The Ur-Quan Masters Home Page Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
February 26, 2021, 05:50:37 pm
Home Help Search Login Register
News: Paul & Fred have reached a settlement with Stardock!

+  The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum
|-+  The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release
| |-+  Starbase Café (Moderator: Death 999)
| | |-+  Respect my ass
« previous next »
Pages: 1 ... 5 6 [7] 8 9 ... 11 Print
Author Topic: Respect my ass  (Read 38305 times)
Neonlare
*Smell* controller
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 277


Nut Case for Star Control


View Profile
Re: Respect my ass
« Reply #90 on: August 06, 2007, 02:44:36 am »

3 My point is that to have faith in a theory that can't be proven can be seen as much folly as being religious, because neither can be proved hence forth neither should be followed without taking it with a pinch of salt.
While a certain degree of scepticism is useful in most cases, the trick is to apply suitable amounts of it. The major problem with religions is that there are so many of them and precious little ways to evaluate them against each other. In science, you can use the amount of testing and criticism a theory has stood up to determine how big a pinch of salt you need.

Indeed, I like your approach to this, it's not like your typical "You're wrong because I think you are" sort of thing, and you are keeping a neutrality, which is needed for a Discussion, and not an Arguement.

Anyhow, there has been a high rate of recorded OBEs from clinical deaths, roughly 90%. Also, there's the ideals of "Spiritualism" which also comes across as odd. In Spiritualist Churches, the mediums that are there, who do readings and such, have an uncanny rate of accuracy. I've visited a Church like this myself, to expand my knowledge on religions, and when I went for my own private reading, the medium identified my father's name, my heightened interest in the Orient, certain personal events that have happened in my life (direct definitions, not just "did you have a dog?" thing that is usually seen on television) and such, it was my first reading aswell. I'm still sceptical about such things, but it was enough to shake me up a little, and I've seen this in other cases aswell. This could be put down to Psychic abilities, but then again, that's another thing that is still under debate right now.

Alas, what I dislike about the majority of these style topics, is the fact that it involves a lot of bringing up a currently un-answerable question. It's like kicking a dead-cow in the road, nothing's going to come from it. Infact I dislike the fact that this sort of discussion is on a forum dedicated to a video game, not religious/atheist discussions of what happened when and what exactly is real. If anything, I'd suggest a seperate forum section for this stuff, Phillosophy or such, and leave General Discussion to just that.
Logged

"would newton's law theory actually work if a Chmmr Avatar did a backwards pelvic thrust towards a planet and would this constitute an X=Y-0 in the part it ran straight into a Supox Blade and lasted long enough to survive?" - Elerium (as Valaggar)
Novus
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1938


Fot or not?


View Profile
Re: Respect my ass
« Reply #91 on: August 06, 2007, 02:58:53 am »

when I went for my own private reading, the medium identified my father's name, my heightened interest in the Orient, certain personal events that have happened in my life (direct definitions, not just "did you have a dog?" thing that is usually seen on television) and such, it was my first reading aswell.
This sounds like the sort of random factoids you can pick up by listening in on conversations. The first thing I'd try to rule out is that the alleged medium hasn't simply been hanging around with his ears open (or has an accomplice in this role). Were the facts he mentioned well known to your friends, relatives or suchlike? Did he know your identity in advance?

Quote
Alas, what I dislike about the majority of these style topics, is the fact that it involves a lot of bringing up a currently un-answerable question. It's like kicking a dead-cow in the road, nothing's going to come from it. Infact I dislike the fact that this sort of discussion is on a forum dedicated to a video game, not religious/atheist discussions of what happened when and what exactly is real. If anything, I'd suggest a seperate forum section for this stuff, Phillosophy or such, and leave General Discussion to just that.
Uh, this is the Starbase Café, which exists for more or less this purpose. That said, many of these discussions tend to go round in circles even among people who are supposedly experts on the subject.
Logged

RTFM = Read the fine manual.
RTTFAQ = Read the Ur-Quan Masters Technical FAQ.
Neonlare
*Smell* controller
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 277


Nut Case for Star Control


View Profile
Re: Respect my ass
« Reply #92 on: August 06, 2007, 03:00:44 am »

when I went for my own private reading, the medium identified my father's name, my heightened interest in the Orient, certain personal events that have happened in my life (direct definitions, not just "did you have a dog?" thing that is usually seen on television) and such, it was my first reading aswell.
This sounds like the sort of random factoids you can pick up by listening in on conversations. The first thing I'd try to rule out is that the alleged medium hasn't simply been hanging around with his ears open (or has an accomplice in this role). Were the facts he mentioned well known to your friends, relatives or suchlike? Did he know your identity in advance?

