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Author Topic: stupid argument  (Read 16417 times)
Deus Siddis
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Re: stupid argument
« Reply #60 on: July 18, 2007, 08:07:51 am »

Shiver
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I think his arguments are shit, his attitude is arrogant beyond belief and the way he mixes snotty little remarks into nearly every "factual"  post he makes is completely under-handed. Of course I'm not going to "play fair" or whatever you're telling me to do.

Okay Shiver, albeit not to me, you have shared what you really think of me based on what you have seen me post on this forum. So let me be frank in trying to explain some of what you may have missed or misinterpreted.

My arguments might be wrong or just not make sense to you, but if I am being serious then they are well thought out from my perspective. I don't post them unless I believe them, take that for what you will.

The vast majority of those 'snotty little remarks', if you are refering to my attempts at humor at a whole, are not meant to be insulting. Just semi comical (and not to everyone). Often discussions on internet forums are way to serious given how ultimately pointless they are. We are not exactly writing the next chapter in world history here, so what are a few jokes going to harm? Of course, when I feel I have been provoked, I can be genuinely insulting as you can see on this thread, if in a snotty or humorous sort of way (depending on what you want to call it).

Finally, I am not arrogant. I don't really like myself and don't think I would have much to be arrogant about.


Now I think I should be frank in what I think of you, be it correct or false. To put it plainly with a popular american metaphor, I think you're just an ass hole. You jump down people's throats when they haven't done anything to you. Not just with me as I thought originally and not with any predictable provocation. Your critisms and opinions seem biased and you don't offer much to support them, which makes it hard to understand where you are coming from on anything. I am honestly glad that I know you only through this forum and not in real life.

So that is what I think, no jokes, just what I really think. I only say this because you seem to have some sort of vendette against me and were finally frank about your opinions on this subject.
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Deus Siddis
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Re: stupid argument
« Reply #61 on: July 18, 2007, 08:15:00 am »

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If you don't think the discussion has anything to give you, there is no onus to participate Deus. And discussion doesn't need to be about giving an inch. It can equally well be about learning how other people think, and how they believe. You don't have to change your mind to have a good discussion, you just have to learn new things.

True, but sometimes you actually learn more about what people believe when the discussion's illusion of civility has quickly vaporized. Smiley

(Not always, just sometimes.)
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Lukipela
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Re: stupid argument
« Reply #62 on: July 18, 2007, 08:17:07 am »

That's actually one point where you and RTyp06 manage to make the same mistake Deus. From what I've discussed with him, he also simply attempts to make jokes in his posts. Unfortunately, they come out (at least to me) as overbearing and arrogant at times, which makes the discussion that much harder to follow. Humour is a tricky thing on the internet, where we have no intonation, no gestures, nothing but simple text. And when you discuss things that are important to people, they tend to snap more easily, at real and poerceived insults. Of course, it's an everlasting debate wether humour should be marked more clearly, or wether people should just grow thicker skin. But it might be good to keep in mind that sometimes people will ignore your arguments not because of what you say, but because of the way you present it. It's silly, but such is human nature. If you want to make a good point, consider how you phrase it.

RE civility and dissolution.

Not really. When that goes all you see are base instincts. You don't learn how or why or what they believe, simply how they react. And most of us react exactly the same way, it's just what we're wired for.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2007, 08:19:07 am by Lukipela » Logged

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Shiver
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Re: stupid argument
« Reply #63 on: July 18, 2007, 08:27:16 am »

Of course not. Instead you are just going to complain and complain and complain and... err.. what's the ultimate goal you're aiming for here? I forget. The utwig voices was it?

I was sticking up for a newbie with 10 posts, something you should be able to relate to. Both Nutty Buddy and Deus_Siddis did their part to derail the thread, but by my estimation Nutty Buddy isn't one to go around unnerving people all the time. If a month from now she's causing endless havok, you can call me out on being wrong about her.

Quote from: Deus_Siddis
...

I'm wasn't attacking you just for the fun of it as you can see above and I do make "normal" posts most of the time. From prior experience I've decided that expending the effort to write long thought out replies to you is not worth the trouble. I will say that you should be less focused on me and more on why a discussion you were having with someone unfamiliar with you erupted into a flame war.
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Lukipela
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Re: stupid argument
« Reply #64 on: July 18, 2007, 08:37:46 am »

I was sticking up for a newbie with 10 posts, something you should be able to relate to. Both Nutty Buddy and Deus_Siddis did their part to derail the thread, but by my estimation Nutty Buddy isn't one to go around unnerving people all the time. If a month from now she's causing endless havok, you can call me out on being wrong about her.

