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Author Topic: The clones are coming  (Read 10346 times)
Lukipela
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Re: The clones are coming
« Reply #30 on: February 03, 2008, 06:31:14 pm »

Isn't cloning someone after the embryonic stage the whole idea?

Er, in what context? The definition of cloning that we were discussing with Draxas (if so, no), or just general sci-fi type cloning?

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I have a problem with the show riding on the popularity of superstition, and increasing it.

You'd be more honest if you just said "I vehemently dislike religion, so anything that contains it really ticks me off to the extent that I redefine genres in my head". Or do you want to explain exactly how a show about sexy psycho killer robots, nuclear holocausts, space battles and so forth is "riding on the popularity of superstition"? And a study in the number of people who have converted to "Lords of Kobolism" would go along way to showing me how it "increases superstition".

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Of course not. What's the point of getting your knickers in a twist over an internet debate?

A lot of people do though.

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Well, somewhat anyway. Some of the studies that have been done over the past few decades on identical twins show some very bizarre similarities among twins that grew up in completely different environments. But that's another topic for another day.

Sorry, sloppy phrasing on my part. Of courses the exact same genes make them similar. Even separated, they'll often be very alike. But it rarely (if ever), makes them completely identical, which is how we think of clones.

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Another trapping of sci-fi. Don't people realize that the technology and knowledge of how to do this is well beyond our grasp?

Now I'm curious. Do you often get into debates with people who think that we have such technology, or would you just like everyone to start cloning debates with the preface "I know we don't have this technology yet, but when we do"

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I'm fairly certain we still can't gestate a baby of any mammalian species without an actual surrogate mother to carry it. So, barring a species-wide mentality shift towards Tleilaxu (if you don't get the reference, please do yourself a favor and pick up the Dune series by Frank Herbert... or at least the first few, anyway), this idea of a massive clone factory is pretty farfetched.

Biotech moves forward with freaky speed. It's hard to say where we will be in 50 - 100 years.

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Hence my point. I think 99% of peoples' aversion to the idea of cloning is bred from a lack of real understainding, and being indoctrinated with all kinds of sci-fi nonsense over the years... But then, I suppose the fear of things we don't understand is a historically very human trait.

I thought your point was simply that people aren't using the strictly correct definition of clone (which you didn't either). Discussions on cloning must involve assumptions of technological leaps, otherwise there would be no discussion and we'd all just sit around reading Nature or something. It is usually better to discuss something before it happens rather than after. It makes you prepared.

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Re: The clones are coming
« Reply #31 on: February 03, 2008, 08:15:57 pm »

Hmm hmm... not much to add.

I suspect that you can use one mammalian species (if close enough) as surrogate mother for another species. So "my mommy the monkey" is possible (inaccurate though, not monkey, of course, but primate. But it doesn't rhyme as well). I might add that "Your mom is a pig" might happen too. I'm not familiar with the pig's reproductive system enough, all I know is that their hearts work.


Also, something that NO ONE here discussed since the second post, and you might be interested to know if you didn't (yey, I'm original) is this:
This "mixing" of human and pig DNA is not the mixing one thinks about. It's not half Human chromosomes and half pigs (Done with mice and humans BTW in the past for other purpose, ask me about it if you want).
What is happening is that a complete human nucleus is inserted into a pig's egg cell which have "pig's" DNA in its mitochondria!!!!
This is important, because in many ways it's just the mitochondria - those little ex-germs that we use as power stations. The fully grown creature therefore, to the best of my knowledge, will look and in fact BE exactly like a normal human.
The only possible differences will be related to power. If pig's mitochondria are less good then human's it'll be weaker, if they're better it'll be stronger. Stamina BTW, much less effect on raw lift-a-car-over-the-head strength.

BTW, I'm pretty sure that birds DO have superior mitochondria to human's. I say we move to them!
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Resh Aleph
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Re: The clones are coming
« Reply #32 on: February 03, 2008, 09:24:57 pm »

Isn't cloning someone after the embryonic stage the whole idea?

Er, in what context? The definition of cloning that we were discussing with Draxas (if so, no), or just general sci-fi type cloning?

Neither, I meant creating an embryo with an adult cell's DNA (a la Dolly). Isn't that what the original post was about?

