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Author Topic: Concerning Thraddash and net melee  (Read 19838 times)
Shiver
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Concerning Thraddash and net melee
« on: October 25, 2007, 10:00:32 pm »

The Thraddash Torch has recently caused controversy on these forums and within the net melee community. Among the regulars players, most think it should be banned from play without exception. I tend to agree with them. The video I'm about to link you to will be the bulk of my argument. I have taken great pains in putting this together. If you do not feel inclined to watch my documentery in its entirety, your voice will not be taken seriously on this matter.

Thraddash Demo (49.7 MB)

Click the "770" button near the bottom as soon as you open the page to get a decent view when it's done loading.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2007, 03:00:48 am by Shiver » Logged
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Re: Concerning Thraddash and net melee
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2007, 10:54:03 pm »

  • Nicely done.
  • The music is annoying.
  • A small ship being able to defeat a big ship is in itself not imbalanced; the whole idea of SC2 melee is rock-paper-scissors
  • The music is annoying.
  • The Thraddash victory ditty works very well
  • The music is annoying.
  • The "haikus" are rather lame. They're not really haikus anyhow; they're missing a season word.
  • Is the Mycon really that hard? I'd think the Thraddash would be fast enough to hide behind the opponent and have the Podship hit itself if it dared to fire.
  • The music is annoying.
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Re: Concerning Thraddash and net melee
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2007, 10:57:04 pm »

Quote from: meep-eep
The music is annoying.

Mission accomplished.


Quote from: meep-eep
A small ship being able to defeat a big ship is in itself not imbalanced; the whole idea of SC2 melee is rock-paper-scissors

A 10 point ship laying waste to everything in sight is pretty imbalanced. The problem is compounded by how long it takes for Thraddash to actually beat anything. If you don't yet see how bad the ship is for gameplay, I've got that same video without subtitles for you to watch if you want it.


Quote from: meep-eep
Is the Mycon really that hard? I'd think the Thraddash would be fast enough to hide behind the opponent and have the Podship hit itself if it dared to fire.

Mycon really is impossible for Thraddash to beat. In a previous attempt I actually tried my damndest to make Koowluh blow himself up, but he always healed himself when he went below 50% crew. Mycon heals itself faster than Thraddash can damage it. Thraddash just isn't going to win unless the Mycon player has no idea what they're doing.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2007, 03:03:24 am by Shiver » Logged
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Re: Concerning Thraddash and net melee
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2007, 01:43:10 am »

Thanks for the super-awesome strategy for beating the Chmmr!

In all seriousness though, Thraddash vs. Thraddash is one of THE most entertaining matches out there (and certainly the most entertaining mirror match, IMHO). It's like playing out that scene from TRON. Hmm, maybe we should have a 40-point, Thraddash-only tournament....
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Re: Concerning Thraddash and net melee
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2007, 02:44:02 am »

Perhaps I showed up to the conversation late, but does anyone have any suggestions for properly nerfing the Thraddash if they are, indeed, overpowered?  Or is this one of those "here's a problem, make it go away" types of suggestions?

Because if it's the latter, I'm fairly certain I know where those are filed.  Wink

As for tinkering with ship properties for the sake of game balance, I'd be all for it; the "Starcraft model" can be followed (i.e., in the "normal" game, the busted balance prevails due to the levels being designed with it in mind, but in PvP/net games, everything's retuned for optimum fun)
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Re: Concerning Thraddash and net melee
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2007, 02:58:03 am »

Perhaps I showed up to the conversation late, but does anyone have any suggestions for properly nerfing the Thraddash if they are, indeed, overpowered?  Or is this one of those "here's a problem, make it go away" types of suggestions?

Because if it's the latter, I'm fairly certain I know where those are filed.  Wink

As for tinkering with ship properties for the sake of game balance, I'd be all for it; the "Starcraft model" can be followed (i.e., in the "normal" game, the busted balance prevails due to the levels being designed with it in mind, but in PvP/net games, everything's retuned for optimum fun)

Actually, I made this topic so that the next time some newbie asks "why is Thraddash 200 points?" or "why is Thraddash barred from this tournament?", I'll have something to point them at.