As I've been saying, it's not just what you do, it's how you do it. If you had said something along the lines of "Nutty mixed up but don't be such a douche, it happens to the best of us", the thread would have likely taken another turn. Instead you simply posted an ad hominem on Deus, ignoring the argument and focusing on his character. What did you expect him to do?

Being new doesn't mean that you get to ignore logic and flame away. It makes it more understandable, but that's about it. Nor does it mean that you need a knight in shining armour to do so for you.
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Re: stupid argument
« Reply #65 on: July 18, 2007, 08:58:43 am »

I was sticking up for a newbie with 10 posts, something you should be able to relate to. Both Nutty Buddy and Deus_Siddis did their part to derail the thread, but by my estimation Nutty Buddy isn't one to go around unnerving people all the time. If a month from now she's causing endless havok, you can call me out on being wrong about her.

As I've been saying, it's not just what you do, it's how you do it. If you had said something along the lines of "Nutty mixed up but don't be such a douche, it happens to the best of us", the thread would have likely taken another turn. Instead you simply posted an ad hominem on Deus, ignoring the argument and focusing on his character. What did you expect him to do?

I don't see a problem with him flaming me back, was I complaining about it previously?

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Being new doesn't mean that you get to ignore logic and flame away. It makes it more understandable, but that's about it. Nor does it mean that you need a knight in shining armour to do so for you.

That's swell, but I find your argument that people should never, ever trash talk each other under any circumstance to be uncompelling. Turn into a moderator or make a vastly better argument if you're going to try and impose your standards of conduct upon the rest of us. People get pissed off once in a while Lukipela, it's not realistic to tell us we can't act upon that.
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Lukipela
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Re: stupid argument
« Reply #66 on: July 18, 2007, 09:10:04 am »

I don't see a problem with him flaming me back, was I complaining about it previously?

You mean except further derailing a thread that was pretty close to total derailment anyway? No, no problem at all, if you prefer complaining about peoples behaviour and flaming them to talking about the actual subject.

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That's swell, but I find your argument that people should never, ever trash talk each other under any circumstance to be uncompelling.

That is too bad, but at least I made an argument.

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Turn into a moderator or make a vastly better argument if you're going to try and impose your standards of conduct upon the rest of us.

I'm not trying to impose any standards on you, nor do I have the ability to do so. I'm simply sharing my opinion on the mattter, which is that pointless flaming does no good, and that cursing and trash-talking is a meaningless waste of time which impedes my enjoyment of these topics. I find it interesting that when I share my opinion, I am backseat moderating or trying to impose myself. However, when you share you're opinion, you are not. Perhaps you should stop imposing your standard of valiant flaming on those of us who prefer other types of discourse?

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People get pissed off once in a while Lukipela, it's not realistic to tell us we can't act upon that.

It is on the internet. There is no reason you have to make a reply immideatly, when you are angry and your judgement is clouded. you can just as well take a break, think about things, and reply later with a cool head. There's no hurry on a meassageboard. that's why I enjoy it.

EDIT: Also, this topic is amazingly well named.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2007, 09:12:53 am by Lukipela » Logged

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Shiver
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Re: stupid argument
« Reply #67 on: July 18, 2007, 09:19:51 am »

I find it interesting that when I share my opinion, I am backseat moderating or trying to impose myself. However, when you share you're opinion, you are not. Perhaps you should stop imposing your standard of valiant flaming on those of us who prefer other types of discourse?

You've made many different arguments as well as characterizations of me with varying amounts of accuracy, but this is completely off base. I'm not telling anyone what they should be doing. Not even Deus_Siddis. In essence, you are doing this with an alarming frequency. Something does not need to be phrased as a direct military order for it to be an attempt at controlling others. At the very least you will probably agree with me that you somewhat of a control freak.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2007, 09:21:38 am by Shiver » Logged
Lukipela
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Re: stupid argument
« Reply #68 on: July 18, 2007, 09:28:38 am »

You've made many different arguments as well as characterizations of me with varying amounts of accuracy, but this is completely off base. I'm not telling anyone what they should be doing. Not even Deus_Siddis.

