The Ur-Quan Masters Home Page Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
August 18, 2022, 10:24:04 pm
Home Help Search Login Register
News: Paul & Fred have reached a settlement with Stardock!

+  The Ur-Quan Masters Discussion Forum
|-+  The Ur-Quan Masters Re-Release
| |-+  Starbase Café (Moderator: Death 999)
| | |-+  Ship design revealed
« previous next »
Pages: 1 [2] 3 Print
Author Topic: Ship design revealed  (Read 7433 times)
Kaelos
Zebranky food
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 11


*twitchtwitch* Fear the blinky!


View Profile
Re: Ship design revealed
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2007, 03:22:11 pm »

It occurs to Kaelos that the first ship looks sort've like an inverted U-Ship from Tyrian. And its Sonic Wave cannon is also a lot like something from Tyrian. Coincidence? Or is there another Tyrian fan here? Azn
Logged
guesst
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 692


Ancient Shofixti Warrior


View Profile WWW
Re: Ship design revealed
« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2007, 03:19:22 am »

Somthing I noticed. Just like the original star control ships, my own designs, Sargon's here, Arne's,  most of the ships in the TimeWarp project, even most commercial sci fi games and movies .. Why is there such a trend for artists to use symmetrical designs? Of course there are exceptions but it seems far more common for bilatteral equality. I've tried to draw assymetric ships but just can't seem to achieve much satisfaction within my own work.

Ship (and alien) design are largely influenced by what looks good and what people can relate to. Not only are most of them symetrical, but it's usually pretty easy to tell which way is forward. Take some of the ships and ask yourself if they'd make as much sense if front were back.

You've discovered something in attempting the make an asymetrical ship look good, it's hard to do. Try this, make a symetrical design and the modify it. If it's got 2 engines, cut one off. Add shielding to one side, but not the other.

Here's something else to think about. How many alien designs have eyes? An alien could be born in the cold of space, light years from any source of solar radiation, and they'll have eyeballs. Why do we assume that every alien out there sees the universe the way we do. And what about aliens with hands? Oh, sure they're long or squat or pointed and tenticle-like, but somehow we assume that this design of multiple digits at the end of an apendage is the most efficent method of manipulation. And it may be, but Darwin would insist that on another world, with different evolutionary influences, that other methods would have been devised or perhaps the whole effort of manipulating their environment could have been abandoned as a waste of evolutioary time. And why is every alien out there  made of meat?

There's only one that would account for all these developmental similarities, and that's intelegent design. Which makes sense since a fictional universe must be designed, but then these fictional universes often try to be godless, which makes no sense. IMHO designing a godless universe is a bit like growing a bag of dorritos.
Logged

A new game and it's code each week. Please visit Cymon's Games
Sargon
*Many bubbles*
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 129



View Profile
Re: Ship design revealed
« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2007, 12:00:40 pm »

Somthing I noticed. Just like the original star control ships, my own designs, Sargon's here, Arne's,  most of the ships in the TimeWarp project, even most commercial sci fi games and movies .. Why is there such a trend for artists to use symmetrical designs? Of course there are exceptions but it seems far more common for bilatteral equality. I've tried to draw assymetric ships but just can't seem to achieve much satisfaction within my own work.

Ship (and alien) design are largely influenced by what looks good and what people can relate to. Not only are most of them symetrical, but it's usually pretty easy to tell which way is forward. Take some of the ships and ask yourself if they'd make as much sense if front were back.

You've discovered something in attempting the make an asymetrical ship look good, it's hard to do. Try this, make a symetrical design and the modify it. If it's got 2 engines, cut one off. Add shielding to one side, but not the other.

Here's something else to think about. How many alien designs have eyes? An alien could be born in the cold of space, light years from any source of solar radiation, and they'll have eyeballs. Why do we assume that every alien out there sees the universe the way we do. And what about aliens with hands? Oh, sure they're long or squat or pointed and tenticle-like, but somehow we assume that this design of multiple digits at the end of an apendage is the most efficent method of manipulation. And it may be, but Darwin would insist that on another world, with different evolutionary influences, that other methods would have been devised or perhaps the whole effort of manipulating their environment could have been abandoned as a waste of evolutioary time. And why is every alien out there  made of meat?

