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Author Topic: *Time* is not one but many. *Space* is many. *Colors* are many.  (Read 5587 times)
Valaggar Redux
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*Time* is not one but many. *Space* is many. *Colors* are many.
« on: March 31, 2008, 08:28:18 pm »

So let's try to make out what *space*, *time* and *colors* are. And also what *above*, *the middle*, *below*, *outside*, *in between* and *inside* are, maybe. (*Inside* doesn't seem to mean "this dimension": "I will show you the *inside*! It is so good you will never leave!" seems to indicate that The Captain has never been to *inside*; by extension, quite possibly *outside* might not mean "another dimension".) Note that *time* is also used by the Arilou:

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"Our clever ward has found our nook in *time*!"

"We are not from your space, or your... *time*. Some of your more broad thinkers refer to such realms as other dimensions. Though trivialized, this is a suitable metaphor for your intellect."

"We have never been your enemy, though your people may once have thought so. But we are also not your ally. That would require a degree of involvement in this *time* which is not presently permissible. For now, we are simply your friends... who have much to give."

"Forgive us if we forget the importance you attach to such events as this. Our... context, is infinitely broader than yours in scope, both in space and *time*."

"We are many places, at many *times*. This place is an easy place... one of the ten easy places. At different times, we explore different easy places. That is our way."

"The Dnyarri were the most inimical race this galaxy has known. In other dimensions, other *times*, there are far, far worse beings but they do not threaten you at the present time."

My own theory is viewable here.

Anybody got any other interesting ideas? Frankly, it shouldn't prove hard for you to come up with something more interesting than what I've got.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2008, 08:32:12 am by Valaggar Redux » Logged
Shiver
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Re: *Time* is not one but many. *Space* is many. *Colors* are many.
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2008, 12:10:13 am »

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So let's try to make out what *space*, *time* and *colors* are.

Those words are an abstraction of something that has not been properly defined in any human language. Except for " *time* ", which I'm pretty sure is just the Arilou putting emphasis on a word. There are no italics in Star Control.


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My own theory is viewable here.

Sorry, that's TL;DR to me. Not to get in the way of anyone that actually wants to take a crack at that wall of text.
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Re: *Time* is not one but many. *Space* is many. *Colors* are many.
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2008, 02:48:43 am »

Sort of on the subject:

I always thought that when the Orz were talking about “many bubbles”, they were referring to atoms or molecules. Perhaps “Outside” is a dimension with much different rules. Where “smell/color” has an even more powerful influence than they do here and matter and energy behave differently.
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Valaggar Redux
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Re: *Time* is not one but many. *Space* is many. *Colors* are many.
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2008, 08:50:01 am »

Except for " *time* ", which I'm pretty sure is just the Arilou putting emphasis on a word. There are no italics in Star Control.

All-caps are used for emphasis in Star Control. And really, it makes no sense to emphasize "time" in those places.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2008, 09:11:59 am by Valaggar Redux » Logged
Shiver
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Re: *Time* is not one but many. *Space* is many. *Colors* are many.
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2008, 09:16:50 am »

Quote from: Valaggar
That's the lazy man's way out. Tongue

You appear to hate short answers, even when they sum up the issue perfectly.

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Except for " *time* ", which I'm pretty sure is just the Arilou putting emphasis on a word. There are no italics in Star Control.

All-caps are used for emphasis in Star Control. And really, it makes no sense to emphasize "time" in those places.

But the Arilou at the intercom is clearly speaking of time as defined in a dictionary. If you read what he says and just accept time as time, the statement makes sense. If the italics aren't an emphasis, then they must be referring to time on a different scope than a human being would typically think of it.
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Valaggar Redux
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Re: *Time* is not one but many. *Space* is many. *Colors* are many.
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2008, 09:28:44 am »

But the Arilou at the intercom is clearly speaking of time as defined in a dictionary. If you read what he says and just accept time as time, the statement makes sense. If the italics aren't an emphasis, then they must be referring to time on a different scope than a human being would typically think of it.

It's neither clearly "time as defined in a dictionary" nor are the asterisk pairs "italics" (especially when it comes to *Nnngn*).

Now yes, of course, some of those best-fits (probably including *space* and *time* and so on) are supposed to be something incomprehensible for Humans in their current developmental stage, but that doesn't mean we can't have some fun pretending we can understand them, right?
« Last Edit: April 01, 2008, 09:31:01 am by Valaggar Redux » Logged
Shiver
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Re: *Time* is not one but many. *Space* is many. *Colors* are many.
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2008, 09:45:08 am »

Quote from: Valaggar
It's neither clearly "time as defined in a dictionary" nor are the asterisk pairs "italics" (especially when it comes to *Nnngn*).

