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Author Topic: Concerning Thraddash and net melee  (Read 21065 times)
Shiver
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Re: Concerning Thraddash and net melee
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2007, 02:10:43 am »

Quote from: Amiga_Nut
All I know is when a newbie comes to #uqm-arena they are not expecting a bunch of politics and bull crap.

This is a clumsy argument, but you're hinting at something that I happen to agree with. Is Thraddash abusive when two casual players go up against each other? No, it's not. When people begin to play melee more competitively, that's where the problem kicks in.


Quote from: Amiga_Nut
I'm really sorry if your lofty melee skills have dulled your enjoyment of certain ships.

You're not exactly a shit player either. From what I remember, you're good enough at melee that Thraddash can be (and is) game breaking.


Quote from: Amiga_Nut
But I don't count right? I "abuse the torch"... right? My playing style sucks right? A most unfair determination I feel.

Is that what I'm projecting now? Forgive me, It's not what I was going for. I wanted you to post your perspective in here so there'd be a counter-point of some sort.
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« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2007, 02:36:50 am »

I wasn't able to view it, but I've seen Thraddash in play, and personally taken it against Chmmr twice, to demonstrate that it could beat Chmmr, with Thraddash player willing to play a borefest: Once against Squisherxxx, once against Shiver. The first time was cut off by me having to take in groceries, and thus disrupted my skill, resulting in a death after fifteen or more wasted minutes; the game against Shiver was disrupted by Shiver realizing the futility of it and quitting.

The Torch's only useful ability is people getting frustrated (because the Torch sits back, flies around, and bravely does nothing) and letting themselves get killed. If both players play to win, Thraddash is nearly useless. If the other player (the one who wants something more interesting) plays for the fun of playing, he'll eventually give up and suicide, either against the Torch's afterburner or the planet.

Thraddash is only overpowered in that it is boring, and there is no reliable way to counter that without using a more costly ship. (Even then, it's often more time-consuming than it should be.)

That said:
The Torch *is* a borefest ship.
The Torch *does* need to be revised.
Whoever disagrees with these statements is a pawn.

However, I do not believe the solution is simply to make it easier for the Avatar to destroy, since the problem isn't in its inherent power (which is actually very limited), as so much its lack of need to close in,  its lack of *ability* to close in (seeing as it is worthless at actually doing damage, unless the other player chooses to let it), and its ability to stay away from everything else (while everything else can evade the Torch almost as well as the Torch can them, resulting in five-hour matches).

The solution is to alter the afterburner into a special that does much less for the Torch's speed (I do like the idea of the flames damaging the Torch), while changing up the main gun so as to make it more interesting. If we lower the Torch's inherent cost to, say, 8, or 7, we can make it a ship that is a counterpart to the ZFP Stinger and Shofixti Scout. It would have a special that does no significant damage, but it would have an excellent gun (for a ship its size), creating an interesting triad -- Shofixti, with a highly-damaging special and weak main gun, Torch, with an ineffectual special damage-wise and a powerful main gun, and ZFP, which is a balance.

As for the other ships:
Androsynth's primary use is in Comet form; while bubbling does work against some ships (Arilou, Pkunk) it's largely useless against most ships, since they can simply choose not to fly into the bubbles, and bide their time until something comes up.

Spathi isn't nearly as boring to fight or fly as Thraddash, since it actually needs to come into a very close range to attack (which exposes it to all kinds of fire) and requires daring and skill to do this, do damage, and avoid taking damage yourself.

Seeing as Slylandro's sole weapon is at close-range, and it is absolute murder at that, I can't see how any problem could be the Slylandro player's fault, unless he's going to have to take on Mmrnmhrm and he doesn't want to walk into the enemy's beam.

As for Amiga_nut...

Quote
The Thraddash should have NEVER beaten the Chmmr.
Have you ever even played Chmmr/Thraddash, as Chmmr? I'm not as good as Shiver, or very likely Squisher, yet in the long run, I did much more damage proportionately (and by "doing damage", I mean, "caused them to take damage by virtue of boring them to death so that they'd make a mistake") than they did to me. Blathering on about how Shiver is so l33t, so the entire video is invalid, will serve you to no end.

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The Syreen never tried to grav-whip at him.
Probably because the Torch, a master of borefest combat, would have simply rocketted away, leaving a trail of borefest flames in its wake. There is no point in chasing down Thraddash.