There's only one that would account for all these developmental similarities, and that's intelegent design. Which makes sense since a fictional universe must be designed, but then these fictional universes often try to be godless, which makes no sense. IMHO designing a godless universe is a bit like growing a bag of dorritos.
Well you can think of aliens that are completly different then all life forms on planet earth.
But then, if they are completly different then us, it is more likely that their reality is completly different then ours.
Perhaps they live on another dimension and to us they look like just flashing lights that appear some place that dont make any sense to us. But then, if they live in a such distinct reality then ours, it is also likely they are less capabale of communicating and manipulating our reality the same way we do.
So our reality, our physics law are the limitations to what life forms can evolve on this reality.
Can you think of some rocks manipulating the environment using telepathy? Yea it is possible to imagine, but is it propabble by the physics laws of our universe? probabbly not. In other dimensions perhaps it is, but not in our reality.
Logged
Sargon
*Many bubbles*
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 129



View Profile
Re: Ship design revealed
« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2007, 12:03:18 pm »

It occurs to Kaelos that the first ship looks sort've like an inverted U-Ship from Tyrian. And its Sonic Wave cannon is also a lot like something from Tyrian. Coincidence? Or is there another Tyrian fan here? Azn
I have never heard of this game before you have mentions it, but it just shows that there are different degrees of creativity. You can create something completly creative, but it will look bizzare and perhaps unpleasing to the eye. Or you can create stuff that have certain similaritis in the design concept to other stuff, but also have some degree of freedom in creativity.
Logged
RTyp06
*Smell* controller
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 491



View Profile
Re: Ship design revealed
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2007, 10:27:58 pm »

Thanx for the tips guesst. The meat link was enjoyable. Kinda makes you think from several different perspectives.

I probably wouldn't even attempt to try drawing Aliens as I'm more mechanically  minded anyaway. The ships I did were to mod the dated Starcontrol Online project which turned out pretty good. One of these days I'll .jpg and upload them so people can check em out.
Logged
Resh Aleph
*Smell* controller
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 319


Rottem Tomatoes


View Profile
Re: Ship design revealed
« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2007, 12:07:35 pm »

Here's something else to think about. How many alien designs have eyes? An alien could be born in the cold of space, light years from any source of solar radiation, and they'll have eyeballs. Why do we assume that every alien out there sees the universe the way we do. And what about aliens with hands? Oh, sure they're long or squat or pointed and tenticle-like, but somehow we assume that this design of multiple digits at the end of an apendage is the most efficent method of manipulation. And it may be, but Darwin would insist that on another world, with different evolutionary influences, that other methods would have been devised or perhaps the whole effort of manipulating their environment could have been abandoned as a waste of evolutioary time. And why is every alien out there  made of meat?
I don't think we're that special.

  • Evolution on Earth has proven that sensing electromagnetic energy is a great (the best?) way to perceive things, so it seems very likely that aliens would have eyes of some sort.
  • Fingers have been proven to be a great (the best?) way to manipulate stuff. Earth shows that great inteliigence goes hand-in-hand with tool usage.
  • The idea of non-water lifeforms seems either too stable (metal) or too unstable (gas/energy) to be very likely.

I realize that life could develop under strange, unearthly conditions, but don't we all share the same laws of physics?

Quote
... but then these fictional universes often try to be godless, which makes no sense. IMHO designing a godless universe is a bit like growing a bag of dorritos.
I'm confused. What do gods have to do with anything? Huh
Logged

Marines on Maulers and limpets on Earthlings  /  Bright Podship plasma and warm Kohr-Ah death rings  /
Shofixti Scouts doing gravity whips  /  These are a few of my favorite ships!
       © meep-eep
guesst
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 692


Ancient Shofixti Warrior


View Profile WWW
Re: Ship design revealed
« Reply #21 on: July 23, 2007, 04:03:19 pm »

I realize that life could develop under strange, unearthly conditions, but don't we all share the same laws of physics?
Are you sure about that? You assume that the laws of physics, as we've observed them, remain constant when you get away from the radiation and speciffic gravity of our own yellow sun. But have you ever been out there. Do you know, for sure, that is the case?

Your list of "proven" evolutionary factiods, esp about eyes and hands, also assumes that evolution had the opportunity to try every alternitive along the way. Just because the way we['ve evolved does the job doesn't mean it's great or even the best. We make it work pretty good, but you're assuming that some other system doesn't exist that could do it better. Just because it's not here on our limited sphere doesn't mean it's not out there in the infinite expanse.

You've done quite a bit of assuming there. You know what happens when you assume? Spell it out. You make an "ass" out of "u" and "me".

