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Author Topic: Concerning Thraddash and net melee  (Read 20440 times)
Death 999
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Re: Concerning Thraddash and net melee
« Reply #60 on: November 14, 2007, 08:06:06 pm »

You act as if me being unable to prove categorically that your system doesn't work makes you right.
Bull. The question had not even been seriously addressed, as demonstrated by your plainly inadequate summary of ships that could catch other ships.

Even the alternatives you propose don't do much for your cause: If we increase the escape time significantly, it becomes a great liability to flee, since almost any ship could do significant damage in the time.

You are using two definitions of significantly, so as to unfairly pretend that there is no solution. One is a fractional increase; the other its strategic usefulness. The only relevant metric, however, is its strategic usefulness; and if you allow that there is a continuum in that, then clearly there is a point where it is reasonably strategically useful.


If the blue flag system is used to delay Thraddash reappearing in the particular sequence you questioned above, one could simply join with each other ship in sequence and flee, since one would expect all your ships to be faster than Mycon, and thus able to flee Mycon.

This strategy would fail epically, as you would know if you thought about it for more than a few seconds. Want to talk out this matchup and see why?

Propose a specific system and defend it, or your posts will be too vague to be worth diddly-squat.
A system with one free parameter which is a simple number, coupled with an intuitive criterion for selecting that free parameter, which is what I gave you is very specific. Something might not be worth diddly-squat in this thread, but it isn't my posts.
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Elvish Pillager
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Re: Concerning Thraddash and net melee
« Reply #61 on: November 16, 2007, 01:04:26 am »

There's no argument that can be made here if you persist in insisting that my data is invalid (which it isn't.)

I asked you to offer a single benefit of the proposed system. You have not done this; you are arguing because you disagree rather than arguing for your system. I will not engage in such an argument.
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Re: Concerning Thraddash and net melee
« Reply #62 on: November 19, 2007, 06:49:56 pm »

Brain fart: Make the afterburner damage the ship / crew occasionally / randomly when used. This would provide a time limit of sorts, and it wouldn't change how the ship handles. The damage could be so rare that it's only noticeable in longer matches... causing the Torch to self destruct eventually.
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Death 999
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Re: Concerning Thraddash and net melee
« Reply #63 on: November 19, 2007, 11:20:04 pm »

There's no argument that can be made here if you persist in insisting that my data is invalid (which it isn't.)

You never actually presented your data, so how could I attack it? I address your reasoning. You are asking the wrong questions.

You put forth an abusive strategy which would nullify all the benefits of the system, which I said would be bad strategy and offered to go into more detail.

Rather than ask to go into more detail, you made your above post, which is entirely worthless as it is based in two major falsehoods, the first of which I have just addressed - that I have been somehow attacking your data, which I have not... and...

I asked you to offer a single benefit of the proposed system. You have not done this; you are arguing because you disagree rather than arguing for your system. I will not engage in such an argument.

Or you could just read page 3 where Nic laid out the case for running away, OR his refresher on the previous page. It has been addressed. Sheesh.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2007, 11:38:24 pm by Death 999 » Logged
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Re: Concerning Thraddash and net melee
« Reply #64 on: November 20, 2007, 09:29:29 pm »

[quote "guesst"]
Because a solution requires the tinker with a 2 decade old treasure. These conversations will often end with a mod, but the original will necessarily remain unaltered.
[/quote]

Curmudgeon! Wink

Actually, I like the idea of having the Thraddash burn off a crew now and then.  Sure, it might make them depend *more* on the front gun than the afterburner, but at least they couldn't run away as much.
Maybe the Thraddash could regain all of the crew they lost to burns if they win the match (treated with burn cream).  That might make it more fair.
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Death 999
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Re: Concerning Thraddash and net melee
« Reply #65 on: November 29, 2007, 09:52:41 pm »

An alternate limitation on retreat:

You can't run away if you've run away more times than your opponent.

Is that better?
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Elvish Pillager
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Re: Concerning Thraddash and net melee
« Reply #66 on: November 29, 2007, 09:58:27 pm »

It surely reduces the ways retreating could be exploited. It still doesn't fix stalemates.
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Re: Concerning Thraddash and net melee
« Reply #67 on: November 30, 2007, 01:20:07 am »

That still allows for the "Oh, he just started flashing. I'm going to retreat too so he doesn't counter me!" infinite loop.
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Re: Concerning Thraddash and net melee
« Reply #68 on: November 30, 2007, 10:09:04 am »

I didn't take the time to read the whole thread but wasn't there an idea long ago that retreating from battle in melee would mean that the next ship selection would be random?
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Re: Concerning Thraddash and net melee
« Reply #69 on: November 30, 2007, 10:22:17 am »

I didn't take the time to read the whole thread but wasn't there an idea long ago that retreating from battle in melee would mean that the next ship selection would be random?