Quote
Alas, what I dislike about the majority of these style topics, is the fact that it involves a lot of bringing up a currently un-answerable question. It's like kicking a dead-cow in the road, nothing's going to come from it. Infact I dislike the fact that this sort of discussion is on a forum dedicated to a video game, not religious/atheist discussions of what happened when and what exactly is real. If anything, I'd suggest a seperate forum section for this stuff, Phillosophy or such, and leave General Discussion to just that.
Uh, this is the Starbase Café, which exists for more or less this purpose. That said, many of these discussions tend to go round in circles even among people who are supposedly experts on the subject.

Not at all, I've only recently moved into the area, none of anyone we knew went to the church, and the medium was female Wink.
Logged

"would newton's law theory actually work if a Chmmr Avatar did a backwards pelvic thrust towards a planet and would this constitute an X=Y-0 in the part it ran straight into a Supox Blade and lasted long enough to survive?" - Elerium (as Valaggar)
Novus
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1938


Fot or not?


View Profile
Re: Respect my ass
« Reply #93 on: August 06, 2007, 03:11:30 am »

Not at all, I've only recently moved into the area, none of anyone we knew went to the church, and the medium was female Wink.
Interesting. If you just dropped in unannounced in a place where nobody knows you, and she managed to figure all that out, she definitely has some impressive information-gathering skills. It's hard to tell from where I'm sitting whether extrasensory perception was necessary or not, but she does seem to be good at what she does.
Logged

RTFM = Read the fine manual.
RTTFAQ = Read the Ur-Quan Masters Technical FAQ.
Neonlare
*Smell* controller
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 277


Nut Case for Star Control


View Profile
Re: Respect my ass
« Reply #94 on: August 06, 2007, 03:13:35 am »

Not at all, I've only recently moved into the area, none of anyone we knew went to the church, and the medium was female Wink.
Interesting. If you just dropped in unannounced in a place where nobody knows you, and she managed to figure all that out, she definitely has some impressive information-gathering skills. It's hard to tell from where I'm sitting whether extrasensory perception was necessary or not, but she does seem to be good at what she does.

Indeed, right now I can't say she even knew who I was, if she did, then that would be extremely strange, especially about my interest in the Orient, because really only my family knew about it then. Anyhow, they could actually have these special abilities, or they could be ninjas! Shocked. Seriously though, it was really strange to get something that accurate :/.
Logged

"would newton's law theory actually work if a Chmmr Avatar did a backwards pelvic thrust towards a planet and would this constitute an X=Y-0 in the part it ran straight into a Supox Blade and lasted long enough to survive?" - Elerium (as Valaggar)
meep-eep
Forum Admin
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2847



View Profile
Re: Respect my ass
« Reply #95 on: August 06, 2007, 05:55:15 am »

For 2, "If being happy is all what you want your life to be about then living in a fantasy world is the way to go. Using psychotropic drugs, dreaming, escapism through works of fiction, or suffering from a disorder like Down's syndrome can all helpyou be happy.
You're implying that I am looking for a way out, despite the fact you don't know my beliefs, who I am, etc.
This is a case of miscommunication. "You" wasn't refering to you personally, but rather to "someone" in general. No insult was intended, and I was not implying that you used religion as an escape.

Quote
Also, don't ever use a Mental Disability as something that can make you "Happy." My mother works at a special needs school as a teaching assistant, and it is not true happiness, what you have just said there is sans politeness to people who do suffer from such disabilities, yes it does make them seem "optimistic" but let me tell you, they can also be wraught with sadness aswell. Also, there are a fair few high functioning Down's Syndrome sufferers, and if they were to read that, they would be very insulted (As I know a fair few as friends).
I said can, not will always in every individual. I have personally seen how happy some of these people can get from simple things. I am not claiming that everyone who has Down's syndrome will react like this, and I am not claiming that the individuals who do are happy all the time. My point is that a condition like Down's syndrome can allow someone to be happy in situations where a "normal" person would not be so. Nothing more, nothing less.

