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Author Topic: Respect my ass  (Read 34705 times)
Deus Siddis
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Re: Respect my ass
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2007, 05:49:44 pm »

Lukipela
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That's because Christians are a powerful majority in a powerful part of the world.

Actually no. They are a big, often divided and manipulated minority in a now weak part of the world, which is mostly run by free market pirate capitalists at this point.
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Lukipela
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Re: Respect my ass
« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2007, 05:52:23 pm »

A Spirit can have supernatural abilities or it cannot and I think it can even be either supernatural/natural itself. But it is at least supposed to be indestructible either way.

This is interesting. I always assumed spirits were strictly in the realm of the supernatural. I shall have to do some research on the subject.

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Everything else Bioslayer said after this is crap, but in the US at least, this much is true (except for the "hate" part, which is a wee bit strong). There is basically nothing you cannot say about Christianity, which is not the case at all for Juddaism and Islam, its older and younger sibling religions. Looking at the whole European Muhbombhead media firings, I would say the same is true in the EU nations as well. Interestingly, the same can probably be said for Atheists, it is not strongly politically incorrect to bash their beliefs either I don't think.

I'd still say that the reason it is all right to speak out (sometimes quite harshly) about Christianity, is the same reason that it is much more acceptable to make racial jokes about white men than any other. Like it or not, both whites and Christians have been in a position of power for a very long time. Even though this isn't necessarily the case nowadays, old grudges die hard. And if your part of the majority, you can usually take a lot more than the minorities can dish out.

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Do not know about non-middle-eastern religions like Hinduism and the various micro-religions of the world. Probably no one cares about them either way so they have no protection but are never verbally directly attacked anyway.

Hindus and Muslims really hate each other in some regions of the world, such as around the India/Pakistan border.

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But us Agnostics, we don't have any beliefs to bash in the first place and are thus invincible. And because we do not put faith into anything, we are unaffected by delusional beliefs. We also have limited telekinesis and are considered highly desirable by all women.

In fact, you are cowardly craven beings that are afraid of the opinion you secretly harbour in your petty little hearts. Wink Agnostic bashing is easy, fun, and (since they don't care and won't retaliate) completely safe! Fun for the whole family. Come on, come all, see the flip-flop fall!
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Re: Respect my ass
« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2007, 05:56:08 pm »

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Why not say you respect courage (whatever that means) (or stupidity)?
Because different things can inspire courage/stupidity in those who are not naturally courageous. Such things are love and faith. It would be incorrect for me to state that someone is an idiot because he did something foolish in the throes of passion. Equally well faith can inspire someone to deeds they might not otherwise have performed, be they good or bad. To simply ignore the reasons behind actions seems a tad foolish.
I do not contest that courage/stupidity can be incited by various things. But saying you respect faith, because of the courage it can bring, is like saying you appreciate global warming because you appreciate warm weather.
Faith can have both positive and negative results. Why not say that you respect the positive results? That is what you actually mean, isn't it?

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(And I think it takes a lot more "courage" to take responsibility for your own actions, and to face up to the possibility that life has no meaning, than to hide in the comfort of the unfounded belief that somehow it all does make sense, and if you stay on His good side, everything will work out for you).
Because if you know that you will be judged for your actions in both life and afterlife, you don't have to take any responsibility for what you do? Wouldn't you be more prone to think about what you do?
This was about "courage". If you do something because of how God will punish you, you're doing it out of fear, quite the opposite of courage. Similarly, if you do something because of how he will reward you, you trust that even if it goes wrong, it will work out in the end. That's not courage either.
Courage is doing something despite that it may turn out bad for you. Taking responsibility for your actions without a God to fall back on, is what takes courage (or stupidity).

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Also, I find it silly to say that lack of faith would mean a lack of meaning, we all make our own meanings.
I did not mean to imply that. Let's rephrase my line as "the possibility that all the meaning there is to life is what you give it yourself".

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Also, feel free to hide in the comfort of whatever belief of purpose/non-purpose that sustains you,
Note that I talked about the possibility of life heaving no (inherent) meaning. I never claimed I believed either way. (I try not to "believe" at all.)

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but to assume that all beliefs are summed up that simply once again seems a tad silly.
I don't think I was summing anything up.

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And now I am supremely confused. I said "Judge people by their actions" and you make some sort of war case of it? Judging the Americans based on their actions in the war doesn't really justify it, unless you count "lying to start a extremely poorly planned war" to somehow be a virtuous action. Elaborate please?
What I mean is that if you do something for the wrong reason, the fact that it worked out  right does not excuse doing it for those reasons. I was just making a point by analogy.

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Re: Respect my ass
« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2007, 06:02:09 pm »

Atheist means you believe there is/are no god(s) that exist or have ever existed or will ever exist outside of people's imaginations. A god is something that can do things not naturally possible, things that are "supernatural" (whatever little ground that term actually covers anymore). If you are unsure either way, then you are Agnostic.
Actually, "atheism" can refer to both the belief that there is no god, and the lack of a belief in a god, depending on who's using the word. Just look it up in any dictionary.
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Re: Respect my ass
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2007, 06:03:35 pm »

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Not really. Agnostics believe in the doctrine that the existence of the supernatural is unknown/unknowable. So they do have a belief too.
The only people that don't have any beliefs whatsoever are indifferent people, who don't care about these issues.

