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Author Topic: Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end?  (Read 12768 times)
Resh Aleph
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Re: Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end?
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2008, 07:50:32 am »

It just doesn't seem realistic to me that the offspring are so passionate over an historic event. I don't think this is anything like religion. Religion is mystic. People love that stuff. History is boring.

And again, even religion isn't a race's Catholic wedding, so to speak. There was a time when the whole world was religious, yet it's changed. Even in one religion, there are many different beliefs.

Not that it's realistic that entire races have the same personality... but I guess reality is boring. Tongue
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Re: Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end?
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2008, 05:35:44 pm »

Indoctrination? Parents pass their hate and fear on to their offspring. Plus, from Vals quote, it certainly seems like theres some kind of genetic instinctual memory.
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Death 999
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Re: Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end?
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2008, 06:26:05 pm »

History is boring.

I'm very sorry for you; properly encountered, history is gripping.
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Resh Aleph
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Re: Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end?
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2008, 08:05:55 pm »

Not as gripping as religion is to a religious person... Not even close.
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Re: Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end?
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2008, 08:57:26 pm »

Not as gripping as religion is to a religious person... Not even close.

Why hello there off-topic.

Anyhow, I sort of felt pity on defeating the Ur-Quan, but when it's either your species against the other one, there's little choice in the matter.
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Re: Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end?
« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2008, 12:49:46 am »

Not as gripping as religion is to a religious person... Not even close.

Well, I guess that completely disproves my point, then! I concede to your superior experience, wisdom, knowledge of history, and knowledge of how gripping history is despite thinking it's boring.
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Resh Aleph
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Re: Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end?
« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2008, 07:30:08 am »

Not as gripping as religion is to a religious person... Not even close.

Why hello there off-topic.

Valag compared the Ur-Quan zeal to religious zeal, and I'm arguing against that comparison.

Not as gripping as religion is to a religious person... Not even close.

Well, I guess that completely disproves my point, then! I concede to your superior experience, wisdom, knowledge of history, and knowledge of how gripping history is despite thinking it's boring.

I think you're missing my point. My personal opinion about how interesting history is, is irrelevant. What I'm arguing is that divine faith has a much more profound emotional effect on people who embrace it, than any kind of knowledge (including that of what happened in the past). I'm arguing that people are naturally fascinated by the irrational. I'm arguing that you can't become a suicide bomber just because you find history to be unjust.
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Re: Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end?
« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2008, 02:09:57 pm »



I'm arguing that you can't become a suicide bomber just because you find history to be unjust.

Actually, there have been suicide bombers in Spain, purely due to political and historical reasons, anyhow, now you put it that way it makes more sense, your previous statement sounded like a miniture flame of sorts.

The Ur-Quan Kzer Ah (the green ones I think) are more political whereas the Kohr Ah are more religious, perhaps this illustrates two extremes residing inside the game?
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Re: Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end?
« Reply #23 on: January 05, 2008, 06:00:47 pm »

It just doesn't seem realistic to me that the offspring are so passionate over an historic event. I don't think this is anything like religion. Religion is mystic. People love that stuff. History is boring.

And again, even religion isn't a race's Catholic wedding, so to speak. There was a time when the whole world was religious, yet it's changed. Even in one religion, there are many different beliefs.

Not that it's realistic that entire races have the same personality... but I guess reality is boring. Tongue

I agree, the Quan seem much to coherent to be religious zealots. Zealots tend to splinter off into groups that fight eachother as much as anyone else.

Leaving all canon behind and just theorizing, maybe the Quan do something to their young to give them the "proper mindset"? Many cultures here on Earth have rites to mark ones passage into adulthood. The Quan that freed themselves were probably pretty messed up from having spent all that time in excruciators and whatnot. Maybe they devised a rite to make sure their spawn wouldn't forget the task?  To make sure the task was completed? Like say, stick them in the excruciator for a year and have them watch holo-clips from the great war of freedom. Make it as real to your spawn as it was to you.

As for the original topic, yeah I felt sorry for them. They are very tragic figures. But just because you empathise with the enemy, oyu can't leave them standing.
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Re: Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end?
« Reply #24 on: January 05, 2008, 09:26:10 pm »

1. Regarding zeal: I'd say that a solitary species which lives in a society (such as the Ur-Quan) would have, paradoxically, a strong societal inertia. New ideas would spread with great difficulty, due to the limited contact between the members of the society. To further strengthen this inertia, free thought and speech might even be legally discouraged.
Additionally, remember that the Ur-Quan were the most vulnerable to mental compulsion of all races under Dnyarri control; they're apparently quite susceptible to suggestion.

2. Regarding Luki's theory: Your theory conjures beautiful (if sadistic) pictures in my mind, but I'd say the Ur-Quan are too horripilated by the idea of someone from their species undergoing that sort of suffering again. Using the parent-child analogy, a parent who has been kept slave in his youth does not keep his children in chains to make them avoid getting enslaved at all costs.
Besides, there's this Kohr-Ah quote: "Can you imagine, alien, what it must have been like to wear an Excruciator? To live in endless screaming pain for months on end? No you cannot." Not "what it is like", but "what it must have been like", indicating that they don't actually know what it feels like.

