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Author Topic: A problem with the Hierarchy  (Read 3964 times)
Shiver
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A problem with the Hierarchy
« on: April 27, 2007, 05:35:50 am »

If the Ur-Quan use slaves from all over the galaxy, shouldn't I be seeing ships belonging to races that aren't even located within the confines of the game? If not in SC2, then definitely in SC1. I am calling plot hole on this.
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Arne
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Re: A problem with the Hierarchy
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2007, 09:07:18 am »

You mean Kzer-Za Thralls? I suppose some could be slaves on the selfdestructing Dreadnaughts and that way you'll never see them. As for Thrall ships, the Kzer-Za might prefer to only use Thralls local to the space they're currently in.

But yeah, it is a bit of a plothole. They could've included some random encounters in the Kzer-Za sphere that were ships from out of town. It's always good to hint of things that goes on outside the screen, it makes the universe much richer since imagination tend to fill in what's missing in creative ways.

(but you shouldn't take it so far that the player feels like he's been left out.)
« Last Edit: April 27, 2007, 09:09:01 am by Arne » Logged
Valaggar
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Re: A problem with the Hierarchy
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2007, 02:13:43 pm »

There has been plenty of discussion on this matter here:
From http://uqm.stack.nl/forum/index.php?topic=3563.msg45655#msg45655 to http://uqm.stack.nl/forum/index.php?topic=3563.msg45729#msg45729
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Zeep-Eeep
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Re: A problem with the Hierarchy
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2007, 07:22:08 pm »

During the conflict between the two Ur-Quan, I think they forbid any race (thrall or
otherwise) near the battle area. They probably ordered the thralls away or
maybe the Ur-Quan leave them behind when they leave an area.
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Valaggar
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Re: A problem with the Hierarchy
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2007, 08:14:23 pm »

Well, generally, it's best to slave-shield them, actually, since they can revolt otherwise.
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Elerium
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Re: A problem with the Hierarchy
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2007, 08:18:09 pm »

In SC1 the point can be kept as races like the Thraddash were kept behind to 'watch the front lines' so to speak, in SC2 however when the Kzer-Za brag about thousands of slave races, it's a plothole I think.
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Lukipela
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Re: A problem with the Hierarchy
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2007, 08:18:46 pm »

Well, generally, it's best to slave-shield them, actually, since they can revolt otherwise.

That's what I would do, slave shield and leave a few guards behind. You have no choice really, since your doctrine doesn't allow the extermination of any slave race.

The same way I assume the Kohr-Ah always leave a few ships behind waiting for intelligent life to re-evolve. After all, you can never be too sure
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Shiver
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Re: A problem with the Hierarchy
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2007, 09:17:00 pm »

You're just tiptoeing around the issue it you really think "they slaveshield them after mopping up an area" is a valid answer. If *I* were a battle thrall so help me I would want to burn, loot and murder until the end of time and not be gyp'd out of that experience after a few decades go by.
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Lukipela
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Re: A problem with the Hierarchy
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2007, 09:22:57 pm »

You're just tiptoeing around the issue it you really think "they slaveshield them after mopping up an area" is a valid answer. If *I* were a battle thrall so help me I would want to burn, loot and murder until the end of time and not be gyp'd out of that experience after a few decades go by.

Good thing you're not a battle thrall then. What exactly do you think the thralls can do about this though? Assume that the Kzer-Za conquer a quadrant. Now they have fallow slaves and thralls. The thralls have (probably) lost large parts of their fleets in combat, and are isolated from each other. The Kzer-Za should easily be able to pick them off one by one. Thus, instead of fighting independent races that can band together and warn each other, they are culling lambs.

Besides, at least for some races the Kzer-Za help upgrade their ships. If I improved the Ilwrath Avenger, I'd be sure to include a kill-switch for whenever those little dill-rats eventually lost it.
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Shiver
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Re: A problem with the Hierarchy
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2007, 09:29:05 pm »

The Ur-Quan are certainly clever enough for that, it just strikes me as suboptimal to throw away so many assets. The other problem with this is that the Ur-Quan despise dishonest behavior. Are you sure their code of honor would even allow them to re-write the rules their slaves are under so suddenly just for the sake of expedience? That doesn't sound very Ur-Quan to me.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2007, 09:30:43 pm by Shiver » Logged
Elvish Pillager
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Re: A problem with the Hierarchy
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2007, 11:19:54 pm »

Are you sure their code of honor would even allow them to re-write the rules their slaves are under so suddenly just for the sake of expedience?
We don't know what the rules actually say.
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Re: A problem with the Hierarchy
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2007, 11:49:33 pm »

Are you sure their code of honor would even allow them to re-write the rules their slaves are under so suddenly just for the sake of expedience?
We don't know what the rules actually say.
Yep, for all we know, Slaves might get more free time than us :S.

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Re: A problem with the Hierarchy
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2007, 01:08:41 am »

Well we know that slaves get to decide their status by popular vote. Why would a species vote to be battle thralls if they're just going to end up being shielded anyway? Why help out the ones who conquered you if things will just end up being the same if you don't? If even limited autonomy is denied in the long run then there is no incentive to being a battle thrall. And the Ur-Quan don't seem to be the type to be deceptive about this since it conflicts with their philosophy (to lie is a sign of weakness).

The best explanation for the plothole would be that the Kzer-Za prefer to leave battle thralls in their local region of space and leave behind enough Dreadnoughts to support the infrastructure of their Hierarchy and to thwart slave revolts. This leaves the question of what those others are doing now that the Sa-Matra is destroyed and the Kohr-Ah death march ground to a halt.
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Valaggar
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Re: A problem with the Hierarchy
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2007, 08:52:22 am »

After all, there's no point in letting battle thralls in a conquered region of space.
And I think they'd vote to be battle thralls, even if they were going to be slave-shielded after a while. At least, they get to be free a little longer.
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Re: A problem with the Hierarchy
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2007, 05:35:03 pm »

I'm not sure if the explanation of "they slaveshield thralls when they're done with them" is a good one. It's possible, but the problem is that it seems dishonest, and the Kzer-za hate lying.

One plausible reason is that the Kzer-za usually do bring their thralls along, but didn't when they came to our region of space. Perhaps they expected to meet the Kohr-ah again soon, and felt that having a ton of thralls around would be too much baggage getting in the way of their second doctrinal war.

Another thing - SC1 not being entirely consistent with SC2 is hardly anything new. While SC1 is a good game, the story there really just exists as a backdrop for the action and strategy and to flesh out the alien races a little in the manual. I doubt they had thought of the Kohr-ah, the Dnyarri, the sentient milieu, the Thraddash, the history of the Syreen homeworld, or many other things when they made SC2. SC1 conflicts with SC2 in several places.

A few examples: it takes place 500 years later, most notably. The Spathi vs. Mmrnmhrm scenario is different from what the Spathi tell you happened in SC2. One scenario mentions "Ur-quan spies have finally found the Yehat homeworld", but we know from SC2 that the Ur-quan are definitely not the type for subterfuge, nor does SC2 give you any impression that the Yehat territory is hidden. There are several other things as well.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2007, 06:08:46 pm by Mormont » Logged
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