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You can create any circumstances to argue any point.
In that case, there's no point in arguing anything about anything, since people can 'create any circumstances to argue any point'.

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I'm not convinced.
I wouldn't expect anything else.

Quote
All I know is that when a newbie comes to #uqm-arena they are not expecting (blah blah blah)
Why would a newbie want to play a game that has such a boring ship? Star Control II has flaws: the majority of the galaxy is dedicated to nothing more than featureless mining zones, the plot is rather linear (though still relatively open-ended, you don't have nearly as many options as the game's setup would lead you to suspect), the Quasispace portals are only useful if you have an established guide, and without them you have to trek all over the galaxy, to no apparent end.

However, this flaw affects one of the most relatively good parts of the game, melee, and destroys one-twenty-fifth of potential gameplay. Of twenty-five ships, one of them is completely, deliberately, and maliciously useless, to all those except people who know their opponents will choose to fly into their flames.

Quote
ALL THE SHIPS ARE COOL IN SOME WAY!
What is cool about the Torch? The afterburner? The Umgah Drone does something like that, and it was done better there. The main gun? Sorry, the Torch's gun is one of the most boring ones in the game, and is tempered by the fact that it belongs to the Torch. The flames that spew out the back, serving no purpose save as a suicide mechanism for people tired of dealing with the Torch?

Even if it *was* cool, "cool" does not equal "playability", or even necessarily "fun". UQM is a cool game, but it *is* flawed, and without a guide I would have been hard-pressed to do as well in it as I did. Something being "cool" and something being "fun" are *NOT* the same thing, and the latter is far more important.

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I'm really sorry if your lofty melee skills have dulled your enjoyment of certain ships.
I'd dare say that even the newest players of melee would quickly recognize the uselessness of the Torch. And even if not, there *are* no other ships that they have thoughto be this boring.

Some have been thought to not be worth their cost, yes. But they're willing to play all of them to some extent, or allow them to be played.

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A most unfair determination I feel.
You've never proved otherwise. The game is about fun, not running around for a hour because you aren't willing to let your Torch die, and the other player isn't willing to suicide.

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YOU ARE THE MINORITY!
Shiver knows the Torch is boring.
EP knows the Torch is boring.
Tiberian knows the Torch is boring.
And in fact, everyone that I have seen acknowledges that the Torch is flawed.
Everyone that I have seen acknowledges that, fundamentally, the Torch is a BORING SHIP.
That people chasing after it like headless chickens until they get desperately bored is NOT fun.
That being able to evade nearly everything that can be played against you , yet not being able to do anything significant in return is NOT the mark of a good ship.
That dreading the moment when a Torch is used, not because of its firepower or the player's skill, but because you know in your heart of hearts that, barring a player quitting, bugs in the game or divine intervention, the fight will last as long as the rest of the match, is NOT a sign of good gameplay.
Everyone I know of, in some form or fashion, know this. In many cases, they're willing to overlook it; play a little worse with it, or suicide with it, just to keep the game flowing.
Everyone I know of, except for you.
Tell me, Amiga_Nut: Who's in the minority now?
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Shiver
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Re: Concerning Thraddash and net melee
« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2007, 03:24:07 am »

Quote from: C. Bob
I wasn't able to view it

Download the codecs from this website, it should solve your problem.


Quote from: C. Bob
If both players play to win, Thraddash is nearly useless. If the other player (the one who wants something more interesting) plays for the fun of playing, he'll eventually give up and suicide, either against the Torch's afterburner or the planet.

This is wrong. If both players play at their best and neither one of them stops and says "this is stupid, I'm quitting/conceding/whatever", the Thraddash is ridiculously powerful. The video tries to establish this.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2007, 03:32:30 am by Shiver » Logged
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Re: Concerning Thraddash and net melee
« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2007, 03:26:55 am »

Thanks C-Bob... I don't have the time to disagree with you point by point. So I won’t.
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Re: Concerning Thraddash and net melee
« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2007, 03:36:49 am »

Shiver: "both players playing at their best" doesn't involve the other player walking into Thraddash's attack path. Taking damage from the flames is a matter of choice, and it honestly isn't that hard, at least from my (admittedly dated) recollection to dodge/otherwise avoid/counter its one-shot-at-a-time peashooter, which means that takes forever. Furthermore, the inherent scenario isn't incredibly realistic for standard, non-video Wink games; I've put up with terrible lag, because I wanted to win and it wasn't the guy's fault that he lived in a certain place and/or had such a bad connection, but I wouldn't tolerate long, neverending games with Thraddash. I doubt that the affected player(s) would play so long without quitting that Thraddash would make a huge difference, relative to the cooler ships.