Quote
Quote
... but then these fictional universes often try to be godless, which makes no sense. IMHO designing a godless universe is a bit like growing a bag of dorritos.
I'm confused. What do gods have to do with anything? Huh
Pretty sure I explained the argument well enough. But for you, nevermind. Just forget I said anything.
Logged

A new game and it's code each week. Please visit Cymon's Games
Lukipela
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3619


The Ancient One


View Profile
Re: Ship design revealed
« Reply #22 on: July 23, 2007, 04:20:17 pm »

Just to back guesst up here, there are plenty of examples of creatures who don't see in our spectrum (or at all) and don't use digits right here on our world. Even though the same general laws of physics would appear to be valid in the whole universe, that doesn't mean the same evolutionary path needs to be followed all the time, nor that we are the optimal product. There migh tbe better solutions out there, and at any rate there ought to be very different ones.
Logged

What's up doc?
Amiga_Nut
*Many bubbles*
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 208



View Profile
Re: Ship design revealed
« Reply #23 on: July 24, 2007, 05:21:21 am »

http://burntelectrons.org/media/TheyreMadeOutOfMeat.mp3

Meat Audio Tongue
Logged

I keep my old Amiga on a flash-drive. Tongue

Bluhman
Zebranky food
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 31



View Profile
Re: Ship design revealed
« Reply #24 on: July 24, 2007, 06:02:47 am »

Quote
... but then these fictional universes often try to be godless, which makes no sense. IMHO designing a godless universe is a bit like growing a bag of dorritos.
I'm confused. What do gods have to do with anything? Huh
Pretty sure I explained the argument well enough. But for you, nevermind. Just forget I said anything.
I don't get it either, okay? You really didn't explain it enough.

I mean, seriously. I'm just looking at your post and I'm like, "... Wha? What do you mean 'godless'? I mean, there's no definite proof that there's a god that watches over us, but of course, we couldn't have appeared here without explanation or reason, could we? Are you talking about the religion of alien races? Because if that's the case, there's plenty of aliens that have Gods. No proof they exist, but they're believed in. So what are you talking about with this whole 'godless' thing and saying most fictional universes are 'godless', when I can clearly think of several gods in Science Fiction that are in different universes? Am I over thinking this? Will my brain explo- *BOOOOOM*"

So, uh, yeah. I definitely agree with the rest of your ideals (Except for your newbie bashing. Come on.), I just don't understand your whole 'Godless' thing.
Logged
Resh Aleph
*Smell* controller
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 319


Rottem Tomatoes


View Profile
Re: Ship design revealed
« Reply #25 on: July 24, 2007, 09:34:38 am »

I realize that life could develop under strange, unearthly conditions, but don't we all share the same laws of physics?
Are you sure about that? You assume that the laws of physics, as we've observed them, remain constant when you get away from the radiation and speciffic gravity of our own yellow sun. But have you ever been out there. Do you know, for sure, that is the case?
I'm not sure about anything, but as far as I understand, observations of the rest of the universe show that it obeys the same physical laws.

Quote
Your list of "proven" evolutionary factiods, esp about eyes and hands, also assumes that evolution had the opportunity to try every alternitive along the way. Just because the way we['ve evolved does the job doesn't mean it's great or even the best. We make it work pretty good, but you're assuming that some other system doesn't exist that could do it better. Just because it's not here on our limited sphere doesn't mean it's not out there in the infinite expanse.
Well, by definition of evolution, only the best, most adaptive solutions survive. That is why eyesight and fingers must be the most elegant tools for the job. And I think the need to see and to manipulate things, at least by sentient water-based beings, is pretty universal.

Look, I'm not saying that what you suggest is impossible, who knows what's out there? I'm just saying that in my view, Earth-like life doesn't seem that improbable.

Quote
But for you, nevermind. Just forget I said anything.
That's a nice way to say "you're an idiot". Angry Refer to Bluhman's post.
Logged

Marines on Maulers and limpets on Earthlings  /  Bright Podship plasma and warm Kohr-Ah death rings  /
Shofixti Scouts doing gravity whips  /  These are a few of my favorite ships!
       © meep-eep
Lukipela
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3619


The Ancient One


View Profile
Re: Ship design revealed
« Reply #26 on: July 24, 2007, 01:22:57 pm »

I mean, seriously. I'm just looking at your post and I'm like, "... Wha? What do you mean 'godless'? I mean, there's no definite proof that there's a god that watches over us, but of course, we couldn't have appeared here without explanation or reason, could we? Are you talking about the religion of alien races? Because if that's the case, there's plenty of aliens that have Gods. No proof they exist, but they're believed in. So what are you talking about with this whole 'godless' thing and saying most fictional universes are 'godless', when I can clearly think of several gods in Science Fiction that are in different universes? Am I over thinking this? Will my brain explo- *BOOOOOM*"