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Or do you want to explain exactly how a show about sexy psycho killer robots, nuclear holocausts, space battles and so forth is "riding on the popularity of superstition"?

I am referring to the show's vehement obsession with God, oracles, temples, prophecies, etc.

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And a study in the number of people who have converted to "Lords of Kobolism" would go along way to showing me how it "increases superstition".

All I'm arguing is that it makes the above things more popular, even if subtly and subconsciously. It can make people find them cooler. I don't want that in sci-fi, science is opposite.
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Re: The clones are coming
« Reply #33 on: February 04, 2008, 05:35:13 pm »

Now I'm curious. Do you often get into debates with people who think that we have such technology, or would you just like everyone to start cloning debates with the preface "I know we don't have this technology yet, but when we do"

Some days, I'm amazed how pervasive ignorance is. Hell, half the basis for any political debate on this subject (or anything even remotely related; see stem cells) seems to be based in just this sort of flavor of ignorance. I don't know if things are different outside of the US in that regard, but around here it seems like conviction counts for at least as much as understanding, if not more.

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Biotech moves forward with freaky speed. It's hard to say where we will be in 50 - 100 years.

Of course. However, the announcement of something to the effect of an artificial womb would be much more alarming to me than anything that's happened regarding cloning. Combined with IVF, that would almost completely remove the "human" from "human reproduction," and I could see how that could head in ethically and morally questionable directions very quickly.

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I thought your point was simply that people aren't using the strictly correct definition of clone (which you didn't either). Discussions on cloning must involve assumptions of technological leaps, otherwise there would be no discussion and we'd all just sit around reading Nature or something. It is usually better to discuss something before it happens rather than after. It makes you prepared.

The "strict" definition thing was more or less a nitpicky, semi-humorous stab at an attempt to freak out people who are afraid of the idea of clones (or at least get people to think about the concept a little harder, anyway). THEY WALK AMONG US EVEN NOW! Or something... I've been known to have a weird sense of humor at times. Regardless, it was just an attempt to make people think about the idea of clones a little harder, because enough people are scared of the word because they associate it with sci-fi zaniness instead of the reality of what we are and are not capable of.

There will, of course, be advances in the future, but the direction of those advances is a matter of (mostly wild) speculation. Most debates on this subject seem to have a sort of "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" vibe to them: People just sort of assume that we're going to have clones growing in vats of nutrient fluid, springing forth as fully formed adults, and replacing the "real thing" without anyone noticing. Of course, these would be genetically modified supermen, who would then revolt against humankind... You can see how ludicrous this idea is just from my short description. And yet, this topic took that tack right from the first post.
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Lukipela
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Re: The clones are coming
« Reply #34 on: February 04, 2008, 08:13:46 pm »

Neither, I meant creating an embryo with an adult cell's DNA (a la Dolly). Isn't that what the original post was about?

Ah right. That's certainly what the thread was about before we veered off course.

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I am referring to the show's vehement obsession with God, oracles, temples, prophecies, etc.

Sure you're not confusing it with your own? Wink To be fair though, I've msotly seen parts of season 1 and 2, maybe the third season becomes more mystical. I thought it was a fresh take on an old genre to include not only politics, but spirituality as well.

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All I'm arguing is that it makes the above things more popular, even if subtly and subconsciously. It can make people find them cooler. I don't want that in sci-fi, science is opposite.

Ah, so you're in the same camp as people who don't want alcohol, swearing or violence portrayed in movies because it makes it seem "cool".
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Re: The clones are coming
« Reply #35 on: February 04, 2008, 09:21:01 pm »

Ah, so you're in the same camp as people who don't want alcohol, swearing or violence portrayed in movies because it makes it seem "cool".

I certainly don't like it when movies portray those things as cool. But this stuff is generally frowned upon in real life anyway.
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Re: The clones are coming
« Reply #36 on: March 04, 2008, 08:18:48 am »

The clones are coming?

The clones are here! (Or back, or somesuch...) Smiley
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Lukipela
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Re: The clones are coming
« Reply #37 on: March 06, 2008, 04:27:05 pm »

The clones are coming?

The clones are here! (Or back, or somesuch...) Smiley

Hey Dthunk. Long time no see.
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