In any case, though, it's ultimately irrelevent, since either way, we can all agree that Thraddash is still a boring ship, and that it should be revised regardless of if it's considered powerful or not in borefest games.
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Shiver
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Re: Concerning Thraddash and net melee
« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2007, 03:47:41 am »

Shiver: "both players playing at their best" doesn't involve the other player walking into Thraddash's attack path. Taking damage from the flames is a matter of choice, and it honestly isn't that hard, at least from my (admittedly dated) recollection to dodge/otherwise avoid/counter its one-shot-at-a-time peashooter, which means that takes forever. Furthermore, the inherent scenario isn't incredibly realistic; I've put up with terrible lag, because I wanted to win and it wasn't the guy's fault that he lived in a certain place and/or had such a bad connection, but I wouldn't tolerate long, neverending games with Thraddash. I doubt that the affected player(s) would play so long without quitting that Thraddash would make a huge difference, relative to the cooler ships.

In any case, though, it's ultimately irrelevent, since either way, we can all agree that Thraddash is still a boring ship, and that it should be revised regardless of if it's considered powerful or not in borefest games.

The very first post said I would disregard the opinion of anyone who did not watch the video. I said that as part of the joke, as the first post is a joke post and the video is practically a prank I played on the UQM community. And yet the first person to post in here without viewing it is already wreaking havok.

Let me try to get this across. The Thraddash blaster has insane range. Using the Torch's superior speed and said weapon, it steamrolls almost everything. These fights all take a very, very long time which just adds insult to injury. If you had watched the video, this would be obvious to you. I don't want to clash with you on this. Thraddash is indeed terrible for melee, and Amiga Nut does need a wake-up call. But you're mistaking something which is fundamental to the thread, and I hate that.
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Re: Concerning Thraddash and net melee
« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2007, 04:53:25 am »

The very first post said I would disregard the opinion of anyone who did not watch the video. I said that as part of the joke, as the first post is a joke post and the video is practically a prank I played on the UQM community. And yet the first person to post in here without viewing it is already wreaking havok.
Our opinions of 'havoc' would differ, but I don't care that much about the definition of it.

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Let me try to get this across. The Thraddash blaster has insane range.
It has been a while since I've played against Thraddash in particular; I remembered it being significantly farther than Shofixti, but not quite *that* high. You've played it more recently, though, so you would know better than me.

It's not that big of a deal to me of the particulars of it; it simply seemed, in theory, that other ships should be able to evade it, and that it'd be hard to aim with. It seemed that way to me, at such long ranges. But you were always more accurate than me.

I actually don't even have the game on my machine any longer, and I was planning on dropping off the face of the Earth, as far as the community knew; however, I just had to drop that last, long post in, when I saw Amiga's stuff. So. Wink

No hard feelings, and safe travels.

- C. Bob
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Re: Concerning Thraddash and net melee
« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2007, 10:05:59 am »

I actually tried a few grav-whips but saw that it was futile to try. The Syreen suiciding was actually miscalculating my last grav-whip to try.

The only time I got close to Shiver with a grav-whip was with the UQ and the Chmmr, and that's (probably) because he let me. One long press on his special key and he was out of my sights again.

I myself am not fond of changing ships, including the Thraddash. I do acknowledge though that if one player actually thinks that he can bore me out with a Thraddash (or a Spathi for that matter), I'd probably quit right away and never play that player again... something that the already not so large netmelee community really can't have.

I'm not the kind of guy either that likes to play 3d shoot em ups and have me snipered to boredom (or sniper to boredom myself). It lacks skill and dedication and basically takes a game down to pressing a button when something comes in view. I had exactly the same feeling playing against Shiver.