Where in my post am I implying that you are telling anyone what to do? I simply stated that you share your opinions (In this case on Deus) and that this is fine, whereas when i share my opinions (in this case on posting in general), i am trying to impose my preferences on you.

[quote}
In essence, you are doing this with an alarming frequency.
[/quote]

I have been taking the position that flaming and so forth is unnecessary and a waste of time. At no time have I instructed anyone to cease and desist (nor can I really). In fact, the only one I see who takes it this way is you. If you want to be really picky, I did make one suggestion that we try to return to the topic at hand. If that is an alarming amount of telling people what to do to you, then so be it.

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Something does not need to be phrased as a direct military order for it to be an attempt at controlling others.

Indeed. One way of influencing others would be to viciously flame them every time they behave in a fashion you don't approve of.

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Shiver
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Re: stupid argument
« Reply #69 on: July 18, 2007, 09:33:30 am »

Where in my post am I implying that you are telling anyone what to do?

Right here:

"I find it interesting that when I share my opinion, I am backseat moderating or trying to impose myself. However, when you share you're opinion, you are not. Perhaps you should stop imposing your standard of valiant flaming on those of us who prefer other types of discourse?"

Seems pretty clear cut to me.
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Lukipela
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Re: stupid argument
« Reply #70 on: July 18, 2007, 09:38:51 am »

Right here:

"I find it interesting that when I share my opinion, I am backseat moderating or trying to impose myself. However, when you share you're opinion, you are not. Perhaps you should stop imposing your standard of valiant flaming on those of us who prefer other types of discourse?"

Seems pretty clear cut to me.

That was a rethorical  reply to:

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Turn into a moderator or make a vastly better argument if you're going to try and impose your standards of conduct upon the rest of us.

If you accuse me of trying to impose a standard you don't like, surely I'm allowed to accuse  you of  imposing a standard I don't like? So either you are telling people what to do (me, by telling me not to impose standards), or I'm not (by telling you not to impose standards). Take your pick.

Also, even if we accept the premise that I was trying to boss you around (which certianly wasn't my intention), alarming tendency = one time?
« Last Edit: July 18, 2007, 09:40:30 am by Lukipela » Logged

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Nutty Buddy
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Re: stupid argument
« Reply #71 on: July 18, 2007, 09:43:22 am »

I am so embarassed - I shouldn't have lost my cool.

He got pissy because I said "I feel stupid for even replying to these quotes..."

I meant no harm to what Deus said.  It was a "stupid" argument, so I felt stupid replying. My only reason really for replying at all was because he said he didn't know what a god was and said that the "how", of how we got here, had been determined. (that's how I interpreted what he was saying at the time, but looking back I'm thinking it could be read differently. I'm still not clear on that point.)

Then I get poo flung at me.
So I fling back. (I'm sorry  to say that my poo flinging didn't meet up to everyones standards.)
Should I have thrown my poo back handed?
« Last Edit: July 18, 2007, 09:47:39 am by Nutty Buddy » Logged
Shiver
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Re: stupid argument
« Reply #72 on: July 18, 2007, 09:45:39 am »

If you accuse me of trying to impose a standard you don't like, surely I'm allowed to accuse  you of  imposing a standard I don't like? So either you are telling people what to do (me, by telling me not to impose standards), or I'm not (by telling you not to impose standards). Take your pick.

That's right. For the last few posts I have been saying you're far too overbearing. I am telling you to back off, give me a break, etc. You do this to everyone, myself in particular. I find it intrusive and rude, just as you have a problem with my sometimes cruel approach to things. However, I have not insulted you once (or have I?) over the course of the argument we are having. I opt to try not to direct people, but am making an exception for you. I would like to reach a consensus with you on this.

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Should I have thrown my poo back handed?

I don't know. We're all covered in shit. Get a sponge and start scrubbing, I guess.
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Sargon
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Re: stupid argument
« Reply #73 on: July 18, 2007, 09:46:52 am »

Is this thread still discussing religion?
I also thought of the argument that no one actually knows what is god, so you can't believe in something you don't know what it is. It might be just anything, which means you don't believe in any particular thing.
But then religious people seem to be able to tell me what exactly is their god, well they were telling alot of things about him and I found it hard to argue that they don't know what is god.
The main thing that religion is trying to deal with is explainning the unknown.
Now, I don't believe in god, but I do believe in the unknown.
I believe that there are things in this world that exist in some manner, but the human race will never be able to understand. Many people call it god, but I just say it is futile to try to explain it in any way, because it is beyond our intelligence.
Actually calling it god is giving an explaination in human terms to what cannot be expressed in human terms, and therefore it must be false.
Why do I believe in the unkown? Some because of the second theorm of gedel, and also because of personal experience.
Well, I hope I wont offend anyone with this post.