Quote
3 My point is that to have faith in a theory that can't be proven can be seen as much folly as being religious, because neither can be proved hence forth neither should be followed without taking it with a pinch of salt.
I'll be the first one to stress that anything should be examined critically.
But I have explained to you the difference between a scientific theory, and a religious idea, namely the ability to make falsifiable predictions, which makes scientific theories meaningful, but not religious ideas.
Logged

“When Juffo-Wup is complete
when at last there is no Void, no Non
when the Creators return
then we can finally rest.”
Neonlare
*Smell* controller
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 277


Nut Case for Star Control


View Profile
Re: Respect my ass
« Reply #96 on: August 06, 2007, 08:01:45 am »

For 2, "If being happy is all what you want your life to be about then living in a fantasy world is the way to go. Using psychotropic drugs, dreaming, escapism through works of fiction, or suffering from a disorder like Down's syndrome can all helpyou be happy.
You're implying that I am looking for a way out, despite the fact you don't know my beliefs, who I am, etc.
This is a case of miscommunication. "You" wasn't refering to you personally, but rather to "someone" in general. No insult was intended, and I was not implying that you used religion as an escape.

Quote
Also, don't ever use a Mental Disability as something that can make you "Happy." My mother works at a special needs school as a teaching assistant, and it is not true happiness, what you have just said there is sans politeness to people who do suffer from such disabilities, yes it does make them seem "optimistic" but let me tell you, they can also be wraught with sadness aswell. Also, there are a fair few high functioning Down's Syndrome sufferers, and if they were to read that, they would be very insulted (As I know a fair few as friends).
I said can, not will always in every individual. I have personally seen how happy some of these people can get from simple things. I am not claiming that everyone who has Down's syndrome will react like this, and I am not claiming that the individuals who do are happy all the time. My point is that a condition like Down's syndrome can allow someone to be happy in situations where a "normal" person would not be so. Nothing more, nothing less.

Quote
3 My point is that to have faith in a theory that can't be proven can be seen as much folly as being religious, because neither can be proved hence forth neither should be followed without taking it with a pinch of salt.
I'll be the first one to stress that anything should be examined critically.
But I have explained to you the difference between a scientific theory, and a religious idea, namely the ability to make falsifiable predictions, which makes scientific theories meaningful, but not religious ideas.


1 Fair enough, although from the wording, it's easy to mistaken this.

2 Don't say this then. Because it's clear that you don't know what you're talking about here. You used Down's Syndrome as a derogative statement though, did you not say that "if being happy is all what you want in your life to be about then living in a fantasy world is the way to go"? After which you use examples.

3 Likewise, theories are just that right now, theories. They can't be proven yet.

3 Oh wait, did we just go full circle here?
Logged

"would newton's law theory actually work if a Chmmr Avatar did a backwards pelvic thrust towards a planet and would this constitute an X=Y-0 in the part it ran straight into a Supox Blade and lasted long enough to survive?" - Elerium (as Valaggar)
Simon K
Frungy champion
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 70



View Profile WWW
Re: Respect my ass
« Reply #97 on: August 06, 2007, 11:57:43 am »

It seems there's some confusion as to what, exactly, a "theory" means in scientific terminology. The day-to-day, informal use of the word "theory" is in fact closer to what scientists term a "hypothesis": An idea that has yet to be conclusively supported. A theory in science, on the other hand, is a logically consistent framework which is formulated to systematically explain observed, related phenomena, and which has been verified experimentally to such an extent that it has come to be widely, or even universally, accepted in the scientific community. Theories are testable and predictive -- it is possible to verify (or disprove) a theory using observations, and it is possible to predict future events using the theory. The theory of gravity, for example, systematically explains observations about planetary movements and falling objects, allows us to predict the movement of planets, and to predict that on a large body (such as a planet), objects will fall towards that body when dropped. As such, the term "theory of evolution" or "Big Bang theory" does not connote that these two frameworks are merely hunches or educated guesses, but that they are widely, nearly universally accepted systems of explanation, supported by firm observable evidence.