I am not sure if that definition is the current common one anymore. Either way, what would you call people who do not know because the definitions of gods and what is naturally possible seems so unclear/changing?

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God is by definition superior to any relatives. He is, after all, Creator, while parents are only those who gave birth to somebody. And His love knows no bounds.

If he is more important because he created the first people, then a grand parent is more important than a parent and a great grand parent even more important still. This seems contrary to how things work in real life, as a parent is going to be more impactful than a dead relative from 50 generations ago.
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Ivan Ivanov
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Re: Respect my ass
« Reply #20 on: May 07, 2007, 06:05:39 pm »

Because different things can inspire courage/stupidity in those who are not naturally courageous. Such things are love and faith. It would be incorrect for me to state that someone is an idiot because he did something foolish in the throes of passion. Equally well faith can inspire someone to deeds they might not otherwise have performed, be they good or bad. To simply ignore the reasons behind actions seems a tad foolish.

Sure, you should look at someone's motivation, but I think the way you presented it is a bit backwards.
Usually we judge one's actions based on their motivation, not the other way around.
If someone does something good, great and noble out of greed , does that make greed good, great and noble, or does his motivation make the actions not so good great or noble anymore?

Anyways the sort of respect you ask of wouldn't be half bad. It seems all you're asking for is an acknowledgement that good things can come out of it. I have no problem with that.

What irks me (and Meep, I think) is that the sort of respect people ask for faith, religion, beliefs, or often any opinions about anything, seems to be equivalent with censoring all criticism of it.
Yeah, everyone has the right to believe whatever they want, and voice their opinions/beliefs.
Unfortunately for some, this includes the right of the other guy to believe, and to say, that what they believe is wrong, rediculous, or just plain stupid.
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Ivan Ivanov
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Re: Respect my ass
« Reply #21 on: May 07, 2007, 06:12:29 pm »

which is mostly run by free market pirate capitalists at this point.

Oooh, I get to derail a thread.
So, tell me comrade, what part of the world is run by those free market capitalists with eye-patches?

I mean, any part of the world that is either full of free market capitalists OR pirates would be cool enough to make me want to move there.
But a place full of free market capitalists and pirates at the same time sounds almost too good to be true.
Just tell me where it is, and I'll start packing my bags.
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meep-eep
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Re: Respect my ass
« Reply #22 on: May 07, 2007, 06:14:32 pm »

Your inspirational Bible quote of the day, Mathew 10:34:
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Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household'. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.
Know what you believe.
Yes indeed, Jesus' teachings led to many bloodshed, both Christian and non-Christian blood. This is in no way His fault.
Isn't that a teensy bit contradictory with his supposed teachings of non-violence?

Ok, now try this one (Mark 11:12):
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Now the next day, when they had come out from Bethany, He was hungry. And seeing from afar a fig tree having leaves, He went to see if perhaps He would find something on it. When He came to it, He found nothing but leaves, for it was not the season for figs. In response Jesus said to it, “Let no one eat fruit from you ever again.”
[...]
Now in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots. 21 And Peter, remembering, said to Him, “Rabbi, look! The fig tree which You cursed has withered away.”
What's the lesson in that? No matter how unreasonable you are, have faith and your wishes will come true?


(Also, I agree completely with Ivan Ivanov just said in response to Lukipela.)

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Re: Respect my ass
« Reply #23 on: May 07, 2007, 06:27:57 pm »

Lukipela
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This is interesting. I always assumed spirits were strictly in the realm of the supernatural. I shall have to do some research on the subject.

It is unclear, since the border between natural/supernatural is ever changing and many of these definitions are extremely old and vague.

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I'd still say that the reason it is all right to speak out (sometimes quite harshly) about Christianity, is the same reason that it is much more acceptable to make racial jokes about white men than any other.

No, simply put there is no reason. That is why the internet language is the way it is. Wink

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And if your part of the majority, you can usually take a lot more than the minorities can dish out.

As the minorities can too, I am sure, given that words have difficulty penetrating flesh, unless you believe they/we/whoever are inherently more fragile. Either way, unless you are a highly conforming robot, in a modern society you are a minority in more places than one and a majority in the others too. On one subject you have the 'people' behind you and on another you do not.

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Hindus and Muslims really hate each other in some regions of the world, such as around the India/Pakistan border.

Well that is why I localized what I said to the US and EU to a lesser extent.

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In fact, you are cowardly craven beings that are afraid of the opinion you secretly harbour in your petty little hearts.  Agnostic bashing is easy, fun, and (since they don't care and won't retaliate) completely safe! Fun for the whole family. Come on, come all, see the flip-flop fall!