Could work with certain other limits in place. If not, what's to stop you from retreating each and every time until you get the ship that you want?
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Re: Concerning Thraddash and net melee
« Reply #70 on: November 30, 2007, 07:08:30 pm »

Brain fart: Make the afterburner damage the ship / crew occasionally / randomly when used. This would provide a time limit of sorts, and it wouldn't change how the ship handles. The damage could be so rare that it's only noticeable in longer matches... causing the Torch to self destruct eventually.

This idea has definite potential and may end up in a mod at some point. The ship will still be annoying as sin to play against, but not really overpowered.
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Death 999
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Re: Concerning Thraddash and net melee
« Reply #71 on: November 30, 2007, 08:12:43 pm »

That still allows for the "Oh, he just started flashing. I'm going to retreat too so he doesn't counter me!" infinite loop.

What set of ships do you envision this happening with?
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Re: Concerning Thraddash and net melee
« Reply #72 on: November 30, 2007, 09:01:16 pm »

That still allows for the "Oh, he just started flashing. I'm going to retreat too so he doesn't counter me!" infinite loop.

What set of ships do you envision this happening with?

That could occur with any ship set if one of the players involved is obnoxious enough. As with the Thraddash ban, I would strongly prefer to not give players the capability to be obnoxious effectively. Even if that extreme activity is minimized, you'd still get exchanges like this:


* Player 1 picks Zoq-Fot-Pik and Player 2 picks Melnorme to start.

* Player 1 starts to withdraw.

* Player 2 begins withdrawing a second later because a Slylandro is probably incoming to counter. Anything that loses to Slylandro will probably have to do this.

* Player 1 brings in Slylandro.

* Player 2 escapes, then brings in Chmmr.

* Player 1 finds a nice edge of the screen and withdraws, then brings in Utwig.

* Player 2 withdraws and starts bringing in VUX.

* Player 1 scoots away from the VUX's laser while shielding, then withdraws as he gets far enough away.



There's probably slight amounts of damage occuring in some of these and the melee will end eventually, but this type of gameplay can only be described as "anti-fun".
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Death 999
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Re: Concerning Thraddash and net melee
« Reply #73 on: December 02, 2007, 05:42:09 pm »

Player 2 could alternately have laughed when Player 1 blew their escape on saving a ZFP, and not run away, thus preventing P1 from running away until P2 chose to let them; of course, this would involve letting the Melnorme get into a match with a Slylandro.
But then you've trapped their Slylandro up against your Chmmr. A fair trade on the face of it; and P2 would still have the running-away advantage.
If P2 had led off with a lower-value ship, as is wise, this trade would be very much in their favor, not just slightly.

So, we see that one player being obnoxious enough is not enough; we need two.


If you're still not satisfied:
If one player being in escape mode blocks the other from escaping prevents the other from entering it, would that help?


Incidentally, why the heck would the Utwig withdraw from the VUX? If it's got some motion, the intrusion device won't do much; and then it can rip the intruder to pieces from very moderate range. If the VUX began to run, of course, it would get hammered.
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Re: Concerning Thraddash and net melee
« Reply #74 on: December 03, 2007, 01:26:21 am »

Okay D9, seriously, why are you talking TheoryCraft to me? I'm saying escape in melee leads to bad gameplay. You can argue SC2 game mechanics with me until we're both blue in the face, but that's not the core of the problem.


Quote from: Death 999
Player 2 could alternately have laughed when Player 1 blew their escape on saving a ZFP, and not run away.

No. A Zoq-Fot-Pik can destroy a Mycon or Earthling so retreating it isn't pointless. And the Melnorme definitely needs to flee as soon as it sees another ship flash. Destroying a ZFP isn't really worth the trouble if a Slylandro is going to pop out next, which it will.


Quote from: Death 999
But then you've trapped their Slylandro up against your Chmmr. A fair trade on the face of it; and P2 would still have the running-away advantage.

Slylandro can escape Chmmr. Pass an edge to a spot where the Chmmr has to reverse their direction to get to you and you'll escape before they can fire on you.


Quote from: Death 999
If P2 had led off with a lower-value ship, as is wise, this trade would be very much in their favor, not just slightly.

Everything is lower value than the Chmmr. Just bring it out to ravage whatever you least feel like dealing with. It can often beat direct counters to it, such as Druuge. You don't want to send Chmmr against Kohr-Ah or Ur-Quan and no I don't feel like explaining why. This whole discussion is a waste of time as it is.


Quote
If you're still not satisfied:
If one player being in escape mode blocks the other from escaping prevents the other from entering it, would that help?

I don't understand the question.


Quote from: Death 999
Incidentally, why the heck would the Utwig withdraw from the VUX? If it's got some motion, the intrusion device won't do much; and then it can rip the intruder to pieces from very moderate range. If the VUX began to run, of course, it would get hammered.

VUX counters Utwig. The Jugger is too tubby to get within firing range of the VUX once the ships have moved away from each other at the very start. Limpet city. The best an Utwig can do is actually chase a VUX right from the start and allow itself to be covered in limpets so that it fire a few more shots. VUX has enough crew to get away from this 90% of the time.
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