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Author Topic: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!  (Read 16581 times)
Shiver
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Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
« Reply #30 on: August 16, 2007, 11:03:41 pm »

You guys are aware that the ship changes we're making are subtle, right? The Ur-Quan's fighters stopped crashing into asteroids. Oh no, better call the core team -- we're commiting blasphemy.
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Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
« Reply #31 on: August 16, 2007, 11:41:47 pm »

By the way, make sure not to miss my latest post! Wink

(It's just around the corner, on page 2.)
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Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
« Reply #32 on: August 17, 2007, 02:10:13 am »

Shiver you are really are trying to pick a fight arent you. Noone is arguing as far as I can see, just offering perspectives. I for one wont be making any judgements on any mods. I'm also looking forward to playing what ever mods you come up with. However i wont be interested in using them for any competitons that i run without some really robust debate about the merits of each change.
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Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
« Reply #33 on: August 17, 2007, 03:57:15 am »

Ha, I get to be the purist of the purists because this whole conversation just confirms my belief in the superioity of SC1 with it's well balanced ships, none of them were overpowered at all, all of them worked as a part of a team. (A-Team?) Ship cost acurately represented what you could expect when you played a game. There was a SC1 full game that pitted 6 shofixti fighters versus one Ur-Quan. It was a fair fight in the strategy of SC1's full game. (In SC2's super melee, naturally, the Ur-Quan doesn't stand a chance in that match up.)

Of course, when you take the teams apart and the ship out of their context in that team there suddenly crop up conversations about wanting to tweak SC1 ship abilities that eventually degrade into a nerdfest of funny song trivia. Plus SC2 ships could be designed without relevance to their affect in a team so you get these overpowered monsters and randomly regenerating things and suddenly ship cost becomes a nebulus thing.

That's why I still play SC1 and am hoping for the UQM team to do a remake of it.
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Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
« Reply #34 on: August 17, 2007, 12:33:56 pm »

Ha, I get to be the purist of the purists because this whole conversation just confirms my belief in the superioity of SC1 with it's well balanced ships,
SC1 ships were NOT well balanced!
none of them were overpowered at all
Uh huh. Mmrnmhrm were just as overpowered in SC1 strategic mode as they are in SC2 melee.
There was a SC1 full game that pitted 6 shofixti fighters versus one Ur-Quan. It was a fair fight in the strategy of SC1's full game. (In SC2's super melee, naturally, the Ur-Quan doesn't stand a chance in that match up.)
Naturally, I am able to utterly dominate the AI in either side of that matchup. Between human players, I daresay it would be pretty even.
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Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
« Reply #35 on: August 17, 2007, 10:17:43 pm »

Its been a while since I've posted.  Here are my thoughts (without playing the mod yet).

I think there are some minor problems with the values - However, I do believe it is an improvement over the originals.  Kudos to the work.

In regards to the topic of the Kohr-Ah and Utwig:  I believe that the earthling + yehat at 28 points is a very formidable counter to the Kohr-Ah.  As such, I do not believe that the values need tweaking until It has been shown the new values cannot compete at a cost level to the Kohr. 
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Elvish Pillager
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Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
« Reply #36 on: August 17, 2007, 10:38:50 pm »

I believe that the earthling + yehat at 28 points is a very formidable counter to the Kohr-Ah.
A far from guaranteed win at nearly the same total point cost? You're better off with Chmmr.
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Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
« Reply #37 on: August 18, 2007, 01:09:46 am »

I think you've got the right idea, SquisherX. The lower costs of many of the ships allow for an interesting array of combination-counters.

Sure, there are no guarantees. But who's to say the Yehat pilot might have a good day and take down the Korh-Ah with no help? With the original values, this wasn't really a even a possibility, as the Yehat was too prohibitively expensive to risk taking.

