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Author Topic: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!  (Read 16594 times)
Elvish Pillager
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Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
« Reply #60 on: October 29, 2007, 12:18:06 am »

...when we played with me using the "real" 1.0.2 and lakota using the broken Valaggaric one. (If you're going to even make a post, it's best to specify these things...)

Please note, Pkunk has increased from 14 to 16 points somehow without it making it into the changelog. This change is, notably, not reflected in Valaggar's "build". In fact, I doubt if he even downloaded the source I posted.
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Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
« Reply #61 on: October 29, 2007, 01:28:25 am »

(If you're going to even make a post, it's best to specify these things...)
or i could let you do it.  Grin
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Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
« Reply #62 on: October 29, 2007, 09:15:23 am »

Another ship that it's impossible to balance for is the Pkunk. Do we cost it as if it never revives, or as if it revives 10 times? Jeez! I would very much like to fly a Pkunk that doesn't vary in worth between about 12 and about 24.

Well, given a 1/2 probability of reviving each time, it should be 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8... which eventually comes out to one, multiplied by the proportion of ships that can't beat it without taking damage against all ships (Pkunk v. Pkunk excluded).  This is exactly 3/4.  So, in your price mod, the ideal pkunk should revive .75 times.
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Elvish Pillager
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Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
« Reply #63 on: November 24, 2007, 01:36:42 am »

New version! Only a few changes.

Druuge 18 -> 20
Utwig 24 -> 22
and I don't know what Yehat was before but anyway it's 16 now.

Source: http://eli.cedarswampstudios.org/balance-mod-1.0.3-src.tar.gz

Hopefully someone sane will compile a windows binary for us.
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Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
« Reply #64 on: November 24, 2007, 09:50:28 am »

I don't know what causes those problems, but I have downloaded the 1.0.2 source and I'm sure I have properly compiled it ("properly" meaning "following all instructions on Novus' help page"). I see the only problem is the loss of synchronization with certain ships in netplay. That Yehat has 16 points is exactly as it should be, as you would be convinced if only you would make the huuuge effort of checking your own mod's code.

Moreover, Yehat vs Yehat and Yehat vs Pkunk worked perfectly on my network. No OOS. If there ever was a real loss in synchronization and not just EP willingly disconnecting to discredit me, then it wasn't due to me improperly compiling the mod, anyway, and probably not due to a bug introduced by fixing the Mmrnmhrm exploit either. Though, I tested a Win32-Valaggar-binary vs Win32-Valaggar-binary game, not a Win32-Valaggar-binary vs Linux-binary game... it might be that only the latter goes OOS. Why? Maybe Novus' help page misses something.

As to a 1.0.3 Win32 binary, the Twin Gods (Blessed Be Their Holy Names) art merciful, and hath commanded me to help you regardless of your past sins, but thou needst to wait for http://eli.cedarswampstudios.org to come back online, for it giveth me a HTTP 404.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2007, 10:04:43 am by Valaggar Redux » Logged
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Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
« Reply #65 on: November 24, 2007, 04:14:51 pm »

Though, I tested a Win32-Valaggar-binary vs Win32-Valaggar-binary game, not a Win32-Valaggar-binary vs Linux-binary game... it might be that only the latter goes OOS. Why? Maybe Novus' help page misses something.
I haven't noticed any netplay problems (even between operating systems) with normal UQM SVN (and homegrown binaries), so I'd check for slight differences in patched gameplay code. Another possibility is that there's stuff left over from an older version of the mod in your build environment, in which case a quick "./build.sh uqm clean" and recompile would probably be a good idea. The UQM build system is supposed to notice changes to the source and recompile as required, but the structure of C (with include files and such) makes it a bit hard to get this consistently right without restarting compilation from scratch.
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Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
« Reply #66 on: November 24, 2007, 07:39:08 pm »

Either I, my filesystem, or my C++ compiler have had a lapse of sanity. As far as I can tell, my build of 1.0.2 represents a state of the source code that not only was incorrect, but also never existed. Which, if it made any sense, would explain why it went out of sync with Valaggar's build.