You lost someone to one of us supernaturally handsome Agnostics, didn't you?
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Deus Siddis
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Re: Respect my ass
« Reply #24 on: May 07, 2007, 06:34:31 pm »

meep-eep
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Actually, "atheism" can refer to both the belief that there is no god, and the lack of a belief in a god, depending on who's using the word. Just look it up in any dictionary.

I know, but on this subject I try to use the 'current' or 'common' definition (which is actually tomorrow's 'dictionary' or 'official' definition). When most people say "Atheist", they mean someone who believes there is no god, from what I understand. When they say "Agnostic" they mean someone who is somehow on the fence or does not care either way. I am usually classified by people as "Agnostic" because I am unsure if what exactly a god is or if it could someday be attainable through natural laws we are not fully aware of right now, or maybe long before when people first invented the concept.
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Deus Siddis
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Re: Respect my ass
« Reply #25 on: May 07, 2007, 06:48:45 pm »

Comrade Ivanov
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Oooh, I get to derail a thread.
So, tell me comrade, what part of the world is run by those free market capitalists with eye-patches?

I mean, any part of the world that is either full of free market capitalists OR pirates would be cool enough to make me want to move there.
But a place full of free market capitalists and pirates at the same time sounds almost too good to be true.
Just tell me where it is, and I'll start packing my bags.

The US and the EU, so no need to move. Wink
Just enjoy it all while it lasts, the world will probably come under a new dominant system once the US matches the EU in craptastic military strength after probably just about five or so years from now. Grin
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Re: Respect my ass
« Reply #26 on: May 07, 2007, 09:22:53 pm »

Your inspirational Bible quote of the day, Mathew 10:34:
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Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household'. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.
Know what you believe.
Yes indeed, Jesus' teachings led to many bloodshed, both Christian and non-Christian blood. This is in no way His fault.
Isn't that a teensy bit contradictory with his supposed teachings of non-violence?
No, why? This is just a remark about the violence that (unintentionally) His teaching will bring; simply saying this doesn't mean teaching violence.

Ok, now try this one (Mark 11:12):
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Now the next day, when they had come out from Bethany, He was hungry. And seeing from afar a fig tree having leaves, He went to see if perhaps He would find something on it. When He came to it, He found nothing but leaves, for it was not the season for figs. In response Jesus said to it, “Let no one eat fruit from you ever again.”
[...]
Now in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots. 21 And Peter, remembering, said to Him, “Rabbi, look! The fig tree which You cursed has withered away.”
What's the lesson in that? No matter how unreasonable you are, have faith and your wishes will come true?
The tree is meant to symbolize the Jewish people, who didn't recognize the Messiah; it had no spiritual fruits. See the correspondents of the parable in other gospels: Luke 13:6-9 (here this is not told as an action of Jesus), Matthew 21:18-22 (this version emphasizes the miracle itself, less its significance).
I'd like to link to this page.

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Just enjoy it all while it lasts, the world will probably come under a new dominant system once the EU matches the US in craptastic military strength after probably just about five or so years from now.  Grin
This may well deserve its own thread, but the EU isn't bound on bettering the US militarily, rather economically, which is, too, an utopia, since US is US, after all.
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Deus Siddis
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Re: Respect my ass
« Reply #27 on: May 07, 2007, 10:42:37 pm »

Jesus: "So be it. . .Fig Tree. If you will not be turned to the Dark Side. . .then you will be DESTROYED! (Force Lightning)"

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This may well deserve its own thread, but the EU isn't bound on bettering the US militarily, rather economically, which is, too, an utopia, since US is US, after all.

No, I meant the US will decline to join the EU in strength level or lower, perhaps even dragging the later down to a lower level with it. This doesn't necessarily mean things will be worse for the people living in those places, just that their global reach or influence will be hugely diminished or non-existant, leaving exposed soil for new empires to grow.
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Cedric6014
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Re: Respect my ass
« Reply #28 on: May 07, 2007, 10:54:31 pm »

I mean, any part of the world that is either full of free market capitalists OR pirates would be cool enough to make me want to move there.
But a place full of free market capitalists and pirates at the same time sounds almost too good to be true.
Just tell me where it is, and I'll start packing my bags.

I believe its called Somalia. I am sure the market there is as free as you like - and as a bonus, there's no government to collect your taxes. That's is a sweet deal! Of course there's a bit of a problem with all the warlords and genocide and so forth, but you can buy guns cheaply so safety won't be an issue...
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Re: Respect my ass
« Reply #29 on: May 08, 2007, 12:13:38 am »

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What's the lesson in that? No matter how unreasonable you are, have faith and your wishes will come true?
The tree is meant to symbolize the Jewish people, who didn't recognize the Messiah.
So Jesus curses the Jewish people? I think I liked him better getting mad at a tree.


Edit: fix quoting tags
« Last Edit: May 08, 2007, 04:41:20 am by meep-eep » Logged

“When Juffo-Wup is complete
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then we can finally rest.”
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