I don't think anyone should be screwing with vanilla ship values, but I've always loved the idea of modding the ships a bit for a balance mod. The simplest change I can think of would be to cut the Thraddash blaster range down by a third or so, but I'm not really sure how well that would work.
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Re: Concerning Thraddash and net melee
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2007, 03:46:20 am »

I don't think anyone should be screwing with vanilla ship values
Why not?  Bugs are bugs, and design flaws are just bugs that happen to be backed by correct code.  But your final match would appear to undo your own argument:  the Podship and Cruiser can both make short work of the Torch (the former more reliably than the latter)  So what exactly is the problem?  You guys just hate to use the counter-ships to this ship, so you ban this ship instead?

The Chmmr fight is a damn shame, though.  The relative immunity the Torch has against the Avatar's weapons definitely smells of bugliness.  I'd think the following attribute changes could mitigate that:

  • Reduce the range of the Mark VI blaster to medium-short (roughly what the Shofixti has) from medium-long, to make standoff tactics riskier
  • Reduce the hitpoints of the Mark VI blaster's projectile to 1, so that zapsats can neutralize it.  Why should it fare better than a Cruiser or an Eluder in this regard?
  • Reduce the mass of the ship so that the tractor beam is more effective.

...those are all just integer values in src/sc2code/ships/thradd/thradd.c, re-tuning them is a no-brainer, then just check the balance against other ships to make sure it's still worth a damn when it should be.

If you wanted to look beyond simple re-tuning of parameters, you might also want to look into why the Torch is immune to its own afterburner trails, and fix it if it's trivial to do so.  Makes no sense, it should be like the B.U.T.T. missles / Homing plasma in that regard, i.e., a good weapon, but with risks associated.

My $0.02 USD, which ain't worth much these days...  Smiley
« Last Edit: October 26, 2007, 03:49:30 am by 0xDEC0DE » Logged

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Re: Concerning Thraddash and net melee
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2007, 04:50:51 am »

I don't think anyone should be screwing with vanilla ship values
Why not?  Bugs are bugs, and design flaws are just bugs that happen to be backed by correct code.  But your final match would appear to undo your own argument:  the Podship and Cruiser can both make short work of the Torch (the former more reliably than the latter)  So what exactly is the problem?  You guys just hate to use the counter-ships to this ship, so you ban this ship instead?

No no no. A real counter situation is when Druuge beats Chmmr. The Chmmr can fight back and actually pull one over on the Druuge if it's cleverly piloted.  Druuge is a 17 point ship, and when you use it to counter Chmmr you're making a risky play. There is no risk in using the much cheaper Thraddash to smash something. It's so cheap and effective it's just absurd.

These ships beat Thraddash easily: Kohr-Ah, Melnorme, Druuge, Mycon, Mmrnmhrm. Unless I'm forgetting something, that's pretty much it. Everything that can counter Thraddash costs more than it. In other words, those ships I mentioned aren't really counters at all. The Earthling Cruiser doesn't work that well against Thraddash. Do I need to do a video of that too?

Quote from: 0xDEC0DE
The Chmmr fight is a damn shame, though.  The relative immunity the Torch has against the Avatar's weapons definitely smells of bugliness.  I'd think the following attribute changes could mitigate that:

  • Reduce the range of the Mark VI blaster to medium-short (roughly what the Shofixti has) from medium-long, to make standoff tactics riskier
  • Reduce the hitpoints of the Mark VI blaster's projectile to 1, so that zapsats can neutralize it.  Why should it fare better than a Cruiser or an Eluder in this regard?
  • Reduce the mass of the ship so that the tractor beam is more effective.

...those are all just integer values in src/sc2code/ships/thradd/thradd.c, re-tuning them is a no-brainer, then just check the balance against other ships to make sure it's still worth a damn when it should be.

If you wanted to look beyond simple re-tuning of parameters, you might also want to look into why the Torch is immune to its own afterburner trails, and fix it if it's trivial to do so.  Makes no sense, it should be like the B.U.T.T. missles / Homing plasma in that regard, i.e., a good weapon, but with risks associated.

My $0.02 USD, which ain't worth much these days...  Smiley

I would much rather there be a widely used balance mod. The flaws in the game that net melee fanatics like me complain about are not going to become apparent to any casual gamer. How many players have actually experienced a truly awful match that was decided by a Thraddash Torch? Not many. The top players around here all refuse to use Thraddash.
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Re: Concerning Thraddash and net melee
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2007, 08:42:18 am »

Apology accepted. It was truly a boring and horrible match... 5 times.