I think we're going to see some interesting combination experiments as a result of this.
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Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
« Reply #38 on: August 18, 2007, 01:38:45 am »

But who's to say the Yehat pilot might have a good day and take down the Korh-Ah with no help?
The guy piloting the Kohr-Ah, of course, assuming he's good enough. Tongue
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Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
« Reply #39 on: August 18, 2007, 04:46:50 pm »

Ha, I get to be the purist of the purists because this whole conversation just confirms my belief in the superioity of SC1 with it's well balanced ships,
SC1 ships were NOT well balanced!
none of them were overpowered at all
Uh huh. Mmrnmhrm were just as overpowered in SC1 strategic mode as they are in SC2 melee.
There was a SC1 full game that pitted 6 shofixti fighters versus one Ur-Quan. It was a fair fight in the strategy of SC1's full game. (In SC2's super melee, naturally, the Ur-Quan doesn't stand a chance in that match up.)
Naturally, I am able to utterly dominate the AI in either side of that matchup. Between human players, I daresay it would be pretty even.
*laf* I'm glad someone felt to tear apart my arugment.

SC1 ships weren't balanced, but SC1 teams were... mostly. Granted the Mmrnmhrm were given by pillbox dieties, but the Spathi were also surprisingly valuable for the price.

The way I judge the balance of SC1 is that i could win against the AI with either team in any given scenario. Now with two human players, well, that's the sort of thing that will have to wait until UQM-1 comes out and we get to play the game networked.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2007, 07:15:08 pm by guesst » Logged

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Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
« Reply #40 on: August 18, 2007, 05:12:46 pm »

SC1 ships weren't balanced, but SC1 teams were... mostly. Granted the Mmrnmhrm were given by pillbox dieties, but the Shofixti were also surprisingly valuable for the price.
Funny how you should mention two ships on the same team. Incidentally, the Alliance is the more overpowered team.

The way I judge the balance of SC1 is that i could win against the AI with either team in any given scenario.
Well, so could I, although the one where you only get Androsynth and Mycon against AI Arilou as the Hierarchy was awfully difficult. Other than that scenario, I could always pwn everything with Mmrnmhrm as the alliance or Ur-Quan as the hierarchy.

Considering that Ur-Quan cost lots more, and that UQM netplay has shown that Mmrnmhrm are overpowered and Ur-Quan are pretty bad, I'd say that the Alliance has even more of an advantage between human players.
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Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
« Reply #41 on: August 18, 2007, 10:31:29 pm »

Good job for making the effort to spell mmrhnmhrm properly guys! two thumbs up
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Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
« Reply #42 on: August 19, 2007, 07:12:21 pm »

SC1 ships weren't balanced, but SC1 teams were... mostly. Granted the Mmrnmhrm were given by pillbox dieties, but the Shofixti were also surprisingly valuable for the price.
Funny how you should mention two ships on the same team. Incidentally, the Alliance is the more overpowered team.
I meant Spathi! I'll fix the original post.

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Considering that Ur-Quan cost lots more, and that UQM netplay has shown that Mmrnmhrm are overpowered and Ur-Quan are pretty bad, I'd say that the Alliance has even more of an advantage between human players.
We'll never know unless someone makes UQM-1 (That's a negative 1 there). Actually I suppose we could just have a UQM tournament where it's old alliance vs old heirchy only. I wonder how that would turn out?

What scenario are you talking about with one arloo against a Mycon and Androsynth? I'm gonna have to go back and check that one out.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2007, 07:23:47 pm by guesst » Logged

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Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
« Reply #43 on: August 19, 2007, 08:25:41 pm »

Maybe I'm just utterly terrible at them, but why was the Probe's price increased? Everyone I've ever played against (a fair smattering of only three different people, admittedly) has never managed to take down a roughly equally priced ship (Melnorme, Spathi, Mmrnmhrm) with it.

I'd put their price at about 12, maybe 14. That is, unless I'm missing some immensely useful tactic or something. Which I may well be, being a mere mortal and not a Philosopher King. Wink
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Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
« Reply #44 on: August 19, 2007, 09:57:55 pm »

Maybe I'm just utterly terrible at them, but why was the Probe's price increased? Everyone I've ever played against (a fair smattering of only three different people, admittedly) has never managed to take down a roughly equally priced ship (Melnorme, Spathi, Mmrnmhrm) with it.

I'd put their price at about 12, maybe 14. That is, unless I'm missing some immensely useful tactic or something. Which I may well be, being a mere mortal and not a Philosopher King. Wink

Slylandro regularly flattens Melnorme and Spathi between decent players and is an all around terror to play against in general.
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