I think your overthinking it. He's simply saying that Intelligent design becomes a much more viable explanation if it turns out aliens all around the world share a very similar design to us (Star Trek for instance). then he points out how ironic that is, as most sci-fi universes are godless, even though they support the theory for intelligent design. I mean, if you travelled to the far reaches of the universe and only discovered loads of parallell earths, with the odd facially deformed humanoid thrown in, wouldn't you start considering the possibility of one god above it all? Also note that he said most, not all sci-fi. While I don't pretend to be some sort of sci-fi expert, I can easily think of more universes were a god isn't present in any tangible shape (as opposed to fantasy were gods are very plentiful), that those where one is. Of course, i may have misunderstood, but that's how I read it.

Quote
Well, by definition of evolution, only the best, most adaptive solutions survive. That is why eyesight and fingers must be the most elegant tools for the job. And I think the need to see and to manipulate things, at least by sentient water-based beings, is pretty universal.

Adapted for their current circumstances. Dinosaurs were pretty brilliantly adapted until they all died. Cockroaches will probably be laughing at your "peak of evolution" long after we bombard ourselves out of this world. What i'm saying is, your definition of the most elegant tool is only valid in our conditions. Like i said earlier, plenty of things on Earth use neither. What's to say that in the dark dank caverns of Epsilon II there aren't some sort of silica based crawlers that have no use for sight (no light), and that utilize tentacles for hunting (longer reach). They might even have an entire civilisation based around texture communication or something. Obviously unlikely, but I'm just trying to make the point that bipedal with eyes and four limbs isn't neccessarily the best design everywhere.
Logged

What's up doc?
Resh Aleph
*Smell* controller
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 319


Rottem Tomatoes


View Profile
Re: Ship design revealed
« Reply #27 on: July 24, 2007, 05:00:56 pm »

then he points out how ironic that is, as most sci-fi universes are godless, even though they support the theory for intelligent design.
That makes perfect sense to me. I'd expect religion to be gone by the time faster-than-light travel is achieved. Cheesy

Quote
What's to say that in the dark dank caverns of Epsilon II there aren't some sort of silica based crawlers that have no use for sight (no light), and that utilize tentacles for hunting (longer reach). They might even have an entire civilisation based around texture communication or something. Obviously unlikely, but I'm just trying to make the point that bipedal with eyes and four limbs isn't neccessarily the best design everywhere.
Again, I'm not saying it's not possible and that all aliens must be humanoid. I find the alien design in Star Trek silly myself. Tongue I'm just saying that eyes and fingers aren't that "earthly" in my opinion.

But none of us have any proof, so this is pretty pointless. Also, we're horribly off-topic. Tongue
Logged

Marines on Maulers and limpets on Earthlings  /  Bright Podship plasma and warm Kohr-Ah death rings  /
Shofixti Scouts doing gravity whips  /  These are a few of my favorite ships!
       © meep-eep
Lukipela
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3619


The Ancient One


View Profile
Re: Ship design revealed
« Reply #28 on: July 24, 2007, 05:29:13 pm »

That makes perfect sense to me. I'd expect religion to be gone by the time faster-than-light travel is achieved. Cheesy

Because travelling gods creation to spread the word of his glory is definitely going to kill off all religions?

Quote
But none of us have any proof, so this is pretty pointless. Also, we're horribly off-topic. Tongue

Nope, but then this is a purely theoretical discussion. Well see.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2007, 06:16:55 pm by Lukipela » Logged

What's up doc?
guesst
Enlightened
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 692


Ancient Shofixti Warrior


View Profile WWW
Re: Ship design revealed
« Reply #29 on: July 24, 2007, 06:11:24 pm »

Godless-ness in a fictional Universe

Let me spell it out. Regardless of your belief system in this universe, or the belief system of any authors in the past, the attempt to make a fictional universe that is purely scientific, IE godless, is folly. Posit: any universe that is fictional is intellegently designed Ergo the author is god. Ergo the fictional universe has, by default, a diety. Whether the characters in the fiction recognize this or not, any assertion by the author, outside of the work itself, to discredit god in their fiction is impossible. They are, in essence, denying themselves.

Yeah, we're off topic bad.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2007, 06:18:16 pm by guesst » Logged

A new game and it's code each week. Please visit Cymon's Games
Pages: 1 [2] 3 Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!