I'd apologize to Valaggar but that would be pointless (he left, after all.) Roll Eyes
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Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
« Reply #67 on: November 25, 2007, 05:46:18 pm »

Version 1.03 as patch and Win32 binary (zipped). Only cursory testing has been done and I have no idea what the library dependencies are (probably the same as for Valaggar's builds).
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Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
« Reply #68 on: November 26, 2007, 12:38:16 am »

The changes are all present, but the program itself still says it's 1.0.2 while running.
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Elvish Pillager
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Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
« Reply #69 on: November 26, 2007, 03:08:44 am »

Doh! forgot to change the version number... Sad

Hardly worth making Novus recompile over, though, unless we go and decide that these are the ultimate perfectly balanced values and we aren't going to change anything, which isn't particularly likely.
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Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
« Reply #70 on: November 30, 2007, 10:32:07 am »

OK, I know that there are people who don't want to see any changes to SC2's game tactics. I understand this. I think this is by and large a reasonable position. Conservatism is the proper approach to changing this game, in my opinion.

However, there is one mod I would like to see in this game, that I think wouldn't be too egregious an offense, even for the purists:
- Modify Earthling Cruiser poind-defense laser to 3 or even 2 energy points instead of from 4.

At the moment, the maximum damage an Earthling can do with its full energy (18) is launch two missiles (9 energy each) that do 4 damage each, for a total of 8 damage (or 2.25 energy per unit damage). Currently the laser (4 fuel for 1 damage) costs 4 energy per unit damage. It can do a maximum or 5 damage on a full tank (it recharges enough to let there be +1 shot) with the PDL. However, in practice one is rarely close enough to an enemy ship for long enough to get many shots on. Either the ship moves away, the ship quickly destroys you (e.g. ur-quan) or you didn't have enough fuel to start with in the first place to get many shots off.
 
   When a ship comes close to the Earthling, the Earthling is more or less screwed. The point defense laser can damage an opponent, but it's basically pointless--usually it's better to save up the enregy for a close-range nuke. Let's face it, the Earthling is slow and its weapons relatively weak. Once a reasonably large ship closes in on it, it's usually game over. It would be good, I think, to make the Earthling at least do some better-than-trivial damage with its laser in its final death throes. At this point, the earth's laser is pretty much good for nothing. Of its uses, I can think:
 - Killing Ur-Quan Fighters
 - Zapping Limpets
 - Hurting or killing, if lucky, an Arilou (only after extreme damage)
 - Zapping outgoing crew that Syreen calls
 - Destroying asteroids when you're in a gravity whip
 
   The PDL cannot be used against most ships effectively. Most of the uses for the PDL described above are overpriced. Keep in mind that the Earthling's laser fires slowly and will never be a strong tactical weapon, only a last resort, and even then, a weak one. I just want to change the PDL so that the Earthling is not too punished for using its pitiful weapon to inflict a few more scratches on the enemy's hull. Against a Mmrnmhrm's missiles it is just not cost effective for an Earthling to zap them (and probably won't be even if this mod is done). While it works on a Spathi's BUTTs, like vs. the Mmrnmhrm, it is not cost effective because it does not leave enough energy to fire a missile and hope to have anything left over for a couple quick shots.
   To sum up, generally speaking, using the laser is extremely rare because it is not a fruitful strategy. Most players save energy for missiles and use them instead. Trying to prevent damage from incoming fire with the PDL is difficult and generally ineffective as a part of overall strategy. It should be noted that in Star Control 3 they changed the cost of the Cruiser's PDL to 2 energy per shot, changing the weapon's status to "slightly better than useless". I think this indicates that it was recognized by many that this "ought to be done" to make the PDL slightly usable. The cruiser is relatively weak against most ships and always will be. I think that, especially if we are to raise the price of the cruiser, we should make this small modification to it.
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Elvish Pillager
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Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
« Reply #71 on: November 30, 2007, 11:39:56 am »

1) Any reference to SCnot3 works more against your point than for it! Cool

2) The point defense laser is used often in the following fights: (just a quickly thrown together list) Androsynth, Arilou, Chmmr, Orz[1], Pkunk, Slylandro, Spathi, Ur-Quan[1], Utwig, ZFP. The PD laser can also be used in many more fights to finish off an enemy when it's at 1 or 2 crew (I've done this to, notably, Kohr-Ah and Druuge...) and has some other minor uses.

3) Very rarely would reducing the weapon's cost help any of this.

4) Even if we were to change the way the ships worked, it would be for overall balance reasons, not because someone's favorite ship was weak.