Anyone seeing this and wanting to go a round with me, sure is invited to join #uqm-arena and/or send me a PM. I may not be on #uqm-arena much, but don't hesitate to ask if I am.
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Re: Concerning Thraddash and net melee
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2007, 10:04:29 am »

Thraddash Demo (49.7 MB)
I want my 25 minutes back. Even the commentary doesn't keep this from being boring. I think it could be a good idea to have an alternate set of ship stats for netplay, with, for example, the Torch's range and mass cut down sharply as 0xDECODE00 suggests. Another suggestion is to gradually start adding random destructive stuff to the environment (black holes or something like planets but worse would be cool).

Now, how about doing the same for Utwig Juggers? Wink
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Re: Concerning Thraddash and net melee
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2007, 05:31:27 pm »

If you’re seriously considering modding the blaster, then I suggest boosting the max crew to 14. Fourteen crew allows you survive two 6-damage or three 4-damage shots (up from one 6-damage and one 4-damage shots, respectively).

I think this change - along with the weakend blaster - would encourage more daring and aggressive afterburner tactics (you’re not constantly worrying about a quick death) and thus, much more entertaining fights. Testing is required, of course.
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Re: Concerning Thraddash and net melee
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2007, 08:35:14 am »

I've grown weary of attempting to voice a rational argument why the Traddash should not and never be excluded from melee matches. After watching the video; it occurred to me that (if I recall correctly) the original contention was that the Traddash was a worthless ship, which of course it's not. When were the gears switched on that one? o_O As for ruthlessly boring matches... Several ships can do that including: Androsyn, Spathi and Slylandro. Whatever… I find myself not caring so much anymore.
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Re: Concerning Thraddash and net melee
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2007, 09:25:58 am »

I've grown weary of attempting to voice a rational argument why the Traddash should not and never be excluded from melee matches.

I don't remember you or anyone making a real case in favor of Thraddash. What I do remember is you repeatedly insisting on your God-Given Right to continue to abuse the Torch. That in itself is not going to sway many people towards your point of view.


Quote from: Amiga_Nut
it occurred to me that (if I recall correctly) the original contention was that the Traddash was a worthless ship, which of course it's not.

EP has said that, not me. And he'd be wrong, but I think he meant that Thraddash is useless if both players in a melee are willing to adhere to sportsmanlike conduct.


Quote from: Amiga_Nut
As for ruthlessly boring matches... Several ships can do that including: Androsyn, Spathi and Slylandro.

Androsynth: Yes, there are a few match-ups which can be tedious. The "Bubble Bath" strategy is obnoxious, but IMO it's legitimate against fast skirmishers such as Arilou. Everyone and their brother knows that Androsynth is overpowered at 15 points, but ramping up the price on it fixes that quite easily.

Spathi: Spathi is not a problem, it's the players that use it. The Spathi has short ranged weaponry, so in actuality it has to go on the offensive against most other ships. The problem is that tons of players use it like they use Fwiffo in the campaign and expect their opponent to chase them forever.

Slylandro: Not a serious problem.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2007, 09:31:39 am by Shiver » Logged
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Re: Concerning Thraddash and net melee
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2007, 03:56:02 pm »

I have never seen a Slylandro dragging a match. I can't even think of any situation where it would be possible. Unless someone wants to troll by just fleeing endlessly - but as I said - I have never seen such an act.
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Re: Concerning Thraddash and net melee
« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2007, 02:05:56 am »

The whole argument is totally biased anyway! The video is an admittedly top tier Traddash playing an intermediate player. The Traddash should have NEVER beaten the Chmrr. The Syreen never tried to grav-whip at him. You can create any circumstances to argue any point. I’m not convinced. I hear that the Traddash should have a little more crew. That it’s projectile should be a little less tough -or travel less distance. I really don’t know what tweaks would make it acceptable to the top players. All I know is when a newbie comes to #uqm-arena they are not expecting a bunch of politics and bull crap. And that’s what this is….. CRAP!  ALL THE SHIPS ARE COOL IN SOME WAY! I'm really sorry if your lofty melee skills have dulled your enjoyment of certain ships. YOU ARE THE MINORITY! This "CLICK” IMHO, is making a political mistake.
But I don't count right? I "abuse the torch"... right? My playing style sucks right? A most unfair determination I feel.
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