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Lukipela
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Re: stupid argument
« Reply #74 on: July 18, 2007, 09:51:45 am »

I am so embarassed - I shouldn't have lost my cool.

Don't worry about it, it happens to the best of us. And Deus can be very annoying, his jokes tend to go a bit astray at times.

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He got pissy because I said "I feel stupid for even replying to these quotes..."

And you got pissy because of the sunday School comment. Misunderstandings can cause a lot of friction, especially when people take things too seriously or personally.

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I meant no harm to what Deus said.  It was a "stupid" argument, so I felt stupid replying. My only reason really for replying at all was because he said he didn't know what a god was and said that the "how", of how we got here, had been determined. (that's how I interpreted what he was saying at the time, but looking back I'm thinking it could be read differently. I'm still not clear on that point.)

I've always felt that people demanding to have proper scientific determinations for gods, emotions and suchlike partly misunderstand the debate. These things lie mostly on an emotional plane, and can be very different for different people. Blindly following a lexicon will only tell you what is generally agreed upon, not what the person you are tlaking to thinks.

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Then I get poo flung at me.
So I fling back. (I'm sorry  to say that my poo flinging didn't meet up to everyones standards.)
Should I have thrown my poo back handed?

I'm not going to get into shoulds here, because then Shiver will be breathing down my neck pretty quick. I would have ignored his comment, and responded to the factual part, or just left his post unanswered. I find it helps to remember that you can take a break from this, and write your reply much later and in a better frame of mind. This also tends to be best for the conversation. On a personal level, I find poo flingning much funnier if it invloves clever witticisms or putdowns rather than just curse words. But we all do what we feel is right, and what we feel fits. And when we step out ofthe line, the moderators burn us. Of course, in between that we bicker quite a bit Wink

That's right. For the last few posts I have been saying you're far too overbearing. I am telling you to back off, give me a break, etc.

So it's alright for you to post criticisms, but when I do it I'm much too overbearing? I'm not trying to diss you in any way, I'm simply trying to understand.

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You do this to everyone, myself in particular. I find it intrusive and rude, just as you have a problem with my sometimes cruel approach to things.

You find what intrusive and rude? That i criticise flaming in a similar way that you criticise Deus brashness and annoying habits?

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However, I have not insulted you once (or have I?) over the course of the argument we are having. I opt to try not to direct people, but am making an exception for you. I would like to reach a consensus with you on this.

Certainly. If you tell me in which way I'm being overbearing that you are not, and I shall certainly endevaour to lessen that behaviour. It has never been my intention to insult you, and if you feel that I have I apologize. I don't enjoy a certain style of posting, just like you. And I speak out against it, just like you.

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Is this thread still discussing religion?
I also thought of the argument that no one actually knows what is god, so you can't believe in something you don't know what it is. It might be just anything, which means you don't believe in any particular thing.
But then religious people seem to be able to tell me what exactly is their god, well they were telling alot of things about him and I found it hard to argue that they don't know what is god.
The main thing that religion is trying to deal with is explainning the unknown.
Now, I don't believe in god, but I do believe in the unknown.
I believe that there are things in this world that exist in some manner, but the human race will never be able to understand. Many people call it god, but I just say it is futile to try to explain it in any way, because it is beyond our intelligence.
Actually calling it god is giving an explaination in human terms to what cannot be expressed in human terms, and therefore it must be false.
Why do I believe in the unkown? Some because of the second theorm of gedel, and also because of personal experience.
Well, I hope I wont offend anyone with this post.

We're partly discussing religion still. You make a good point about the unkknown. God is something that we cannot understand, and people who claim to know him too well always seem a bit suspect to me. Even though we can never hope to understand divinity, in order to comprehend anything and discuss it, we must bring it to our level.

Also, if you believe in the unknown, doesn't that make you believe in god by proxy?
« Last Edit: July 18, 2007, 10:03:13 am by Lukipela » Logged

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