[1]: The laser actually isn't used often in these fights, because the opponent will be smart enough not to launch fighters/marines. It's still the laser being effective.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2007, 11:43:36 am by Elvish Pillager » Logged

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Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
« Reply #72 on: November 30, 2007, 02:16:49 pm »

It could be a nice mod, but I don't find the normal Cruiser problematic really. I mean, it's called point defence, not offence. It does its job against some ships and fails miserably against others. That's just how SC2 melee works...
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Re: Adjusted Ship Price Mod - Get it while it's hot!
« Reply #73 on: November 30, 2007, 06:51:37 pm »

PsyDev, you made a very well-written post but I don't see how the Earthling Cruiser needs to be made any stronger. It's very useful at 12 points. If you lower PDL's energy cost, you're strengthening the Cruiser's damage output indirectly because it will be able to pump out slightly more missiles in any situation where the PDL comes into play. Elvish Pillager cited a few matches, but in fact the PDL is useful against every single ship. Why? Because the cruiser is slow to accelerate, and one asteroid bounce will typically prove disasterous for the ship. PDL is fantastic for zapping these incoming space rocks. That is the most valuable use for the cruiser's secondary ability from my rather extensive experience with net melee.

Now let me address some of the points you brought up.


Quote from: PsyDev
However, there is one mod I would like to see in this game, that I think wouldn't be too egregious an offense, even for the purists: - Modify Earthling Cruiser poind-defense laser to 3 or even 2 energy points instead of from 4.

True. It is a modest suggestion. But a ship that is already very effective doesn't need an improvement, big or small.


Quote from: PsyDev
At the moment, the maximum damage an Earthling can do with its full energy (18) is launch two missiles (9 energy each) that do 4 damage each, for a total of 8 damage (or 2.25 energy per unit damage). Currently the laser (4 fuel for 1 damage) costs 4 energy per unit damage. It can do a maximum or 5 damage on a full tank (it recharges enough to let there be +1 shot) with the PDL. However, in practice one is rarely close enough to an enemy ship for long enough to get many shots on. Either the ship moves away, the ship quickly destroys you (e.g. ur-quan) or you didn't have enough fuel to start with in the first place to get many shots off.

I don't think the PDL was ever intended to inflict any serious amount of damage per second. The phrase "point defense" itself implies that it is a protective measure.
 

Quote from: PsyDev
When a ship comes close to the Earthling, the Earthling is more or less screwed.

This statement has definite basis, but it's too simplistic. The Earthling can wriggle away from a Kohr-Ah or Ur-Quan long enough to inflict serious damage upon either of them before they get too close, although I've seen a tremendous amount of variety in both of those match-ups. The other thing the Earthling has going for it is its narrow outline. As long as your front is kept facing the enemy, they have a very small area to hit. It's not uncommon to see an Androsynth blaze at and miss an Earthling over and over because it can't catch its target on the wide side.


Quote from: PsyDev
Let's face it, the Earthling is slow and its weapons relatively weak. Once a reasonably large ship closes in on it, it's usually game over. It would be good, I think, to make the Earthling at least do some better-than-trivial damage with its laser in its final death throes.

The ship is not underpowered, if that's what you're implying. It does get caught and killed at some point, but for 11 or 12 points that's to be expected. I suppose if the Earthling weren't strong enough, more drastic changes would be needed than a slight energy drop of the PDL.


Quote from: PsyDev
At this point, the earth's laser is pretty much good for nothing. Of its uses, I can think:
 - Killing Ur-Quan Fighters
 - Zapping Limpets
 - Hurting or killing, if lucky, an Arilou (only after extreme damage)
 - Zapping outgoing crew that Syreen calls
 - Destroying asteroids when you're in a gravity whip

It can also destroy incoming nukes from a mirror Earthling. There are ways around that, and it's actually kind of fun trying to slip a nuke past an enemy cruiser's defense while preventing them from doing the same thing to you. Additionally, you can stop Orz marines with the laser if you're flying directly away from them at a good speed as you fire it. It just isn't very reliable against them, nor should it be.

 
Quote from: PsyDev
Keep in mind that the Earthling's laser fires slowly and will never be a strong tactical weapon, only a last resort, and even then, a weak one.

But it's not a last resort, it's a situational tool.


Quote from: PsyDev
While it works on a Spathi's BUTTs, like vs. the Mmrnmhrm, it is not cost effective because it does not leave enough energy to fire a missile and hope to have anything left over for a couple quick shots.

Spathi recharge is atrocious, so Earthling can actually block torpedos and return fire. Defense against torpedos isn't 100% reliable, especially if the cruiser is flying straight at them full speed.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2007, 07:01:09 pm by Shiver » Logged
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