(By the way, the Excruciator is worn, not occupied)

3. Regarding the original topic:
Pity? No. "Frustration" would me more appropriate. I always feel frustrated when the villains lose. Though of course I still kill them, 'cuz I want to watch the frikkin' credits...  Tongue
« Last Edit: January 06, 2008, 02:49:59 pm by Valaggar Redux » Logged
Lukipela
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Re: Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end?
« Reply #25 on: January 06, 2008, 04:57:06 pm »

1. Regarding zeal: I'd say that a solitary species which lives in a society (such as the Ur-Quan) would have, paradoxically, a strong societal inertia. New ideas would spread with great difficulty, due to the limited contact between the members of the society. To further strengthen this inertia, free thought and speech might even be legally discouraged.
Additionally, remember that the Ur-Quan were the most vulnerable to mental compulsion of all races under Dnyarri control; they're apparently quite susceptible to suggestion.

But seeing as they don't interact much, shouldn't that give each member of the species more time to think on their own, and question things? Limited contact places you alone with your thoughts, not a good thing I'd think. But then again, this is all loose theorizing.

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2. Regarding Luki's theory: Your theory conjures beautiful (if sadistic) pictures in my mind, but I'd say the Ur-Quan are too horripilated by the idea of someone from their species undergoing that sort of suffering again. Using the parent-child analogy, a parent who has been kept slave in his youth does not keep his children in chains to make them avoid getting enslaved at all costs.

As a slightly similar example, there are women in certain parts of Africa that are pro female circumcision, and force their daughters to go through with it even though they have had it done unto themselves, because of the way their society and culture works. Not everyone obviously, but if the Quan ritual is more persuading, who knows?

Quote
Besides, there's this Kohr-Ah quote: "Can you imagine, alien, what it must have been like to wear an Excruciator? To live in endless screaming pain for months on end? No you cannot." Not "what it is like", but "what it must have been like", indicating that they don't actually know what it feels like.

Good catch, I didn't remember that. Something else then.
(By the way, the Excruciator is worn, not occupied)
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Elerium
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Re: Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end?
« Reply #26 on: January 08, 2008, 08:18:00 pm »

Religious zealots in the game are the Ilwrath, indoctrinated from birth to death to kill in the name of D&K, except they already have a natural evil for everything. If you want to apply religion to Ur-Quan, then the Kohr-Ah's belief in reincarnation would come in here. The Kzer-Za quans zeal probably stems from wanting to protect the other species by any means necessary, that being the most obvious way by force.

Although I'd say the Ur-Quan you speak to are the old tortured ones, or they do inherit genetic memory. Probably the genetic memory I think.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2008, 08:20:37 pm by Elerium » Logged
Valaggar Redux
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Re: Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end?
« Reply #27 on: January 09, 2008, 03:36:52 pm »

But seeing as they don't interact much, shouldn't that give each member of the species more time to think on their own, and question things? Limited contact places you alone with your thoughts, not a good thing I'd think. But then again, this is all loose theorizing.

I doubt that a situation where a lot of Ur-Quan independently reach the conclusion that their Paths are flawed is really likely (as it would be contrary to all their childhood training, to everything they have done since then). And probably they're used to not challenging generally-held beliefs (i.e. they're used to thinking "Meh, the Path might be wrong after all, but who cares... I might even get lynched if I act as if the Path is wrong, so I'd rather not."). But of course, this is just loose theorizing indeed.


As a slightly similar example, there are women in certain parts of Africa that are pro female circumcision, and force their daughters to go through with it even though they have had it done unto themselves, because of the way their society and culture works. Not everyone obviously, but if the Quan ritual is more persuading, who knows?

But this is very different from what you were proposing about the Ur-Quan; those Human females weren't traumatized.
Ahhh... all this trauma talk reminds me of the Great Tragedy... when my species... AH!... broke the Ultron...
But never mind, calm yourself, Valaggar! The Ultron is once again restored to its former glory; we need not concern ourselves any longer with what was Before! Rejoice!!
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Re: Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end?
« Reply #28 on: January 13, 2008, 01:36:18 pm »

I doubt that a situation where a lot of Ur-Quan independently reach the conclusion that their Paths are flawed is really likely (as it would be contrary to all their childhood training, to everything they have done since then). And probably they're used to not challenging generally-held beliefs (i.e. they're used to thinking "Meh, the Path might be wrong after all, but who cares... I might even get lynched if I act as if the Path is wrong, so I'd rather not."). But of course, this is just loose theorizing indeed.

Heh, I'd see it as more probable that anyone left alone without the boosting herlp of group-think would start questioning their vaslues and actions. I guess we will have to ask a Ur-Quan to find out who is right Wink

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But this is very different from what you were proposing about the Ur-Quan; those Human females weren't traumatized.

Having your genitals slashed off and sewn up sounds pretty darn traumatizing to me.
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Re: Does anyone else pity the ur-quan in the end?
« Reply #29 on: January 13, 2008, 04:12:58 pm »

Heh, I'd see it as more probable that anyone left alone without the boosting herlp of group-think would start questioning their vaslues and actions. I guess we will have to ask a Ur-Quan to find out who is right Wink

Where are the Twin Gods when you need them?

Having your genitals slashed off and sewn up sounds pretty darn traumatizing to me.

Not as much as a constant stream of agony lasting for months on end would traumatize one. Not by a far shot.
Though actually, you might argue that the very fact that the trauma was so intense made them uncaring for what their offspring suffer. That they are fueled more by an irrational grudge against every other species rather than a desire to make the world a safer place for all Ur-Quan.
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