(A bit of a personal nit of mine -- this is why I cringe a little bit whenever someone talks about "string theory" -- "string theory" is, in fact, a hypothesis, since it is as of yet unverifiable. It also makes me mutter obscenities under my breath whenever some religious type attacks evolution on grounds that it's "just a theory" -- in scientific terminology, labelling something a "theory" means it's pretty much the best explanation we currently have. Yes, my blood pressure probably is too high.)
Logged

Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
Simon K
Frungy champion
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 70



View Profile WWW
Re: Respect my ass
« Reply #98 on: August 06, 2007, 12:07:59 pm »

Quote
But I have explained to you the difference between a scientific theory, and a religious idea, namely the ability to make falsifiable predictions, which makes scientific theories meaningful, but not religious ideas.

I like to say that the important difference between science and religion is that if a practicioner of science finds solid, conclusive evidence that proves the theory of relativity wrong, he'll get the Nobel Prize, whereas if a practicioner of religion find solid, conclusive evidence that a dogma of his religion is wrong, he will be excommunicated.

Science tends to applaud those who finds the errors in the scientific body of knowledge -- Copernicus, Einstein and Gödel are examples. This is why science will eventually work errors out of the system. Religion tends to treat even wild contradictions as immutable, eternal truths, and effectively resist refinements to their dogma for centuries or millennia.
Logged

Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
Valaggar
Guest


Email
Re: Respect my ass
« Reply #99 on: August 06, 2007, 12:17:37 pm »

That's because science and religion are very different things with very different aims.
Science starts from what can be perceived and tries to find truths; religion starts from truth/what is assumed as truth (being assumed as divine revelation or another sort of absolute revelation) and provides a way of life based on said truths.

Thus, what is today assumed as truth in science can tomorrow change. Religious truths are absolute within the context of the respective religion - and even wild contradictions can be assumed as true because an entity can be imagined which is above the laws of logic and can warp their functionality.
And if you cease believing in certain points of a specific religion, you've already excommunicated yourself in fact; you're basically creating another religion based on your former religion.
Logged
Elvish Pillager
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 625



View Profile
Re: Respect my ass
« Reply #100 on: August 06, 2007, 02:38:49 pm »

Also, don't ever use a Mental Disability as something that can make you "Happy." My mother works at a special needs school as a teaching assistant, and it is not true happiness, what you have just said there is sans politeness to people who do suffer from such disabilities, yes it does make them seem "optimistic" but let me tell you, they can also be wraught with sadness aswell.
On the contrary, I would suggest that you not try to go around telling people what examples they may and may not use, especially since you are being reactive rather than reasoning: I would have no problem with you disputing the accuracy of Meep-Eep's statement, but to do it in this overbearing manner and without providing objective evidence is not the right way to go about it. It makes little sense to lump together all "mental disabilities", since what psychologists are willing to classify as a mental disability is rather inconsistent to say the least. You are overgeneralizing from the examples that you personally have experience with...

Also, there are a fair few high functioning Down's Syndrome sufferers, and if they were to read that, they would be very insulted (As I know a fair few as friends).
Then by all means, let them be insulted. I have no patience for people who let it get in the way of communication when they feel insulted based on a misinterpretation of what someone said. If someone made a derogatory statement about a "mental disability" I had, then I would be no more irritated than I always am when someone makes a technically incorrect statement. Besides, Meep-Eep's statement is neither derogatory nor technically incorrect. (Note that I am not specifying at this time whether or not I have any "mental disability", Down's syndrome or otherwise.)
Logged

My team of four Androsynth and three Chmmr is the most unfair team ever!
My mod
meep-eep
Forum Admin
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2847



View Profile
Re: Respect my ass
« Reply #101 on: August 06, 2007, 02:44:27 pm »

2 Don't say this then. Because it's clear that you don't know what you're talking about here.
Learn to quote. I've got no idea what you are refering to.

Quote
You used Down's Syndrome as a derogative statement though, did you not say that "if being happy is all what you want in your life to be about then living in a fantasy world is the way to go"? After which you use examples.
If by "derogative" you mean that I consider it better not to have Down's syndrome than to do, then you're absolutely right. What is your point?

Quote
3 Likewise, theories are just that right now, theories. They can't be proven yet.

3 Oh wait, did we just go full circle here?
No, it's just you repeating yourself. You're not actually responding to my arguments.