Try substantiating that with something. The Arilou's use of the word "time" makes sense if interpreted plainly.


Quote from: Valaggar
but that doesn't mean we can't have some fun pretending we can understand them, right?

Oh, sure. I don't care much for these type of threads myself but I don't mean to condemn them across the board for everyone.
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Valaggar Redux
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Re: *Time* is not one but many. *Space* is many. *Colors* are many.
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2008, 10:01:05 am »

Quote from: Valaggar
It's neither clearly "time as defined in a dictionary" nor are the asterisk pairs "italics" (especially when it comes to *Nnngn*).

Try substantiating that with something. The Arilou's use of the word "time" makes sense if interpreted plainly.

I could, but I'm no longer interested in this thread.
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Re: *Time* is not one but many. *Space* is many. *Colors* are many.
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2008, 04:56:16 pm »

You know, I don't really get this whole idea of "things beyond human comprehension". We have language. We are curious. We can learn. We understand science/skepticism. If an advanced being cannot explain something to us (in a general way), then I suspect that one of these holds:

1. They don't really understand it themselves.
2. They don't understand our natural language.
3. They don't understand us (what we know and don't know).
4. We couldn't care less about it (we find it irrelevant and boring).

A new concept might seem completely crazy to us, but we survived some crazy stuff before (like irrational numbers, the existence of other worlds, evolution, relativity, etc.). All those "shockers" can be briefly described in just a few sentences -- without getting into details, of course, but you'd still have a pretty good idea of what they are. I don't see why a type of a dimension, or anything else that we'd be curious about, should be any different.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2008, 12:27:05 am by alephresh » Logged

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Valaggar Redux
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Re: *Time* is not one but many. *Space* is many. *Colors* are many.
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2008, 06:17:20 pm »

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You know, I don't really get this whole idea of "things beyond human comprehension".

The idea is simply that the human mind is not able to understand everything (no matter how well one explains); if we reject the existence of any entity/ies that have influenced the evolution of the humans (be it God, the Arilou or whatever -- though in the case of the Arilou, they might have some hidden purpose not to make Humans so intelligent from the very beginning), then we have reasons to doubt that our mind can't understand everything, just as a dog's mind cannot understand language, how a computer works etc. etc..

It all boils down to how flexible the brain really is. How well it can adapt to new, alien concepts.

(By the way, funny how I first make this thread, then I say myself that it bores me. Tongue)
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Elvish Pillager
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Re: *Time* is not one but many. *Space* is many. *Colors* are many.
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2008, 09:02:38 pm »

1. They don't really understand it themselves.
2. They don't understand our natural language.
3. They don't understand us (what we know and don't know).
4. We couldn't care less about it (we find it irrelevant and boring).
5. It's so complicated with respect to what we know that they have to use crude approximations. Consider explaining calculus to someone who does not understand addition.
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Re: *Time* is not one but many. *Space* is many. *Colors* are many.
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2008, 02:15:28 am »

Good points, though I think there's a discrete difference between one who practices science and one who doesn't, so I can't really buy the dog and no-arithmetic allegories.

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(By the way, funny how I first make this thread, then I say myself that it bores me. Tongue)

I agree.
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Re: *Time* is not one but many. *Space* is many. *Colors* are many.
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2008, 09:15:49 pm »

Good points, though I think there's a discrete difference between one who practices science and one who doesn't, so I can't really buy the dog and no-arithmetic allegories.
Well, I could as easily have said "algebra" rather than "addition". Besides, there are very few actual people who completely understand the theory of relativity, much less the more advanced and specific theories we haven't yet discovered.
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Re: *Time* is not one but many. *Space* is many. *Colors* are many.
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2008, 03:18:14 am »

Personally I think it's fairly simple. The concepts do not have words that adequately describe them. The concepts may be understandable, after all look at the Androsynth, but human languages can't handle them at this point so the translator glitches. Whatever word the translator picks may, or may not, have any relation to the concepts.

BTW I always took *many bubbles* to refer to individuals. The Orz are a single entity not individuals. If you stick your fingers through a sheet of paper they look like separate living objects because you can't see where they are connected. I assume the Orz are the same.
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Re: *Time* is not one but many. *Space* is many. *Colors* are many.
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2008, 04:05:43 am »

Personally I think it's fairly simple. The concepts do not have words that adequately describe them. The concepts may be understandable, after all look at the Androsynth, but human languages can't handle them at this point so the translator glitches. Whatever word the translator picks may, or may not, have any relation to the concepts.

BTW I always took *many bubbles* to refer to individuals. The Orz are a single entity not individuals. If you stick your fingers through a sheet of paper they look like separate living objects because you can't see where they are connected. I assume the Orz are the same.

Interesting. I really like that fingers/paper metaphor. That is a great interpretation.
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