumaKohr-Ah=TraumaKzer-Za + (m - n)

So this depends upon the unknown values of m and n. Thus, we cannot use the fact that the Kohr-Ah are more warped in comparison to us than the Kzer-Za, because they were so initially, anyway (before the trauma).

Is simpler than

Quote

We measure how traumatized a species is by measuring how warped it is.
The Kohr-Ah are more evil than the Kzer-Za, but this doesn't mean that they had to warp more than the Kzer-Za to become so.

Let's say that the Kohr-Ah value of evilness was 3 initially, and the one of the Kzer-Za 1. And the final value of the Kohr-Ah is 6, while the one of the Kzer-Za is 5. The Kohr-Ah are more evil than the Kzer-Za, both initially and finally, but they only changed 6-3=+3, while the Kzer-Za changed 5-1=+4, so here the Kzer-Za are more traumatized.

Is simpler than

"The Kzer-Za are more traumatized than the Kohr-Ah, despite the Kohr-Ah being more evil" ?

Remind me to never ask you to explain anything in a more complicated way.
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