Logged

“When Juffo-Wup is complete
when at last there is no Void, no Non
when the Creators return
then we can finally rest.”
Resh Aleph
*Smell* controller
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 319


Rottem Tomatoes


View Profile
Re: Respect my ass
« Reply #102 on: August 06, 2007, 03:05:06 pm »

Woohoo, religion thread! Cheesy

3 My point is that to have faith in a theory that can't be proven can be seen as much folly as being religious, because neither can be proved hence forth neither should be followed without taking it with a pinch of salt.
Exactly, which is why no-one in their right mind believes (in the religious way) in theories hypotheses . I am sure even the people who devise string theories realize they might be wrong.

3 Likewise, theories are just that right now, theories. They can't be proven yet.
Yes, but they can be proven or disproven sometime.

In science philosophy, what you can't possibly prove or disprove, is even less valid than what has already been disproven.
Logged

Marines on Maulers and limpets on Earthlings  /  Bright Podship plasma and warm Kohr-Ah death rings  /
Shofixti Scouts doing gravity whips  /  These are a few of my favorite ships!
       © meep-eep
Neonlare
*Smell* controller
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 277


Nut Case for Star Control


View Profile
Re: Respect my ass
« Reply #103 on: August 06, 2007, 06:52:55 pm »

2 Don't say this then. Because it's clear that you don't know what you're talking about here.
Learn to quote. I've got no idea what you are refering to.

Alright, here goes.

You used Down's Syndrome as a derogative statement though, did you not say that "if being happy is all what you want in your life to be about then living in a fantasy world is the way to go"? After which you use examples.
If by "derogative" you mean that I consider it better not to have Down's syndrome than to do, then you're absolutely right. What is your point?

Wrong, the fact that you coupled it with psychotropic drugs made it seem that you were comparing it with that, which isn't the same because you can't choose to have Down's syndrome.

Quote
3 Likewise, theories are just that right now, theories. They can't be proven yet.

3 Oh wait, did we just go full circle here?
No, it's just you repeating yourself. You're not actually responding to my arguments.

Because there is no argument in the first place because there is no conclusive evidence of God not existing or existing, like I said, no amount of discussion on these boards will ever change that. Besides, you ignored my posts about the beneficial effects of Religion (altruism, etc) and Outer Body Experiences.

The major reason why I personally believe that the concept of God is beneficial, is that Humans have something to humble themselves to. Without the concept of a being that is higher than you, power would be the alternative "religion" anyone who had power would as such have no consequence to use it for his own will. With the ideas of a God that will punish you for your sins, people who might behave like this won't due to said force.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2007, 06:55:30 pm by Neonlare » Logged

"would newton's law theory actually work if a Chmmr Avatar did a backwards pelvic thrust towards a planet and would this constitute an X=Y-0 in the part it ran straight into a Supox Blade and lasted long enough to survive?" - Elerium (as Valaggar)
Resh Aleph
*Smell* controller
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 319


Rottem Tomatoes


View Profile
Re: Respect my ass
« Reply #104 on: August 07, 2007, 05:18:34 am »

Because there is no argument in the first place because there is no conclusive evidence of God not existing or existing, like I said, no amount of discussion on these boards will ever change that.

But there's no need for evidence of God not existing, for the same reason there's no need for evidence that flying tomatoes or Remultap the Fashionably Excellent Djinn do not exist: because there's no reason to believe they do exist in the first place.

Also, how do you disprove God's existence? I think a true believer would argue it's impossible to do so (which brings us back to the last point of my last message).

Quote
The major reason why I personally believe that the concept of God is beneficial, is that Humans have something to humble themselves to. Without the concept of a being that is higher than you, power would be the alternative "religion" anyone who had power would as such have no consequence to use it for his own will. With the ideas of a God that will punish you for your sins, people who might behave like this won't due to said force.

That didn't prevent priests from molesting children. And what about Islamists who think their purpose in life is killing people? My point is, there are moral and immoral people on both sides. There's no proof that religious people behave better than secular ones.
Logged

Marines on Maulers and limpets on Earthlings  /  Bright Podship plasma and warm Kohr-Ah death rings  /
Shofixti Scouts doing gravity whips  /  These are a few of my favorite ships!
       © meep-eep
Pages: 1 ... 5 6 [7] 8 9 ... 11 Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!