So to conclude; I do not think the Thraddash should be changed. I myself am more in favor of an 'attitude'  change, which basically is that if you see someone dragging a match (with any ship, not just the Thraddash)... quit. Never play that player again. That is however one thing that the netmelee community cannot afford. Stuck between the proverbial rock and a hard place so to say.  Undecided
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Re: Concerning Thraddash and net melee
« Reply #23 on: October 30, 2007, 11:20:34 pm »

Ah, just to say the Thraddash is a really annoying ship which I agree should still be banned, it drags the game on for hours just to annoy people :/

Woo, it has Afterburners, anyone can avoid that..
« Last Edit: October 30, 2007, 11:22:46 pm by Elerium » Logged
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Re: Concerning Thraddash and net melee
« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2007, 12:10:08 pm »

How about imposing a time-limit?
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Shiver
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Re: Concerning Thraddash and net melee
« Reply #25 on: October 31, 2007, 12:23:08 pm »

How about imposing a time-limit?

This isn't a bad idea and has been done before in Cedric's tournaments, but time limits allow for the annoying possibility of stalemates. If I'm losing badly to someone, why not bring in a fast ship and kill a few minutes with it to make sure the game ends in a draw instead of a loss? Or if you put in a time limit for each individual match, that can come out unfair too. A few match-ups tend to play out as long stand-offs without actually being annoying to either player. Mmrnmhrm vs Syreen comes to mind here.
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Re: Concerning Thraddash and net melee
« Reply #26 on: October 31, 2007, 08:29:47 pm »

This movie is wrong. I did watch it.
Wink

As for the topic of fixing, here are some thoughts:


1) reduce the size of the battery
---- no longer does a fully charged thraddash have a get away free card.

2) blaster changes
2a) make the shot really wide, like the width of the thraddash itself
---- this makes it easier to hit with, and easier to shoot down. About a wash, but I think it'd be interesting.
2b) increase its fire rate
---- easier to hit with when strafing, do more damage if you get a good lineup
2c) increase its cost
---- but you can't keep it up forever; you actually do need to choose between shooting and afterburnering.

3) make the afterburner move backwards, instead of sitting still
---- 'go to them' strategies make more sense in this case.


With this, a recosting to a sane value could be possible.
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Re: Concerning Thraddash and net melee
« Reply #27 on: October 31, 2007, 10:05:41 pm »

Time limits are a perfect example of a a problem having a solution that is obvious, straightforward, and wrong.  Shifting the focus from "beating the opponent" to "beating the clock" solves nothing.  And if a draw ends up removing the ships from play, such things could be used strategically, e.g., bring out a low-point ship that dodges well to take out the capital ships.

Although despite the fact that their own argument about the Thraddash is refuted at the end of their own video, the problem of "un-fun melee matches" does, in fact exist, and the Torch is just a symptom of the problem.  Nerfing the ships might cure one of the symptoms, but any reasonably skilled player can cause a match to drag out if the match-up of ships is such to allow for it.  That is the real problem, in my opinion.

But an elegant solution to what I consider "the real problem" might already exist in the full game: the emergency warp escape.  It allows you to switch ships without losing the ship you have in play, but it takes a little bit to spool up, so your opponent gets a free shot or twelve while you duck out of play.  You can then select a decent counter-ship, and it's back to optimum fun.  All the code is there, it's just disabled in the super-melee game.

Not to say that adding it into super-melee wouldn't be problematic.  In the full-game, using the warp escape with an escort ship removes it from play for the rest of the battle, so you effectively "lose" it, but don't lose all the RUs it took to build it.  This is undoubtedly because game states like limpet count, etc. are not properly persistent, so this would need to be fixed in order to keep it from becoming a way to "unfuck" your ship if it gets hobbled.  Or, it could temporarily remove the ship from play (i.e., make it un-selectable for one or two turns) and the "healing" aspect could be considered a side-effect/feature.  Either way, some code would need to be thrown at the problem; but I'd think it a worthy endeavour.
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Re: Concerning Thraddash and net melee
« Reply #28 on: October 31, 2007, 10:12:21 pm »

That wouldn't solve the problem at all.

Also, point on how the code currently works:

- if you implement "Flee in Super Melee" in the most naive way, the game will sometimes end before all the ships have been used up, or mess up and give a player a ship selection dialog when that player has no ships left to pick. Not sure how to work around this.

- fleeing in the full game leaves the ship that has escaped with its damage, while extra coding effort would be required to avoid giving a free heal in Super Melee.
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Re: Concerning Thraddash and net melee
« Reply #29 on: October 31, 2007, 10:13:47 pm »

I agree wholeheartedly with 0xDEC0DE.
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